Guild Traders is a Corrupt And Invalid System WE Need a Mega Auction House

charisma316 · October 2015

zornyan wrote: »

Erm people easily make millions from guild traders, a friend of mine has been grinding ic since ps4 release and he's up to about 2.4 million in profit from selling in the guild store.

That's just one person. Admittedly he's a lucky git as hrs managed to get several agility sets. But it's easily doable.

in one week? think before you post

it was said that when a guild spends millions per week you cannot garner millions in sale per week not over months and months

Xendyn · October 2015

Sounds like this speaks more to your console community than it does to a game system. Ya'll seem to have more creative scammers than we do on PC.

Jumping in between players to steal bites
Selling bites and gold on Ebay for real cash
Trade window manipulation to rip people off

Now this.

Trade guilds are fine. The major one I'm in does raffles which I have won a few times. We keep a good spot in Rawhl without much problem.

See to your people rather than blaming the game. If you leave these guilds and join better ones, they will collapse and no longer be a problem.

MikeB · October 2015

People are confused, what most people mean when they say Trade guilds are robbing you, is that they take in 2k-5k a week in required fee's from their 400k-500k members AND they also get whatever amount from the total sales (what most of you are arguing doesnt pay for the Kiosk). You add these amounts up and a large trade guild takes in 800,000+Sales Tax to 2,500,000+Sales Tax a week from its members. On Average a popular trader goes for around 1m, so the guild that takes in 2.5m+ a week in fee's and taxes still has 1.5m left over, where does that go? It doesnt go to raffles, no weekly or monthly raffle equals the excess gold taken in per week. They only need to collect fee's every other week to get their trader at ~1m gold and would still have extra. Can you honestly tell me that EVERY trade guild does not pocket some, not even a small amount, here or there? If they dont take ALL the extra gold after the Trader is purchased. This is on console, I cannot speak for PC. Console has a larger population of scumbags than PC.

Potenza · October 2015

I am in four trading guilds.

I don't play the raffles.
I don't donate money and refuse to pay fees to be a member.

The guild makes money off my sales.

The guild needs you more than you need them - if they require a fee - find another guild.

PinoZino · October 2015

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

This is one of the reasons I avoid Trader Guilds and large Guilds all together. Just recently left a Guild that decided it wanted a 1k Rent weekly from members. They claimed that this 1k per week would go towards mats for Armor for members. And that members would be able to ask for a free set of armor from Guild Approved Crafters (all of which were Officers). On top of this they also ran Raffles with no interest in a Guild Store.

This all sounds fine until you start to do the math. The Guild in question had approximately 100 active Guild Members. Thats 100k a week. 400k a month. And 4.8 million a year. How often do you think a member is going to ask for armor? If they even need to ask for it since they may already be working on their own crafting.

Top that off with the average member of the Guild having zero access to the Guild Bank. So theres no means of actually knowing if the Guild Bank itself is filled to the brim with mats or if that Gold is being siphoned into the Officers pockets.

Every guild member can check the "withdrawal and deposit" history of a guild. You can see who took or delivered gold and how much.

PinoZino · October 2015

j.murro2ub17_ESO wrote: »

So your saying diablo is a mmo?
Diablo is filled with hacked and modded gear. So ya guess the markets would be similar. lol

A massively multiplayer online game (MMO or MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played over a network, such as the Internet.[1] MMOs usually have at least one persistent world, however some games differ. These games can be found for most network-capable platforms, including the personal computer, video game console, or smartphones and other mobile devices.

MMOGs can enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world. They include a variety of gameplay types, representing many video game genres.

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game

Seems to me that Diablo is a MMO, but another genre as ESO.

Even if Diablo was a car game, the context would be the same.

You have evidence that the Auction House was hacked or modded?

The top-dog of Diablo said it was just a bad idea, they don't talk about hacks and mods.

