Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

You're joking right? What PvE build in their right mind would use crit rush as a source of DPS? Meanwhile Blockade of Elements is one of the best AoE DoT's in game, it does great damage and now gives free weaving damage. The Maelstrom 2h weapons will only ever be used in PvP or by shoddy PvE quest builds. All of the stamina weapons are looking to be insanely weak in PvE with the exception of MAYBE the bow. All in all, all of the new unique weapons are extremely lack luster, as well as most of the unique armor sets that drop from them. There are simply better sets that already exist in game for the most part. Truly disappointing.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

You're joking right? What PvE build in their right mind would use crit rush as a source of DPS? Meanwhile Blockade of Elements is one of the best AoE DoT's in game, it does great damage and now gives free weaving damage. The Maelstrom 2h weapons will only ever be used in PvP or by shoddy PvE quest builds. All of the stamina weapons are looking to be insanely weak in PvE with the exception of MAYBE the bow. All in all, all of the new unique weapons are extremely lack luster, as well as most of the unique armor sets that drop from them. There are simply better sets that already exist in game for the most part. Truly disappointing.

So you're ok with it adding an almost 3k dot in PvP that can be kept up constantly and is basically free given normal circumstances in PvP? That's more damage than fighting a DK in his standard. Am I to understand that PvP balance issues are not important because you do not PvP?

Seeing that these weapons drop from a PvE instanced area, I don't think they we're really looked at in a PvP situation. Keep in mind that the dot applied by the maelstrom 2h is succeptable to thick skinned, armor effiency, and physical mitigation, so that big number is actually much much smaller in pvp. Oh, and battle spirit. Your whole argument just became a lot less believable. Let's look at it numbers wise.
14514 at MAXIMUM efficiency as the weapon is golded and level capped. Apply battle spirit and it is now 7257 over 5 seconds. Lets say the average PvP has about 10k armor and spell resist, when in fact most good pvpers have much much more. 10k armor = 15.15(repeating)% physical damage reduction, so that 7257 is now 6157. Now lets apply thick skinned, which is another 25% damage reduction on dots at 100 points. Now we're at 4618 damage over 5 seconds. Less than 1000 dps on an ability that you have to go out of your way to create a gap to constantly reuse. Not to mention if you're smart enough you're going to try and be in this guy's face, instead of letting him run away all day.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

glavius wrote: »

few people will have much in thick skinned with 501 CP cap....

Regardless my point still stands that in PvP its going to be much weaker than what OP first thought. My calculations were extremely lax and there are even more ways to reduce the damage from it without having to spec specifically into reducing it. As I said most PvPers have much more armor than 10k, so the base mitigation for not only this enchant, but all other similar damage sources are going to be reduced much more. It's so easy to just jump the gun and cry OP before you sit back and think about it, and that's exactly why ESO has devolved into a nerf fest and now everyone is hurting because of it. Instead of players evaluating and examining what's going on, they simply pout and demand nerfs. Eventually ESO is going to be a bunch of people with oven mits on their fists and instead of swords and staves we'll have balloon animals and nerf guns.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

You're joking right? What PvE build in their right mind would use crit rush as a source of DPS? Meanwhile Blockade of Elements is one of the best AoE DoT's in game, it does great damage and now gives free weaving damage. The Maelstrom 2h weapons will only ever be used in PvP or by shoddy PvE quest builds. All of the stamina weapons are looking to be insanely weak in PvE with the exception of MAYBE the bow. All in all, all of the new unique weapons are extremely lack luster, as well as most of the unique armor sets that drop from them. There are simply better sets that already exist in game for the most part. Truly disappointing.

Oh no, if the numbers shown in the tooltip are correct, then 2 hand maelstrom will be very useful in PvE, too. You can Wrecking Blow from far enough away to charge and increase the distance again during the next cast time, not to mention not every boss just stands in one place, so this makes Crit Rush actually a useful ability then.

From what I saw, the Maelstrom dagger looks pretty good as well, clearly intended to be used for Flurry spam.

The master 1h's only increase the damage of your next casted Stamina based DoT which is only Rending Slashes, so it forces you to use two skill to utilize a single enchant. Not to mention flurry (and wrecking blow for that matter)is only utilized by stam sorcs since they lack a class abilitiy to spam. No templar, nb, or soon to be DK would use flurry over jabs/surprise/incoming stam whip. It would be a massive DPS loss just to utilize these underwhelming weapons.

And in a DPS situation, using crit rush is extremely lack luster. It locks you into a long winded animation that prevents you from continuing your rotation, and requires you to back away from your target to cast, preventing all damage done again. Maybe it'll be nice in Maelstrom, but I really don't see the point in using an item from a dungeon, that only helps you do that same dungeon better. In trials or other 4 mans, no competitive build is going to use any of these weapons with the exception of the Resto+Destro staff, and *maybe* the bow, if it operates the way I think it does. Obviously I'm speaking mainly from a min max stand point.

Teargrants wrote: »

You're just grasping at straws here.

