Thoughts on the Constant Complaining Over the Past Two Years

WatchYourSixx · September 2015

My 2 cents.

ESO is a game. Not only that, but it is a community as well. With that comes high expectations for an ideal world where nothing is broken. But the fact is, its still a GAME. Name one game that was released with zero bugs, glitches, balance issues, or anything that could make a user complain. There is no perfect game, and there never will be. The great thing about this game though, and MMO's alike, is that its ever evolving. Patches are rolled out frequently. There has been probably close to a hundred patches over the past year and a half, with 7 major updates. That is a LOT of change, for better or for worse. It's frustrating to have to deal with issues day in and day out, but if you keep in the mindset of "this issue is game-breaking" or "this issue ruins my game", then how can you possibly enjoy the game for what it is?

There's a vast world out there, and I can guarantee that over 95% or more is bug free. I'd call that a success. Work around issues/bugs, and it will be 10x more enjoyable. Don't dwell on something you can't change. Zenimax has been working hard to provide you with a quality game and if you think otherwise, you are foolish. I don't think its possible for a company to want to provide you with the crappiest experience possible, at least not a company with a proven background. Most of them probably work overtime trying to design the game the way we want it, or to provide us with a brand new experience. It is HARD to make a game, and its even harder to make an MMO.

With all of that being said, I have been here since Beta weekend of September 2013. I was subscribed all but 1 month of their initial year, and yes.. I'm a fan-boy. I'm not much of an outspoken person, so you won't see me complaining about anything much. Everyone is entitled to complain, or voice their opinion. I just think its sad to see so many people give up on this game because of one or two things. Is that really all you play the game for is for those one or two things to work? It has got to be heartbreaking for the dev's to read the forums every day because nearly EVERY post bashes this game. The praise rarely gets spoken, and I for one, would like to see that change. This is a great game, and in my opinion will be one of the best games in the future. However long that takes, I don't know, but this game has so much upside.

With that, I'll open it up for discussion. This is obviously my opinion, but I can't imagine I'm the only one who is thinking something similar.

Asherons_Call · September 2015

If we didn't complain they wouldn't know what to fix! Ok that has a little bit of sarcasm and truth rolled in together

WatchYourSixx · September 2015

You are absolutely right! However, I feel like the complaint to compliment ratio should be much better than it is.

Conquers · September 2015

when i see "all my friends threw in the towel and i am about to as well if this isn't fixed"
you become invalid. (OP i mean in other posts not your post)
game is fun, even if something is op or nerfed, or bugged
i have complaints but nonetheless will not quit the game because of them, because the upside overwhelms the few complaints

basically, OP i agree with you

Mojmir · September 2015

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Zsymon · September 2015

The complaining that is the worst, is the constant whining about what skills are "overpowered", this continuous cry for nerfs is creating a power drain that will ruin the game.

Alcast · September 2015

Official forum is for QQ, if you want serious discussions go tamrielfoundry

Tholian1 · September 2015

I find it sad that the acceptance of bugs has become the norm because of people that will take whatever is given to them. There really is no excuse for these bugs. I can understand the PC version of the game having a variety of bugs creep in due to the vast differences with PC configurations. But on consoles, there really is no excuse to push out buggy code for systems that are identical.

I don't play this game to be friends with the devs and pat them on the back. They are doing a job and they get paid to do it. I am a customer that purchased a product and I expect it to work properly. Maybe they should put in a bit more effort on testing these patches before pushing them out to us. It also wouldn't hurt to survey the customers once in a while to get a better idea of how the player base, as a whole, are feeling about the state of the game.

Go ahead and be happy about the bugs and changes to the gameplay if you want. I'm not going to apologize for expecting better.

vamp_emily · September 2015

I crash at least 10 times a day, I still play the game.

Still have not figured out my problem. Seems like when I travel to my first Keep in PvP its almost a guaranteed crash. Sometimes when I am in a fight I crash, I was thinking it had something to do with fire but I crash sometimes when I am not around fire.