Callous2208 · October 2015

I wish ESO wasn't the only mmo currently out right now. This one thing, which is not bugged or broken, but in fact intended to be the economic system that this game uses, has caused me such stress and undo grief that I want to quit the game and kick my dog. If only mmo's were more popular and others existed for me to live out my fantasies of playing on a virtual Auction House. I've scoured the interwebs and this is indeed the only mmo that exists, so the only logical thing to do is to cry and make up horror stories about how an in game economic system hurt me emotionally and physically. Sigh, I just, I just don't know what to do with myself in a game without a global auction house.

StrykerTheElite · October 2015

I run a guild trader (traders united ) My wife and I put close 1.5 million in bids to keep guild traders only couple weeks we been asking for 500 gold a week. Which is very small while I am dumping in guild bank 50-100k a day. So there are scams yes and there are real ones.

Makkir · October 2015

I love this argument, all 6 million of these threads that have popped up since Beta from the instant gratification crowd.

There is a generation of MMO gamers who sold stuff in the Commonlands (EQ), and then there's generation of MMO gamers who sold stuff on WoW's Auction house. An AH might have worked fine in WoW, but that doesn't mean it will work here. There is a huge problem with the current in game economy and an auction house would only further that problem. For one, a ton of players are sitting on millions of gold with nothing but food and potions to spend it on. For another, gear doesn't degrade (consumed) and doesn't need to be replaced on a regular basis meaning you can buy or craft your gear and not have to ever replace it (unless more Vet levels).

The addition of an auction house would only be a convenience addition, and would degrade the in game economy to a point no one would be able to sell anything and everyone would be sitting on heaps of gold with no real gold sinks. The only way a global AH would work in this game is with the addition of a lot more consumables and a more crafter-centric economy.

Last argument, some players find their definition of enjoyable content as shopping/bargaining/crafting. Just because you don't feel like dropping an hour or two shopping every guild vendor in Tamriel to find exactly what you are looking for doesn't mean that experience isn't valuable to someone else. Not to mention, prices will suddenly be streamlined instead of all over the place like they are right now. And believe it or not, that's a good thing in a game with no real gold sinks.

StrykerTheElite · October 2015

Callous2208 wrote: »

I wish ESO wasn't the only mmo currently out right now. This one thing, which is not bugged or broken, but in fact intended to be the economic system that this game uses, has caused me such stress and undo grief that I want to quit the game and kick my dog. If only mmo's were more popular and others existed for me to live out my fantasies of playing on a virtual Auction House. I've scoured the interwebs and this is indeed the only mmo that exists, so the only logical thing to do is to cry and make up horror stories about how an in game economic system hurt me emotionally and physically. Sigh, I just, I just don't know what to do with myself in a game without a global auction house.

you want a global auction house make one, step one join 4 guild traders.
step 2 make alt accounts and have them join 4 different guild traders x10
Then step 3 make your own guild that everyone is tied to, there you have your auction house.

Elder_III · October 2015

charisma316 wrote: »

*Lots of Rage was snipped here.*

Dude, you need to eat a Snickers.

Callous2208 · October 2015

StrykerTheElite wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

I wish ESO wasn't the only mmo currently out right now. This one thing, which is not bugged or broken, but in fact intended to be the economic system that this game uses, has caused me such stress and undo grief that I want to quit the game and kick my dog. If only mmo's were more popular and others existed for me to live out my fantasies of playing on a virtual Auction House. I've scoured the interwebs and this is indeed the only mmo that exists, so the only logical thing to do is to cry and make up horror stories about how an in game economic system hurt me emotionally and physically. Sigh, I just, I just don't know what to do with myself in a game without a global auction house.

you want a global auction house make one, step one join 4 guild traders.
step 2 make alt accounts and have them join 4 different guild traders x10
Then step 3 make your own guild that everyone is tied to, there you have your auction house.

Um...reread my post. I thought it was clearly so over the top everyone would realize it was written in jest. I was wrong...obviously. I don't support a global AH.

