Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »
I have been with this game since early Beta and have put up with a lot of stuff and had to change the way I played several times because of changes they have made with updates.
Now that they are making gaining max level mats into a grindfest, I am finding I am being forced to do things I do not enjoy to just be able to upgrade my armor to be less squishy, to keep doing what I was before (especially seeing how they nerfed everything back with IC release so you had to regain where you were previously).
Running around a zone and harvesting nodes is one of the most enjoyable things I do when I just want something relaxing to do in the game. BUT..... it is only enjoyable if I don't have to do it 10 thousand times to get the mats to make one set of armor because the nodes are so rare and a buttload of mats are required to make it.
Once a game mechanic is changed where I am then pretty much forced to grind, grind, grind like that to keep my character progression up, it is time to leave, because that is not real advancement.
I did not buy ESO to end up playing a Korean Grind MMO.
That tells me that the company is looking to keep players occupied with something because they do not have the confidence in their own product to allow it to stand for its' self.
It tells me the company is looking for a way to milk their players out of as much money as they can before players realize something really wrong is happening in the background.
It also tells me the company is paying far, far too much attention to the 1% of hard core MMO player/Guilds like Deltia's who rush through and grind 24/7 any new content that is released to get up to top gear before any one else and then sit back and whine and complain that they are bored and there is nothing to do and then come to the forums to *itch about it, when in reality it is their own fault, not ZOS'.
The result is, ZOS releasing grind mechanics like this, that will unsuccessfully try to slow these type of players down, while creating a much, much larger gap for the Casual Player, which inevitably causes those players to leave because they will not put up with this type of poorly thought out mechanic to upgrade their gear progression for very long. They will just leave.
The hope of many players, not just Casual, for Orsinium when it was released, was for it to be like any other normal zone where all nodes were scaled to V15/16, where players could farm for their mats in a reasonable way without having to deal with the PvP nonsense of IC.
It's fine if ZOS wants to implement a mechanic that requires your skill for crafting to be 10/10 to get the node so crafting means something. BUT, ALL nodes MUST still be V15/16 for those players.
ZOS needs to stop punishing Casual Players for what the minority of Hard Core players choose to do. If you as a player get bored because you decided to rush through the content, then that is your fault and not any one else's and other players should not have to be punished because of that. Unfortunately, though I think this is partially what is happening here. ZOS is trying to implement a way to keep hard core players for getting the mats to upgrade in the first week of release and it is failing hard, because those players still get it within that time frame while more and more Casual Players fall behind.
It's like the CP system argument but for Crafting Nodes, with the exception that being able to craft highest level armor actually makes a HUGE difference to your character's progression.
Like many other players, I do not mind that there is a Crown Store. I do not mind that there are pets and costumes in it. I don't mind if there are XP scrolls and potions. I don't even mind if there are motifs in it. But if selling those items, in addition to players paying for a subscription, and others paying for Crowns or even both is not raking in enough money for you, then maybe you need to look at the price of some of the things you are selling. Motifs should be much cheaper than they are. 5000 Crowns is outrageous. Though some players will pay it, not nearly as many that otherwise would if it was a more reasonable 3000 Crowns for a single motif or 5000 Crowns for both motifs from a particular DLC release.
I already made a post to ZOS about it what the need to change in regards to Node Levels on the PTS forums. @angelyn I see referred to it here so I don't want to repeat much of anything here about it.. don't need to.
I will say however, that if the reason for the super grind for mats is indeed to make it such a pain in the arse to get them so these mats can then be sold in the Crown Store for a convenience, then I will be leaving this game. It will be uninstalled at that point.. (and no you cannot have my stuffs), as it will no longer be the fun game it was PRIOR to the release of Imperial City.
I consider myself a Casual Player, though I do play almost every day for min 6hrs a day (I don't sleep well at night). My signature has my character list on it. I like trying out different characters, BUT I don't like rushing through content. I prefer to take my sweet ole' time and enjoy it. Once I have finished content for one character, I like to go and do it with another, or for a short amount of time go and level up an ALT for a short time and then go back and do it so it is fresh again.
With the mechanics for gaining mats like have been released in IC and right now with Orsinium, it means I have no choice but to spend most of my time, grinding and grinding and grinding and grinding to get the mats I need for not only that 1 character, but to eventually save up for ALL my characters when they reach max level so that they can do things properly when they reach that content, so they are not gimped. I have 8 characters... 1 at max, the 2nd near. 2 more in vet levels now... That is far too much future grinding for max level mats.. and unless ZOS changes the number that are required to make the armor... it is only going to get worse with each DLC.