I have read threads that say something like ZOS is a business and they are money hungry.. bla bla bla. That might be ZOS. I am a software developer and when we create something, we do look at budgets and stuff like that but we try and make the best product. So I do believe the developers are doing a great job and they are trying to make us the best game.

Bugs will always show up. I helped create a program once and it was a rush job . Well long story short, the owner of the company called me into the office and asked, "Is there something in the programmers manual that says, create bugs for job security?"

THEDKEXPERIENCE · September 2015

I work in IT. For what it's worth the number of things that can go wrong with even the most basic IT service number in the thousands. Even in 2015 getting even 1 single phone call to work is a miracle that we take for granted. Most people do not understand this and even fewer actually know how to fix these issues.

Ever wonder why it takes Comcast 4 hours to send out a tech? It's because even if something is 99.99% reliable it just means 1 out of every 10,000 customers is currently down. Companies like those have way more than 10,000 customers.

To use that example, if ESO has 1,000,000 players and its 99% reliable than there are still 10,000 angry people out there. If even 1% of those people post on the board today you'll see 100 angry posts about how the game is unplayable. 100 angry posts on a message board will look like the sky is falling.

TLDR: technology is difficult.

Acrolas · September 2015

WatchYourSixx wrote: »

I feel like the complaint to compliment ratio should be much better than it is.

What would you rather have, a compliment or money?
Right. Money. Because you can't do jack *** *** with a compliment.

I don't owe them anything. If I like something, I'll buy it. That's the extent of our relationship. I purchase. They keep the lights on.

Personofsecrets · September 2015

If your not complaining, then, as a consumer, you are not doing it right.

TequilaFire · September 2015

All complaints are valid, except the ones about DKs!

/joke

Darlgon · September 2015

What to tell the devs something is really cool? Want to complement them that x quest was interesting? Want to tell the lowly programmer they are doing a good job?

/feedback what you like, click the "attach screenshot", which takes a picture from right when you hit that enter after typing "/feedback" and tell them what you enjoyed.

Like /Bug, /feedback goes directly to the dev team. Only, instead of always being something wrong, it can also say, "Good job".

Forums are.. well.. IF Gina OR Jessica OR Rich happens to see what you type, MAYBE it will get back to the guys in the back room who are coding or world building, or making audio for the next release, or .. well, just think of all the guests on ESO Live this past year.

But it never hurts to start a thread saying.. This was cool. <screenshot>. Anyone else have any cool shots. In LOTRO, we had a thread for screenshots Wardens doing cool moves/fights/achievements. (Wardens were the foster step children once-removed of the devs at Lotro almost since their inception.) Something like that might be cool here.

MikeB · September 2015

No games without Bugs? This is today's norm, this has not always been the case. Before games were connected to the internet they had to be released without bugs or they would be flamed to oblivion and would make no money. So before you claim "There is no game released with zero bugs, glitches, balance issues, or anything that could make a user complain" do your research. This has only become a problem in the last 4-5 years and really more prevalent in the last 2-3 years.

WatchYourSixx · September 2015

You are right @MikeB I didn't do my research, but I knew I didn't need to. I just spent the last hour looking up to see if any games were released bug/glitch/issue free. I haven't found one yet, and I highly doubt I will. This is why I said name one and prove me wrong on that point.

UrQuan · September 2015

MikeB wrote: »

No games without Bugs? This is today's norm, this has not always been the case. Before games were connected to the internet they had to be released without bugs or they would be flamed to oblivion and would make no money. So before you claim "There is no game released with zero bugs, glitches, balance issues, or anything that could make a user complain" do your research. This has only become a problem in the last 4-5 years and really more prevalent in the last 2-3 years.

Umm, actually every game I ever played, going back to my old Commodore 64, had bugs or glitches or weird balance issues where one thing would be way harder or way easier than it should be. Back in the day there were specialized magazines you could subscribe to that told you what bugs there were in different games, and how you could use them to exploit your way through a game. Then there were BBSs for that. Then the internet. Back when games were simpler there were fewer bugs (simply because there were fewer "moving parts" if you will, so there are fewer things that can go wrong), but I don't believe I've ever played any game (or used any piece of software) that was entirely bug-free.