SeptimusDova · October 2015

All Khajiit Mai'q should be trader too !

Mashille · October 2015

@charisma316

Please don't use the word 'kid' when talking to people to make yourself sound clever and mature...

In addition the term 'Peace out'... No... Just... No...

P.S: No, auction houses are never going to happen, ever. Sorry

P.P.S: Don't call people liars when they are having an open discussion, it's rude. PC players have had IC for over a month now so have had plenty of time to grind away.

Pollux_Bray · October 2015

To the OP; I joined in a raffle (unbeknownst to me) with Guilfoyle, and I won 170k. Im not an officer, the guildmaster, or anyone, really. Donated 85k back to the guild because I didn't need all of it, buuut... whats the real reason u mad? Im assuming you just got kicked out of a guild for not donating a paltry 2k for the week. Bro, its ok, let it out.

PinoZino · October 2015

StrykerTheElite wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

I wish ESO wasn't the only mmo currently out right now. This one thing, which is not bugged or broken, but in fact intended to be the economic system that this game uses, has caused me such stress and undo grief that I want to quit the game and kick my dog. If only mmo's were more popular and others existed for me to live out my fantasies of playing on a virtual Auction House. I've scoured the interwebs and this is indeed the only mmo that exists, so the only logical thing to do is to cry and make up horror stories about how an in game economic system hurt me emotionally and physically. Sigh, I just, I just don't know what to do with myself in a game without a global auction house.

you want a global auction house make one, step one join 4 guild traders.
step 2 make alt accounts and have them join 4 different guild traders x10
Then step 3 make your own guild that everyone is tied to, there you have your auction house.

On the Consoles your alts can't be a member of different Guilds, but your account does.

That's means you are connected to 5 times 499 (maximum) people = 2495.

I don't know about the total amount of players on PS4. Close to one million or something?

You smell the difference? You certainly have not a 'global auction house' when you are in 5 big guilds. Besides, each Guild is a separated subculture which is looking at other subcultures. But their reactions are delayed.

With a global Auction House there are no subcultures anymore and reacting will go much faster.

charisma316 · October 2015

Pollux_Bray wrote: »

To the OP; I joined in a raffle (unbeknownst to me) with Guilfoyle, and I won 170k. Im not an officer, the guildmaster, or anyone, really. Donated 85k back to the guild because I didn't need all of it, buuut... whats the real reason u mad? Im assuming you just got kicked out of a guild for not donating a paltry 2k for the week. Bro, its ok, let it out.

you may be telling the truth but you may not because many of the big console guilds have payed people 10k to claim they won when in acutallity they didnt win anything

Personofsecrets · October 2015

There comes a time when players need to just learn to trade.

charisma316 · October 2015

charisma316 wrote: »

Pollux_Bray wrote: »

To the OP; I joined in a raffle (unbeknownst to me) with Guilfoyle, and I won 170k. Im not an officer, the guildmaster, or anyone, really. Donated 85k back to the guild because I didn't need all of it, buuut... whats the real reason u mad? Im assuming you just got kicked out of a guild for not donating a paltry 2k for the week. Bro, its ok, let it out.

you may be telling the truth but you may not because many of the big console guilds have payed people 10k to claim they won when in acutallity they didnt win anything and never got kicked out of anything to be completely honest i have connections to the guild masters who are siphoning your gold and no wrong doings have been done to me i just have inside knowledge the system is corrupt

anyone who disagrees with e in these posts are guildmasters or people who claim they are just posting to disguise there ponzi scheme

PinoZino · October 2015

charisma316 wrote: »

anyone who disagrees with e in these posts are guildmasters or people who claim they are just posting to disguise there ponzi scheme

Sure. That's why you used fake evidence to make your point. It was, sadly for you, debunked pretty fast.

As a Guild Master you don't make any gold via your Guild.