That is not the ESO I paid for to play.... But it is the ESO this game is becoming, and it is the ESO I am going to forced to leave as that ESO is not fun.Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »The whole set up of the VR15-VR16 grind for mats makes me worry about what it is they want to do to 'alleviate' our grind issues.
F2P games typically do this so that they can introduce specific items to their Microtransaction Store that will drive up sales. Star Trek Onlines Crafting System with their R&D Boxes in the C-Store for example. There is a lot of things that make their Crafting System different ESOs. But the demand for mats is so high in that game that people turn to their C-Store for the boxes to alleviate the need for their RNG style Crafting System. Its quite possible that ZOS wants to make these mats hard to obtain so that when they think we are as frustrated as they want us. They can introduce their own Crafting Mats to the Store. Of course there will be a Firestorm on the Forums. But what everyone wont see is the hordes of players spending their Crowns on these Mats.
I hope Im wrong. But from what it sounds like theyre going in that direction. With the excuse that 'its for convenience'.
Here are a couple of things I'd like to point out:
It's not F2P, it's B2P. They need to stop using my sub dollars to create new ways to further gouge us.
And you say "Of course there will be a Firestorm on the Forums. But what everyone wont see is the hordes of players spending their Crowns on these Mats."
I would simply respond by saying: Folks also won't see all of the current players, and subscribers, simply disappear from the game, due to the forced frustration mechanics either.
I came here from many years playing other games with this forced grind nonsense.
I came here, and stayed here (since early release), because the grind, and treadmill gameplay, were *not* here.
If they are, indeed, trying to get us "as frustrated as they want us", then I, and my guild, will be long gone.
We just want to have fun while playing, and we want to have ample time to play with our friends.
That's not too much to, literally, demand from a game.
Sincerely,
~GTech_1
I agree with you GTech.
I have been with this game since early Beta and have put up with a lot of stuff and had to change the way I played several times because of changes they have made with updates.
Now that they are making gaining max level mats into a grindfest, I am finding I am being forced to do things I do not enjoy to just be able to upgrade my armor to be less squishy, to keep doing what I was before (especially seeing how they nerfed everything back with IC release so you had to regain where you were previously).
Running around a zone and harvesting nodes is one of the most enjoyable things I do when I just want something relaxing to do in the game. BUT..... it is only enjoyable if I don't have to do it 10 thousand times to get the mats to make one set of armor because the nodes are so rare and a buttload of mats are required to make it.
Once a game mechanic is changed where I am then pretty much forced to grind, grind, grind like that to keep my character progression up, it is time to leave, because that is not real advancement.
I did not buy ESO to end up playing a Korean Grind MMO.
That tells me that the company is looking to keep players occupied with something because they do not have the confidence in their own product to allow it to stand for its' self.
It tells me the company is looking for a way to milk their players out of as much money as they can before players realize something really wrong is happening in the background.
It also tells me the company is paying far, far too much attention to the 1% of hard core MMO player/Guilds like Deltia's who rush through and grind 24/7 any new content that is released to get up to top gear before any one else and then sit back and whine and complain that they are bored and there is nothing to do and then come to the forums to *itch about it, when in reality it is their own fault, not ZOS'.
The result is, ZOS releasing grind mechanics like this, that will unsuccessfully try to slow these type of players down, while creating a much, much larger gap for the Casual Player, which inevitably causes those players to leave because they will not put up with this type of poorly thought out mechanic to upgrade their gear progression for very long. They will just leave.
The hope of many players, not just Casual, for Orsinium when it was released, was for it to be like any other normal zone where all nodes were scaled to V15/16, where players could farm for their mats in a reasonable way without having to deal with the PvP nonsense of IC.
It's fine if ZOS wants to implement a mechanic that requires your skill for crafting to be 10/10 to get the node so crafting means something. BUT, ALL nodes MUST still be V15/16 for those players.
ZOS needs to stop punishing Casual Players for what the minority of Hard Core players choose to do. If you as a player get bored because you decided to rush through the content, then that is your fault and not any one else's and other players should not have to be punished because of that. Unfortunately, though I think this is partially what is happening here. ZOS is trying to implement a way to keep hard core players for getting the mats to upgrade in the first week of release and it is failing hard, because those players still get it within that time frame while more and more Casual Players fall behind.
It's like the CP system argument but for Crafting Nodes, with the exception that being able to craft highest level armor actually makes a HUGE difference to your character's progression.