MikeB · September 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

MikeB wrote: »

No games without Bugs? This is today's norm, this has not always been the case. Before games were connected to the internet they had to be released without bugs or they would be flamed to oblivion and would make no money. So before you claim "There is no game released with zero bugs, glitches, balance issues, or anything that could make a user complain" do your research. This has only become a problem in the last 4-5 years and really more prevalent in the last 2-3 years.

Umm, actually every game I ever played, going back to my old Commodore 64, had bugs or glitches or weird balance issues where one thing would be way harder or way easier than it should be. Back in the day there were specialized magazines you could subscribe to that told you what bugs there were in different games, and how you could use them to exploit your way through a game. Then there were BBSs for that. Then the internet. Back when games were simpler there were fewer bugs (simply because there were fewer "moving parts" if you will, so there are fewer things that can go wrong), but I don't believe I've ever played any game (or used any piece of software) that was entirely bug-free.

In the sense that audio skipping or stuttering can be called a "glitch" then no, no game is perfect. But you can not sit there and say that games in the last 2-3 years have not been released with more bugs, glitches and exploits than any game prior. Look at Assassins Creed: Unity, Skyrim, Witcher 3, Dragon Age: Inquisition All games that were a lot buggier than their predecessors. Been gaming since Atari was new and I've never experienced more frustration with glitches or bugs than ESO.

Endless-Shogun · September 2015

Blizzard set the bar.

rb2001 · September 2015

I'm gonna take the bait.

"Name one game that was released with zero bugs, glitches, balance issues, or anything that could make a user complain. There is no perfect game, and there never will be. "

I know you were focused on recent games, in which case, it's true, they are buggy as all heck, but some perfect games that you don't experience bugs in unless you are looking for them (sequence breaking, etc.):

-Metroid Prime (my all-time favorite)
-pretty much every Zelda
-Super Mario Galaxy, or any Mario, really
-ah, any first party Nintendo game...

Ah, it's clear that my bias is showing, but whatever, Nintendo has made many games that are basically perfect and issue-free, top-notch, and those are my favorite games.

ESO is still great, but yeah, it's buggy.

Bhakura · September 2015

making a complain thread about complains is complaining too

wish i could get more complain in there ...

not that im complaining

AAN2 · September 2015

There are two reasons that the majority of players join a forum for a game.

1. To join a community that will benefit you in the game by giving you people to play the game with and get advice from.

2. To complain and hope your complaint is read by the dev team and that they go "Oh hey that's a great point! We should fix that right now!"

Guess which reason the majority of the aforementioned majority of players join forums for.

Rikal · September 2015

ESO is a large complex product with a large and varied customer base. It will always have bugs. It will always have features that some customers don't like or think can be improved. It will always have turnover. It's not worth getting too worked up over. If someone wants to threaten to leave, so what. Lots of those are just venting and don't actually leave, and others leave and find out the grass isn't necessarily greener in some other game.

Celas_Dranacea · September 2015

The game is great, I love the new update. honestly - after seeing 1.7, even w the bugs, I have a lot of trust in the devs to keep moving this game forward.

It's fine to complain and give constructive feedback as well as debate various issues - but everyone try to be civil, adults that we can all respect.

Good job zos

UrQuan · September 2015

MikeB wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

MikeB wrote: »

No games without Bugs? This is today's norm, this has not always been the case. Before games were connected to the internet they had to be released without bugs or they would be flamed to oblivion and would make no money. So before you claim "There is no game released with zero bugs, glitches, balance issues, or anything that could make a user complain" do your research. This has only become a problem in the last 4-5 years and really more prevalent in the last 2-3 years.

Umm, actually every game I ever played, going back to my old Commodore 64, had bugs or glitches or weird balance issues where one thing would be way harder or way easier than it should be. Back in the day there were specialized magazines you could subscribe to that told you what bugs there were in different games, and how you could use them to exploit your way through a game. Then there were BBSs for that. Then the internet. Back when games were simpler there were fewer bugs (simply because there were fewer "moving parts" if you will, so there are fewer things that can go wrong), but I don't believe I've ever played any game (or used any piece of software) that was entirely bug-free.