Or you're small, having a cheap Guild Trader or not one at all, but the consequence is that your Guild is not making real big money.
Or you want to be big and hire a hotshot expensive trader and the consequence is that you have to put mucha gold of yourself in the Guild Bank. In that case you’re losing money.

Before I had my guild I was making 50K per day minimum. It's currently peanuts because I spend a lot of time in managing my guild.

Hey, if you think it's all that easy, start one on your own. Maybe, you'll start to get some respect for the Guild Masters who offer a lot of time, effort AND gold to keep their Guild running.

Looking at the tone and language you’re using that respect will probably never appear.

Tandor · October 2015

PinoZino wrote: »

RatedChaotic wrote: »

Diablo is not a mmo. Its a rpg with some mmo features. Stop comparing eso to diablo. If you think interacting with 3 other people is a massive multiplayer online game. You have some issues.

That would be even valid as stating;

Diablo starts with a 'D' and Elder Scrolls Online with an 'E'. Stop comparing ESO to Diablo.

The context is the same. It's about the concept Auction House, which you want to enter with entire Tramiel.

That's what they tried at Diablo and failed big time: they had 3 million players and lost 2 million with 'your' brilliant idea.

The context is not remotely the same. Diablo 3's auction problems related primarily to the real-money auction system which was corrupt and exploited and which trashed the game's reputation. It's impossible to make any objective assessment of the gold-based auction system in that context. Blizzard couldn't sensibly remove one without also removing the other or the reputational damage would have remained.

Meanwhile there are plenty of traditional MMORPGs that have auction-based trading systems that work extremely well, often after many years, whereas we are stuck in ESO with a guild traders system that is for the most part only open to high-level sellers and globe-trotting buyers together apparently with external websites that have spotted the marketing opportunities guild traders offer for their illicit businesses.

An effective trading system should be open to all irrespective of level, alliance or other artificial barriers such as guild membership. I don't necessarily argue for an auction house (although I do think it would be preferable to the existing system), but I would like to see a trading system that meets the basic criteria I just listed, and if that can be done by opening up the guild traders system more effectively then all well and good. As a minimum I'd like to see one trader in each main location open to non-guild members with a higher commission charge the revenue from which would be divided between the guilds trading in that location.

PinoZino · October 2015

Tandor wrote: »

The context is not remotely the same. Diablo 3's auction problems related primarily to the real-money auction system which was corrupt and exploited and which trashed the game's reputation. It's impossible to make any objective assessment of the gold-based auction system in that context. Blizzard couldn't sensibly remove one without also removing the other or the reputational damage would have remained.

Meanwhile there are plenty of traditional MMORPGs that have auction-based trading systems that work extremely well, often after many years, whereas we are stuck in ESO with a guild traders system that is for the most part only open to high-level sellers and globe-trotting buyers together apparently with external websites that have spotted the marketing opportunities guild traders offer for their illicit businesses.

An effective trading system should be open to all irrespective of level, alliance or other artificial barriers such as guild membership. I don't necessarily argue for an auction house (although I do think it would be preferable to the existing system), but I would like to see a trading system that meets the basic criteria I just listed, and if that can be done by opening up the guild traders system more effectively then all well and good. As a minimum I'd like to see one trader in each main location open to non-guild members with a higher commission charge that would be divided between the guilds trading in that location.

You are aware they had 2 kind of auctions? And they were not happy with both of them. The have shutdown both.

It's a bit easy to say their AH was corrupt and exploited. Do you have evidence?

Sure, it's possible that there's an MMO out there with a working AH.

And how many players are simultaneously in that game? You realize that ESO is on 2 Megaservers for every platform and not on 20 or 30 shards per platform dividing the population?

At ZOS they probably did their analysis pretty well. You know that present times companies like ZOS hire hotshot IRL financial gurus to analyze and adjust the game economy?

