Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

Because the enemies basically have no AI programmed into them, and so the solution made to other problems that result because of the lack of decent AI is a short detection range bubble.

In games with properly done AI, these problems do not occur, and the enemies walk and make rounds and track based on actual sight and sound events and their own tracked memory of sights and sounds. They behave like people would in the situation (at least, externally, to some reasonable level).

Bethesda didn't make this game, but it is at least continuing the trend of Bethsoft games having abysmally bad AI (looking at you, Skyrim, with your senseless AI routines slapped on top of each other, none of which actually work together or provide any reasonable behavior, ever).

To anyone saying or thinking "but its a game what do you expect", please go look into to play S.TA.L.K.E.R, hell even Crysis, F.E.A.R. ARMA.. There is a large list of games that have reasonable AI.

Being an MMO is no excuse anymore. The technology is past that.

I thought S.T.A.L.K.E.R overcooked the AI at times. They could hear a pin drop from a mile away, yet failed to spot you from 10 yards away at times.

At times, but the overall level of ambition and features was impressive. Ahead of its time, but the developers didn't really have a large team or enough funding to continue refining their engine.


Stalker had "stealth" without a stealth mode (basically you had to actually just think and consider how they would react, keep moving and using where you last were to your advantage, keep the enemies moving where you were before).


Also the animal AI in stalker. I have yet to see a game come close. They designed a large ecosystem where among other amazing details, packs of boars run around together, packs of dogs run around, they fight each other realistically, the smaller pack running off when a few of its members get picked off.

You shoot the dog pack and they start whimpering and running away, but then return as their aggression builds. Animals would run into anomalies and then flip out and whine and scream and run away.


It has a lot of pretty complex AI routines that work together and don't just create unreasonable scenarios, like Skyrim does (save town, pick up fork, town attacks you, etc.).

Everything in stalker was dynamic, whereas majority of games script everything. Virtually everything cool you see in stalker is unique for you, because you saw something that occurred dynamically from some clash of variables and your game state. It's not the same every time. It's not all scripted.


I have 100s of great stories about random events that happened in stalker from the complex ecosystem and AI that ended up creating unique gameplay for me.

I remember introducing my younger brother who was into games to stalker for the first time. He went off straight ahead into the first firefight, clearly expecting it to be like other shooters where you simply are a walking tank and everything run in a straight line at you and dies.

He died within seconds because one of the npcs had stalked up behind a building and gotten literally behind him, silently, and pumped him with a sawn off. Instant death. I must have smirked.

rb2001 wrote: »

Said another way, I understand that we need a lot of enemies out there for a lot of players to play, and we have that now, but if we are choosing between 1) Many boring, dumb enemies who provide little challenge or require almost no tactics, just stats, or 2) Less enemies that provide interesting reactions to you, and require interesting reactions from you, I'll choose the latter every time.

I can sign this wholeheartedly. But I also know, from my own experiences, that there are times when the possibility of just mowing though a pack of trash mobs standing between me an my objective, with reasonable chances of success is just the right and satisfying thing to do in some situations (not all, but some). Being able to do this at some point, when it was unthinkable before, can be a nice, direct measure of attained power and personal progress. This doesn't necessarily conflict with NPCs being more smarter, but it doesn't help, either. NPCs which are dumb are easier and more predictable, more consistent. But yes, they are also more boring once you figure them out, and their standard A.I. has been almost the same in all MMOs I know from personal experience, with minor variations (very flat learning curve). I guess pitching in the occasional lieutenant, or elite monster (as with the world bosses marked by a skull on the map) would spice things up a bit and keep players on their toes. But overused, players would resent the added difficulty for mundane tasks.

NB: In ESO (as in TES in general), if I'm not in the mood for big, heroic, and above all prolonged fights, I have a fair chance at sneaking by groups or camps of enemies, regardless of class (if I pay attention, and if I'm not too clumsy, ofc). I really appreciate this (says the guy who aims for pacifism in DeusEx).

rb2001 wrote: »

I agree that sometimes, realizing that you can win by brute force against like 12 is pretty awesome.

Dynamic content and varied content are what I want. We can still have the giant group smash in dungeons, but then other situations, such as when you are in early Glenumbra mucking about with Red Rook bandits (which quickly gets a little dull when you realize how they just stand there and don't see you), could be a lot more interesting.

A lighter touch could be more appropriate. Special animations for sneak kills. A few mobs that track by sight and sound with realistic distance, and if they spot you, call reinforcements to usher forth from the held building, would allow for less actual mobs to keep track of with advanced AI routines for the server, as well as the group smash content for when you are caught.

ESO kinda has this with the torch-bearing enemies and the disguise/drunk parts, but I'd love to see it expanded upon.

Yeah, exactly this!

Sneaking/cloaked enemy perimeter patrols you'd need to look out for and neutralize, before they have a chance snitch on intruders.

Hounds that can sniff your sneaking behind out, which you'd need to stay clear off (as do the torch bearers already with disguises).

Approach, infiltration, and execution could be planned and executed with a lot more variation and brains, while a brash, full frontal assault would still be possible, but more risky.