In the sense that audio skipping or stuttering can be called a "glitch" then no, no game is perfect. But you can not sit there and say that games in the last 2-3 years have not been released with more bugs, glitches and exploits than any game prior. Look at Assassins Creed: Unity, Skyrim, Witcher 3, Dragon Age: Inquisition All games that were a lot buggier than their predecessors. Been gaming since Atari was new and I've never experienced more frustration with glitches or bugs than ESO.

Yeah, that's because the more complex a piece of software is, the more things there are that can go wrong as different pieces of code interact with each other. There has never been a game without any bugs, and since the dawn of computers as games (and other pieces of software) have become bigger and more complex they have tended towards more bugs. It's inevitable.

In fact, it's financial suicide to try to launch a game or other piece of software that's entirely bug-free, because it would take so long to thoroughly test absolutely everything, fix every single bug that you found, re-test the fixes, fix the bugs caused by the fixes, re-test those fixes, etc that by the time you finally released you'd be releasing a piece of software that was 2-3 generations behind the times, and nobody would buy it.

Instead, what a smart developer does is test as much as possible (ideally you want to test everything if you can, but realistically this is never possible) to identify as many bugs as possible, then you prioritize those bug fixes based on these criteria (in no particular order):

Frequency at which the bug occurs
Impact of the bug
Difficulty of developing a fix
Potential of a fix to break other things
Amount of re-testing required for the fix

Based on that analysis of the bugs you work on them in priority order and get as many fixes in place as possible prior to launch (depending on the severity of any still outstanding bugs you may or may not move the launch date), and then you work on providing updates and fixes post-launch. Typically the first few rounds of post-launch patches will already be written and ready to be installed prior to launch, but you won't have had enough cycles to properly test them and make sure that they don't cause more issues than they solve.

gurneyhalleck00 · September 2015

In the big scheme of things this game was a home run.............

UrQuan · September 2015

rb2001 wrote: »

I'm gonna take the bait.

"Name one game that was released with zero bugs, glitches, balance issues, or anything that could make a user complain. There is no perfect game, and there never will be. "

I know you were focused on recent games, in which case, it's true, they are buggy as all heck, but some perfect games that you don't experience bugs in unless you are looking for them (sequence breaking, etc.):

-Metroid Prime (my all-time favorite)
-pretty much every Zelda
-Super Mario Galaxy, or any Mario, really
-ah, any first party Nintendo game...

Um...
http://www.metroidwiki.org/wiki/Glitches_in_Metroid_Prime
http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda_Glitches
http://www.mariowiki.com/List_of_Super_Mario_Galaxy_glitches
Seriously, every game ever has them to varying degrees. How many and how bad largely depends on how complex the game is.

daemonios · September 2015

Nobody is asking for a bug-free game. But consider this:

- Certain issues exist since launch with no fix in sight, such as long loading screens and lag;
- Certain skill bugs that made certain classes all but unplayable took months to fix;
- Some of the updates left whole classes in a wreck. I suffered this as a sorc with 1.5, I couldn't DPS to save my life;
- The business model we were promised was going to stick around (subscription-only) was ditched less than a year into the game;
- We were content starved for a year while ZOS prepared a console launch that was supposed to happen shortly after PC/MAC;
- The latest update changed things like crafting in order to make it hard for those who don't have the DLC to get any of its content, but it threw out the baby with the bath water, I.e. those who DO have the DLC still have to farm 150 freaking mats to craft ONE V16 piece of gear;
- Other content (recipes, motifs) was changed to accommodate and promote crown store sales;

I could go on, but in the end, it's just as you say: ESO is a game and a community. If the community is complaining, of course you can dismiss it as whining and drama. But you can also make an effort to see if there's maybe some reason for all the complaints.