Tandor · October 2015

PinoZino wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

The context is not remotely the same. Diablo 3's auction problems related primarily to the real-money auction system which was corrupt and exploited and which trashed the game's reputation. It's impossible to make any objective assessment of the gold-based auction system in that context. Blizzard couldn't sensibly remove one without also removing the other or the reputational damage would have remained.

Meanwhile there are plenty of traditional MMORPGs that have auction-based trading systems that work extremely well, often after many years, whereas we are stuck in ESO with a guild traders system that is for the most part only open to high-level sellers and globe-trotting buyers together apparently with external websites that have spotted the marketing opportunities guild traders offer for their illicit businesses.

An effective trading system should be open to all irrespective of level, alliance or other artificial barriers such as guild membership. I don't necessarily argue for an auction house (although I do think it would be preferable to the existing system), but I would like to see a trading system that meets the basic criteria I just listed, and if that can be done by opening up the guild traders system more effectively then all well and good. As a minimum I'd like to see one trader in each main location open to non-guild members with a higher commission charge that would be divided between the guilds trading in that location.

You are aware they had 2 kind of auctions?

Yes, that's why I referred to both of them in my post. I haven't read the rest of your post as you clearly didn't read mine

!

ZOS_Racheal · October 2015

Hi, everyone.

We understand that people are going to disagree from time to time, but please remember to keep your comments respectful at all times on our forums, even when you disagree with others. Insults or other disruptive behavior do not help further discussion and can move a thread off topic quickly. We encourage sharing opinions, but we ask that they are constructively stated when doing so, as this will help keep the discussion on track. Thank you!

PinoZino · October 2015

Tandor wrote: »

Yes, that's why I referred to both of them in my post. I haven't read the rest of your post as you clearly didn't read mine !

If I clearly didn't read yours, how can I know that you clearly stated their AH's were corrupted and exploited?

How can I know that you suggested there are MMO's out there with a working AH?

DanielMaxwell · October 2015

PinoZino wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

The context is not remotely the same. Diablo 3's auction problems related primarily to the real-money auction system which was corrupt and exploited and which trashed the game's reputation. It's impossible to make any objective assessment of the gold-based auction system in that context. Blizzard couldn't sensibly remove one without also removing the other or the reputational damage would have remained.

Meanwhile there are plenty of traditional MMORPGs that have auction-based trading systems that work extremely well, often after many years, whereas we are stuck in ESO with a guild traders system that is for the most part only open to high-level sellers and globe-trotting buyers together apparently with external websites that have spotted the marketing opportunities guild traders offer for their illicit businesses.

An effective trading system should be open to all irrespective of level, alliance or other artificial barriers such as guild membership. I don't necessarily argue for an auction house (although I do think it would be preferable to the existing system), but I would like to see a trading system that meets the basic criteria I just listed, and if that can be done by opening up the guild traders system more effectively then all well and good. As a minimum I'd like to see one trader in each main location open to non-guild members with a higher commission charge that would be divided between the guilds trading in that location.

You are aware they had 2 kind of auctions? And they were not happy with both of them. The have shutdown both.

It's a bit easy to say their AH was corrupt and exploited. Do you have evidence?

Sure, it's possible that there's an MMO out there with a working AH.

And how many players are simultaneously in that game? You realize that ESO is on 2 Megaservers for every platform and not on 20 or 30 shards per platform dividing the population?

At ZOS they probably did their analysis pretty well. You know that present times companies like ZOS hire hotshot IRL financial gurus to analyze and adjust the game economy?

I do hope you also realize that all economic projections made by financial/economical analysts are nothing more then an educated guess .

the current ingame guild trader system suffers from the same problems that the faction/world auction house systems suffer from , with the same root cause of those problems which is the fact that they require people to actually use them .

you still have players trying to corner the markets , and you still have players who can not find items at prices they can afford . there are many factors that influence both of these and these factors will vary from player to player .