- How does the wep being dropped through PvE have anything to do with considering or not considering the balance in PvP? Every dropped set in the game outside of the PvP reward boxes drops from, you guessed it, PvE.
The devs often design item sets for specific purposes. Most PvP bound sets are more desired in PvP than PvE, and vice versa. It should be no surprise that sometimes they overlook how one may be used in the other scenario
- How does the dot being affected by CP passives mean it's ok that this dot deals more dmg than ultimates like standard/meteor? Every other dot in the game is also affected by those passives.
- Because its over FIVE SECONDS. Meteor may hit for 2k-3k less, but it is instant up front damage. Oh and the DoT would easily put meteor ahead, same with banner.
- Affected by Battle Spirit? Have you tested that? Because there are a number of sets that are not at all affected by Battle Spirit, such as Shield Breaker - that still does 2k dmg to players in Cyrodiil.
- Every set that is unaffected by Battle Spirit has been specifically stated so in patch notes, if it is not then they either missed the documentation of it, or overlooked it
- You're basing your argument on people having 100 points in Thick Skinned? Please don't make me laugh, between Block Expertise, Bastion, and the 501 CP cap, NO ONE will be putting 100 points in Thick Skinned.
Not 100, but still some. Keep in mind Thick skinned isn't the only CP passive that can reduce damage from this.
- Your last point simply shows a lack of experience in PvP. It is impossible to prevent someone from getting the 5m distance they need to crit rush you by staying "in this guy's face".
- As a pure melee build I assure you the only time I let my opponent leave a 5m range is if I'm trying to run away or they have used something like streak/cloak/fear. It's easy to not let someone leave my range when I have access to ambush :^)

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

You're just grasping at straws here.

- How does the wep being dropped through PvE have anything to do with considering or not considering the balance in PvP? Every dropped set in the game outside of the PvP reward boxes drops from, you guessed it, PvE.
The devs often design item sets for specific purposes. Most PvP bound sets are more desired in PvP than PvE, and vice versa. It should be no surprise that sometimes they overlook how one may be used in the other scenario
- How does the dot being affected by CP passives mean it's ok that this dot deals more dmg than ultimates like standard/meteor? Every other dot in the game is also affected by those passives.
- Because its over FIVE SECONDS. Meteor may hit for 2k-3k less, but it is instant up front damage. Oh and the DoT would easily put meteor ahead, same with banner.
- Affected by Battle Spirit? Have you tested that? Because there are a number of sets that are not at all affected by Battle Spirit, such as Shield Breaker - that still does 2k dmg to players in Cyrodiil.
- Every set that is unaffected by Battle Spirit has been specifically stated so in patch notes, if it is not then they either missed the documentation of it, or overlooked it
- You're basing your argument on people having 100 points in Thick Skinned? Please don't make me laugh, between Block Expertise, Bastion, and the 501 CP cap, NO ONE will be putting 100 points in Thick Skinned.
Not 100, but still some. Keep in mind Thick skinned isn't the only CP passive that can reduce damage from this.
- Your last point simply shows a lack of experience in PvP. It is impossible to prevent someone from getting the 5m distance they need to crit rush you by staying "in this guy's face".
- As a pure melee build I assure you the only time I let my opponent leave a 5m range is if I'm trying to run away or they have used something like streak/cloak/fear. It's easy to not let someone leave my range when I have access to ambush :^)

I'm grasping at straws? Please, your argument has so many inconsistencies a preschooler could point them out.

Rayste wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

You're just grasping at straws here.

- How does the wep being dropped through PvE have anything to do with considering or not considering the balance in PvP? Every dropped set in the game outside of the PvP reward boxes drops from, you guessed it, PvE.
The devs often design item sets for specific purposes. Most PvP bound sets are more desired in PvP than PvE, and vice versa. It should be no surprise that sometimes they overlook how one may be used in the other scenario
- How does the dot being affected by CP passives mean it's ok that this dot deals more dmg than ultimates like standard/meteor? Every other dot in the game is also affected by those passives.
- Because its over FIVE SECONDS. Meteor may hit for 2k-3k less, but it is instant up front damage. Oh and the DoT would easily put meteor ahead, same with banner.
- Affected by Battle Spirit? Have you tested that? Because there are a number of sets that are not at all affected by Battle Spirit, such as Shield Breaker - that still does 2k dmg to players in Cyrodiil.
- Every set that is unaffected by Battle Spirit has been specifically stated so in patch notes, if it is not then they either missed the documentation of it, or overlooked it
- You're basing your argument on people having 100 points in Thick Skinned? Please don't make me laugh, between Block Expertise, Bastion, and the 501 CP cap, NO ONE will be putting 100 points in Thick Skinned.
Not 100, but still some. Keep in mind Thick skinned isn't the only CP passive that can reduce damage from this.
- Your last point simply shows a lack of experience in PvP. It is impossible to prevent someone from getting the 5m distance they need to crit rush you by staying "in this guy's face".
- As a pure melee build I assure you the only time I let my opponent leave a 5m range is if I'm trying to run away or they have used something like streak/cloak/fear. It's easy to not let someone leave my range when I have access to ambush :^)

I'm grasping at straws? Please, your argument has so many inconsistencies a preschooler could point them out.