Like many other players, I do not mind that there is a Crown Store. I do not mind that there are pets and costumes in it. I don't mind if there are XP scrolls and potions. I don't even mind if there are motifs in it. But if selling those items, in addition to players paying for a subscription, and others paying for Crowns or even both is not raking in enough money for you, then maybe you need to look at the price of some of the things you are selling. Motifs should be much cheaper than they are. 5000 Crowns is outrageous. Though some players will pay it, not nearly as many that otherwise would if it was a more reasonable 3000 Crowns for a single motif or 5000 Crowns for both motifs from a particular DLC release.
I already made a post to ZOS about it what the need to change in regards to Node Levels on the PTS forums. @angelyn I see referred to it here so I don't want to repeat much of anything here about it.. don't need to.
I will say however, that if the reason for the super grind for mats is indeed to make it such a pain in the arse to get them so these mats can then be sold in the Crown Store for a convenience, then I will be leaving this game. It will be uninstalled at that point.. (and no you cannot have my stuffs), as it will no longer be the fun game it was PRIOR to the release of Imperial City.
I consider myself a Casual Player, though I do play almost every day for min 6hrs a day (I don't sleep well at night). My signature has my character list on it. I like trying out different characters, BUT I don't like rushing through content. I prefer to take my sweet ole' time and enjoy it. Once I have finished content for one character, I like to go and do it with another, or for a short amount of time go and level up an ALT for a short time and then go back and do it so it is fresh again.
With the mechanics for gaining mats like have been released in IC and right now with Orsinium, it means I have no choice but to spend most of my time, grinding and grinding and grinding and grinding to get the mats I need for not only that 1 character, but to eventually save up for ALL my characters when they reach max level so that they can do things properly when they reach that content, so they are not gimped. I have 8 characters... 1 at max, the 2nd near. 2 more in vet levels now... That is far too much future grinding for max level mats.. and unless ZOS changes the number that are required to make the armor... it is only going to get worse with each DLC.
That is not the ESO I paid for to play.... But it is the ESO this game is becoming, and it is the ESO I am going to forced to leave as that ESO is not fun.
Agreed 100%... I am putting in an average of 4 or 5 hours a day on this game right now and it is my only game. However, moving more and more into a grind is not what I'm looking for in my entertainment. Up to this point it had been one of my greatest gaming experiences thus far (and at 35yrs.. I've had a lot.) ZOS needs to sit up and take notice of what is being said by players who are serious but cant engage at the level of players like you mention in your post (half of whom are getting paid to play the game, or should be.)
The game shines (in spite of the bugs) in the rich environments and storylines... Combat and play are exciting and fun... Crafting is (was?) rewarding... We dont constantly need new levels and new mats. I am excited for Orsinium, but i was also shocked how close it comes on the heels of the IC update. While I am looking forward to the new content, you should realize that we don't need constant heaps and heaps of new content to keep playing the game. And we absolutely do not need repetitive, time consuming grinds that go on for 40 hours... I'm averaging about 5 items of each type an hour in the IC... And at that rate... I don't even want to think about it.
Please don't make the game a job for people who aren't treating it like a job... And please don't use the crown store as a release valve for the grind. Normalize the crafting nodes on V16 mats or make them stealable on level... And please let writs remain feasible for those of us taking the time to do them!
Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »The whole set up of the VR15-VR16 grind for mats makes me worry about what it is they want to do to 'alleviate' our grind issues.
F2P games typically do this so that they can introduce specific items to their Microtransaction Store that will drive up sales. Star Trek Onlines Crafting System with their R&D Boxes in the C-Store for example. There is a lot of things that make their Crafting System different ESOs. But the demand for mats is so high in that game that people turn to their C-Store for the boxes to alleviate the need for their RNG style Crafting System. Its quite possible that ZOS wants to make these mats hard to obtain so that when they think we are as frustrated as they want us. They can introduce their own Crafting Mats to the Store. Of course there will be a Firestorm on the Forums. But what everyone wont see is the hordes of players spending their Crowns on these Mats.
I hope Im wrong. But from what it sounds like theyre going in that direction. With the excuse that 'its for convenience'.
Here are a couple of things I'd like to point out:
It's not F2P, it's B2P. They need to stop using my sub dollars to create new ways to further gouge us.
And you say "Of course there will be a Firestorm on the Forums. But what everyone wont see is the hordes of players spending their Crowns on these Mats."
I would simply respond by saying: Folks also won't see all of the current players, and subscribers, simply disappear from the game, due to the forced frustration mechanics either.
I came here from many years playing other games with this forced grind nonsense.
I came here, and stayed here (since early release), because the grind, and treadmill gameplay, were *not* here.
If they are, indeed, trying to get us "as frustrated as they want us", then I, and my guild, will be long gone.
We just want to have fun while playing, and we want to have ample time to play with our friends.