MikeB · September 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

MikeB wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

MikeB wrote: »

No games without Bugs? This is today's norm, this has not always been the case. Before games were connected to the internet they had to be released without bugs or they would be flamed to oblivion and would make no money. So before you claim "There is no game released with zero bugs, glitches, balance issues, or anything that could make a user complain" do your research. This has only become a problem in the last 4-5 years and really more prevalent in the last 2-3 years.

Umm, actually every game I ever played, going back to my old Commodore 64, had bugs or glitches or weird balance issues where one thing would be way harder or way easier than it should be. Back in the day there were specialized magazines you could subscribe to that told you what bugs there were in different games, and how you could use them to exploit your way through a game. Then there were BBSs for that. Then the internet. Back when games were simpler there were fewer bugs (simply because there were fewer "moving parts" if you will, so there are fewer things that can go wrong), but I don't believe I've ever played any game (or used any piece of software) that was entirely bug-free.

In the sense that audio skipping or stuttering can be called a "glitch" then no, no game is perfect. But you can not sit there and say that games in the last 2-3 years have not been released with more bugs, glitches and exploits than any game prior. Look at Assassins Creed: Unity, Skyrim, Witcher 3, Dragon Age: Inquisition All games that were a lot buggier than their predecessors. Been gaming since Atari was new and I've never experienced more frustration with glitches or bugs than ESO.

Yeah, that's because the more complex a piece of software is, the more things there are that can go wrong as different pieces of code interact with each other. There has never been a game without any bugs, and since the dawn of computers as games (and other pieces of software) have become bigger and more complex they have tended towards more bugs. It's inevitable.

In fact, it's financial suicide to try to launch a game or other piece of software that's entirely bug-free, because it would take so long to thoroughly test absolutely everything, fix every single bug that you found, re-test the fixes, fix the bugs caused by the fixes, re-test those fixes, etc that by the time you finally released you'd be releasing a piece of software that was 2-3 generations behind the times, and nobody would buy it.

Instead, what a smart developer does is test as much as possible (ideally you want to test everything if you can, but realistically this is never possible) to identify as many bugs as possible, then you prioritize those bug fixes based on these criteria (in no particular order):
Frequency at which the bug occurs

Impact of the bug

Difficulty of developing a fix

Potential of a fix to break other things

Amount of re-testing required for the fix

Based on that analysis of the bugs you work on them in priority order and get as many fixes in place as possible prior to launch (depending on the severity of any still outstanding bugs you may or may not move the launch date), and then you work on providing updates and fixes post-launch. Typically the first few rounds of post-launch patches will already be written and ready to be installed prior to launch, but you won't have had enough cycles to properly test them and make sure that they don't cause more issues than they solve.

Agreed. the thing is ESO didnt do any of this. Its painfully obvious that little testing was done, there are several passives, spells, gear sets, aka large important parts of the game that either dont work at all or dont work properly. The Sorc blood magic talent doesnt work with Encase, Guild banks dont work and havent since release, Loading screens are absurd, you take double dmg in Kagrenac's set, again just to name just a small, very small, amount of issues since update 7.

Rikal · September 2015

In fact, it's financial suicide to try to launch a game or other piece of software that's entirely bug-free, because it would take so long to thoroughly test absolutely everything, fix every single bug that you found, re-test the fixes, fix the bugs caused by the fixes, re-test those fixes, etc that by the time you finally released you'd be releasing a piece of software that was 2-3 generations behind the times, and nobody would buy it.

Absolutely. It would be hard to even get far enough to attempt suicide. If you said your plan was to make a bug-free game, no informed (and sane) investor would give you any money to even start.

Itoq · September 2015

Absolutely nobody thinks that the game ought to be bug free. That is simply a straw man. The fact that this is even brought up is evidence of players, who see themselves as being on one side of the conversation, being intellectually dishonest.

Many people think that quite a bit more care should be exercised with testing new code. As well, many players see a significant lack of attention and resources put to old bugs, poor code, bad communication and the like.

The vast majority of the complaints are not complicated. Players see a game that advertised as a B to near A level game but was actually launched and maintained as C list game. People in general, just like ESO players, do not like seeing potential wasted - nor do most people like someone telling them that they will get significantly more than they actually receive.