What's the issue? You cant seriously be defending that 2hnder passive in particular. I would question your motives and your sanity if you are. I actually think it is so OP its comical. Where is my LOL button?

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

You're joking right? What PvE build in their right mind would use crit rush as a source of DPS? Meanwhile Blockade of Elements is one of the best AoE DoT's in game, it does great damage and now gives free weaving damage. The Maelstrom 2h weapons will only ever be used in PvP or by shoddy PvE quest builds. All of the stamina weapons are looking to be insanely weak in PvE with the exception of MAYBE the bow. All in all, all of the new unique weapons are extremely lack luster, as well as most of the unique armor sets that drop from them. There are simply better sets that already exist in game for the most part. Truly disappointing.

Oh no, if the numbers shown in the tooltip are correct, then 2 hand maelstrom will be very useful in PvE, too. You can Wrecking Blow from far enough away to charge and increase the distance again during the next cast time, not to mention not every boss just stands in one place, so this makes Crit Rush actually a useful ability then.

From what I saw, the Maelstrom dagger looks pretty good as well, clearly intended to be used for Flurry spam.

The master 1h's only increase the damage of your next casted Stamina based DoT which is only Rending Slashes, so it forces you to use two skill to utilize a single enchant. Not to mention flurry (and wrecking blow for that matter)is only utilized by stam sorcs since they lack a class abilitiy to spam. No templar, nb, or soon to be DK would use flurry over jabs/surprise/incoming stam whip. It would be a massive DPS loss just to utilize these underwhelming weapons.

And in a DPS situation, using crit rush is extremely lack luster. It locks you into a long winded animation that prevents you from continuing your rotation, and requires you to back away from your target to cast, preventing all damage done again. Maybe it'll be nice in Maelstrom, but I really don't see the point in using an item from a dungeon, that only helps you do that same dungeon better. In trials or other 4 mans, no competitive build is going to use any of these weapons with the exception of the Resto+Destro staff, and *maybe* the bow, if it operates the way I think it does. Obviously I'm speaking mainly from a min max stand point.

I didn't read the stamina limit on the daggers, are you sure it doesn't apply to any single target dot?

applies to any DoT effect, or so it says(knowing ZoS I wouldn't be surprised if it was bugged and only applied to a few things), and also provides spell damage. But what caster is going to use flurry...? Also requires 2 of them to have a garunteed proc chance.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Rayste wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

You're just grasping at straws here.

- How does the wep being dropped through PvE have anything to do with considering or not considering the balance in PvP? Every dropped set in the game outside of the PvP reward boxes drops from, you guessed it, PvE.
The devs often design item sets for specific purposes. Most PvP bound sets are more desired in PvP than PvE, and vice versa. It should be no surprise that sometimes they overlook how one may be used in the other scenario
- How does the dot being affected by CP passives mean it's ok that this dot deals more dmg than ultimates like standard/meteor? Every other dot in the game is also affected by those passives.
- Because its over FIVE SECONDS. Meteor may hit for 2k-3k less, but it is instant up front damage. Oh and the DoT would easily put meteor ahead, same with banner.
- Affected by Battle Spirit? Have you tested that? Because there are a number of sets that are not at all affected by Battle Spirit, such as Shield Breaker - that still does 2k dmg to players in Cyrodiil.
- Every set that is unaffected by Battle Spirit has been specifically stated so in patch notes, if it is not then they either missed the documentation of it, or overlooked it
- You're basing your argument on people having 100 points in Thick Skinned? Please don't make me laugh, between Block Expertise, Bastion, and the 501 CP cap, NO ONE will be putting 100 points in Thick Skinned.
Not 100, but still some. Keep in mind Thick skinned isn't the only CP passive that can reduce damage from this.
- Your last point simply shows a lack of experience in PvP. It is impossible to prevent someone from getting the 5m distance they need to crit rush you by staying "in this guy's face".
- As a pure melee build I assure you the only time I let my opponent leave a 5m range is if I'm trying to run away or they have used something like streak/cloak/fear. It's easy to not let someone leave my range when I have access to ambush :^)

I'm grasping at straws? Please, your argument has so many inconsistencies a preschooler could point them out.

What's the issue? You cant seriously be defending that 2hnder passive in particular. I would question your motives and your sanity if you are. I actually think it is so OP its comical. Where is my LOL button?

I'm defending it because in the context ZoS intended it to be used for, it is extremely lack luster to a min maxer or DPS player who's actually, I don't know, good at this game? Maybe it's because I spend more time theory crafting builds and the efficiency of sets and weapons in game than you probably even play? I regarded to this being extremely weak in a PvE situation, and then notified OP that he was overlooking other variables that greatly reduce the efficiency of this enchant in particular. The only questionable sanity here is how much we all give a damn about this. Let's wait for some people to actually get the item and use it before we say its OP. Maybe I'll be proven wrong too!