PinoZino · October 2015

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

I do hope you also realize that all economic projections made by financial/economical analysts are nothing more then an educated guess .

the current ingame guild trader system suffers from the same problems that the faction/world auction house systems suffer from , with the same root cause of those problems which is the fact that they require people to actually use them .

you still have players trying to corner the markets , and you still have players who can not find items at prices they can afford . there are many factors that influence both of these and these factors will vary from player to player .

Yes, I know. They build models and stuff. And yes, I know they are not perfect.

But what do we have? Nothing. Only assumptions.

Well the current system isn't that bad. Ok, they should make it more usable, more flexible, more powerful and add more functionality.

But it works a bit like a real life without the internet or phones.

You have to check store by store to check prices. Does it takes time? Sure. And that's why the system is working pretty good: people are lazy, they don't like it to check store by store. So they buy whenever they have the feeling 'this is not a bad price'.

Sotha_Sil · October 2015

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Tandor · October 2015

PinoZino wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Yes, that's why I referred to both of them in my post. I haven't read the rest of your post as you clearly didn't read mine !

If I clearly didn't read yours, how can I know that you clearly stated their AH's were corrupted and exploited?

How can I know that you suggested there are MMO's out there with a working AH?

I guess the same way I know without having read the rest of your post (

) that you don't know much about Diablo 3 or you wouldn't need to question the evidence for my reference to the money-based auction house system there having been exploited. Google it. Mass duping exploits on the money-based auction house led to the trading system being taken down for fixes and eventually the damage done to the game was so severe that they had to remove the whole trading system from the game. They eventually managed to restore some of the game's reputation and appeal through the Reaper of Souls expansion. I never touched the game until then precisely because I was put off by all the reports about the money-based auction house exploiting but I'm glad I'm playing it now because as an occasional "dip in and out" hack'n slash dungeon game it's pretty decent. However, it is in no way comparable to a MMORPG.

There are indeed many MMOs out there with a working AH. I don't think the megaserver setup causes any problems, you'd simply have regional auction houses rather than one global one.

Incidentally, I'm sure we can both re-assure @ZOS_Racheal that our exchanges have been entirely good-natured banter as evidenced by the smiles and winks

! There may of course be other exchanges in this topic to which she was referring but then it is a subject a lot of players feel very strongly about.

Moonshadow66 · October 2015

charisma316 wrote: »

Guild Traders are a waste of gold you spend millions for a week of selling stuff which if you do the math nobody and I mean NOBODY sells millions in merchandise the guild traders who claim to do so are liars there are really only a handful full of various items that people buy and even the most heavy dedicated farmer will not sell enough to garner a million gold or more gold price

Not Too Mention Tradings Guild are CORRUPT and yes 95% of them the whole rent for being a member to fatten the pockets of guild masters and there whole rigged system of raffles which i know people who were patsies and made pawns to say they won prizes in these raffles when in actually they didnt win anything at all and shared in the guild donation profits to claim they won

if you enter raffles and donate do at your own accord because really all you are doing is giving gold to the guildmaster

And of course there will be people who claim oh not my guild are raffles are legit dont bother nobody is ever gonna admit to wrongdoing

And the trading guild thing is essence is wrong and promotes people to sit around and find bugs glitches and ways to manipulate the system of fake money

Guilds are meant for Grouping and community and friends not setting up some fake gold Mafia where all you do is buy and sell in game items

If these Guildmasters were actually for there guildmembers you would actually group with them and invite them to trials and maybe pvp groups or maybe help the through dungeons rather than sticking your hands out asking for money

Feeling a little tense?

But seriously, I never had to pay any kind of "rent" for being a member of any of the guilds I'm in.

Also, raffle prizes really exist. I know this for sure because I won every now and then, and - get this: I really recieved the items (or gold), no kidding!

None of the donated gold (both donations for fun or for raffle tickets) goes to any of the guildmasters but straight into the guild bank.

I don't know what exactly your problem is, but... just a wild guess: you joined a guild and it didn't work out as you imagined? Not all guilds suck. Ask around, I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for.