That's not too much to, literally, demand from a game.
Sincerely,
~GTech_1
I love that the mats are hard to get and you need a lot.
It gives me a sense of worthwhile progression instead of just being able to craft the best gear so easily.
I always found it annoying that you can craft some of the best gear. At least now need to actually work for it. Kudos to the change!
Agreed. Itemization in IC is the best thing that ever happened to ESO. There's finally actually a point to doing things, and even white grade trash loot is worthwhile. Previously, you could make endgame gear starting at level ~40 for little to no money, which made anything but grinding exp for vet ranks and cp pointless. Now with something to work for, there are much more viable activities, not the least because gold is more useful to buy the new materials. You can just play the game how you want - PvP, solo PvE, group PvE, questing, gathering, crafting, stealing, etc - and use the gold you make to gear up. If you feel "forced to grind", you just have yourself to blame for making the game miserable for you.
I've been playing in IC sewers and some group dungeons for about 4 weeks after release for no more than 3 hours per day, and if I traded all my materials in for 1 type I could easily make a full V16 set for one character. That is not too rare, it really isn't. Especially Rubedite Ingots are very abundant. And with the lowered cost for materials from Tel Var vendors coming with Orsinium, I could make another full set using my stocked up TV stones. Not to mention that you will get VR15/16 gear in Orsinium to deconstruct without the fear of getting ganked like in IC. The new crafting nodes are just the icing on the cake.
And if that's still too much for you, stick with VR15 gear. That's what it's for.
Feels like the end game for ESO is giving you reasons to quit playing.
PlagueMonk wrote: »I don't know if this has been mentioned but WHY on earth do all the V16 mobs that can be skinned only drop VOID leather scraps? Would really be nice if those mobs left rubedo scraps behind.
Then do that. Nobody is forcing you to do anything else, everything you listed can be gotten with gold which you can acquire almost anywhere. Especially in the beginning, questing is a major source for gold. And if you like exploring, you should have no problem collecting mats along the way.
Dalsinthus wrote: »The change to writs is particularly terrible. They're an unpleasant chore on Live now;
Grandsupercoder wrote: »As a dedicated crafter since console launch, I will not be surprise if the reason these mats are made rare is so that they could perhaps make it a crown store option ( like glass and malachite ) one day. I could be wrong but Imagine that?
pelennor_fields wrote: »@Nénlindë. If I join ESO plus plus will I still get to see my favorite part of the IC update?
"This may be an unusually long load time."
I mean, $30 motifs are awesome but i don't know if I could live without that on every load screen.
DaveMoeDee wrote: »
Grandsupercoder wrote: »As a dedicated crafter since console launch, I will not be surprise if the reason these mats are made rare is so that they could perhaps make it a crown store option ( like glass and malachite ) one day. I could be wrong but Imagine that?
No... No.... Don't give them ideas now...
Ourorboros wrote: »
Don't give them ideas??!! Why do think the grinds have been implemented? Surely you are not buying the party line about making the game more challenging, so we'll feel 'rewarded' after spending thousands of hours grinding? The point to the new grind is to drive crown store sales, directly or indirectly. Maybe the mat rarity is a PTS bug, but if it is still the same low rate on 11/2, you have confirmation of the Crown Store Grind Theory.
I understand what you are sayingAnd everyone is entitled to their own viewpoint. For me, a casual player, crafting used to be fun. I don't enjoy the grind and RNG that is replacing the old system , especially if the only reason for the implementation of said new system is to drive players to the crown store.
For your average PVE casual, we used to be able to grab nodes while questing and be able to craft ourselves some gear. Whether or not this is correct im not debating. This is the crafting system that has been there since the beginning of the game. Ive been enjoying that system since beta. Paying my sub for the game that i enjoy playing since beta.
On PTS, it has taken some people 4 hours to find 3 nodes. Or if they have found nodes, 90% of them were not V16, despite having maxed out the crafting passive. Using this mat/node per hour rate:
If the game had advertised that they would either have/introduce a korean style grind for crafting, I never would have bought it. It was sold to me as something different, and I dont like the direction it's heading. Hence why I'm providing this feedback. If they continue with this, players like me will uninstall. Some players may like the korean grind style , but I doubt many who purchased ESO would have, if it was made clear that this is the direction the game would take.
-snip-I don't really see how one can be so unlucky, except heavy competition by other people gathering materials. I easily collect a dozen ores just riding around Wrothgar, admiring the landscape, and I don't stop at nodes all that often (Heavy Sacks drop them, too). Without Keen Eye even. So I can't really agree with your math there.-snip-