Damage over Time (DOT's)

remraub16_ESO · September 2015

So after the NB tank nerf (siphoning) I had no choice but to go DPS with my NB.
The only type of DPS I've ever enjoyed in MMO's were DoT DPS, just love stacking dot's and watching things melt.

To my surprise, it doesn't work at all in ESO. the DOT damage are so low and so slow that an enemy sorc can literally just spam crystal frag and stay on full health..
Now I could spin into a "nerf sorc" raving, but I wont.. not here.

Please have a look at how DoT's work (especially in PvP) because it would be so much fun if I could do what I've been trying to do now, which is stacking
Crippling Grasp,Structured Entropy, Shock Clench and Prolonged suffering. All in all the DOT with those combined lands around 18k dmg over 8 secs (average) according to tooltip. In reality it hardly moves an enemy healthbar (in PvP that is).

If anyone has other experience with DoT builds or any suggestions on how I might be able to stack stuff better etc, let me know, I want to explore DoT NB fully.

paulsimonps · September 2015

Just wanted to add if you use the non toggle ability of Siphon as a NB tank and do light attacks that you animation cancel with Blocking you will keep block up almost 90% of the time and get a *** ton of stamina back, all you need to do is activate siphon strike every like 15s its nothing, piece of cake. So yea the toggle got nerfed but the other morph is still a totally valid option.

leepalmer95 · September 2015

remraub16_ESO wrote: »

So after the NB tank nerf (siphoning) I had no choice but to go DPS with my NB.
The only type of DPS I've ever enjoyed in MMO's were DoT DPS, just love stacking dot's and watching things melt.

To my surprise, it doesn't work at all in ESO. the DOT damage are so low and so slow that an enemy sorc can literally just spam crystal frag and stay on full health..
Now I could spin into a "nerf sorc" raving, but I wont.. not here.

Please have a look at how DoT's work (especially in PvP) because it would be so much fun if I could do what I've been trying to do now, which is stacking
Crippling Grasp,Structured Entropy, Shock Clench and Prolonged suffering. All in all the DOT with those combined lands around 18k dmg over 8 secs (average) according to tooltip. In reality it hardly moves an enemy healthbar (in PvP that is).

If anyone has other experience with DoT builds or any suggestions on how I might be able to stack stuff better etc, let me know, I want to explore DoT NB fully.

18k over 8 seconds is what 2250 dmg a second? In pvp thats 1125 dmg per second, thats not much dmg and that is without cp defences, armour etc...

remraub16_ESO · September 2015

leepalmer95 wrote: »

remraub16_ESO wrote: »

So after the NB tank nerf (siphoning) I had no choice but to go DPS with my NB.
The only type of DPS I've ever enjoyed in MMO's were DoT DPS, just love stacking dot's and watching things melt.

To my surprise, it doesn't work at all in ESO. the DOT damage are so low and so slow that an enemy sorc can literally just spam crystal frag and stay on full health..
Now I could spin into a "nerf sorc" raving, but I wont.. not here.

Please have a look at how DoT's work (especially in PvP) because it would be so much fun if I could do what I've been trying to do now, which is stacking
Crippling Grasp,Structured Entropy, Shock Clench and Prolonged suffering. All in all the DOT with those combined lands around 18k dmg over 8 secs (average) according to tooltip. In reality it hardly moves an enemy healthbar (in PvP that is).

If anyone has other experience with DoT builds or any suggestions on how I might be able to stack stuff better etc, let me know, I want to explore DoT NB fully.

18k over 8 seconds is what 2250 dmg a second? In pvp thats 1125 dmg per second, thats not much dmg and that is without cp defences, armour etc...

Exactly, it's really low, and on top of that not only is it low DPS, but it's slow too, because it takes what, 1 sec to cast each of the dots?

I'n other MMO's DoT's tends to be just as strong as DD, just takes a bit of time to set up.

I'm not looking to make DoT damage the ultimate DPS or anything, just wish it was on-par with spamming Crushing Shock..

remraub16_ESO · September 2015

paulsimonps wrote: »

Just wanted to add if you use the non toggle ability of Siphon as a NB tank and do light attacks that you animation cancel with Blocking you will keep block up almost 90% of the time and get a *** ton of stamina back, all you need to do is activate siphon strike every like 15s its nothing, piece of cake. So yea the toggle got nerfed but the other morph is still a totally valid option.

I gave that a go before I respeced, and I disagree, It's not at all as effective as the former version where I could go into a pack of mobs, spam sap essence to keep aggro and just block meanwhile (and gaining all the stamina needed from the sap essence).

I just feel they stole the originality from magicka NB tanking and put them in a very boring corner where they are a much worse option than DK or even Templar tanks.

jebuspowers · September 2015

Agreed. Nb tanks just lost a lot of their effectiveness. Just about any class can tank better now. Which is infuriating because Nightblade magicka tank was the only role I liked

Anhedonie · September 2015

remraub16_ESO wrote: »

So after the NB tank nerf (siphoning) I had no choice but to go DPS with my NB.
The only type of DPS I've ever enjoyed in MMO's were DoT DPS, just love stacking dot's and watching things melt.

To my surprise, it doesn't work at all in ESO. the DOT damage are so low and so slow that an enemy sorc can literally just spam crystal frag and stay on full health..
Now I could spin into a "nerf sorc" raving, but I wont.. not here.

Please have a look at how DoT's work (especially in PvP) because it would be so much fun if I could do what I've been trying to do now, which is stacking
Crippling Grasp,Structured Entropy, Shock Clench and Prolonged suffering. All in all the DOT with those combined lands around 18k dmg over 8 secs (average) according to tooltip. In reality it hardly moves an enemy healthbar (in PvP that is).

If anyone has other experience with DoT builds or any suggestions on how I might be able to stack stuff better etc, let me know, I want to explore DoT NB fully.

ZO$ hates DOTs. I used to play as warlock (affliction) in WOW and it was so much fun, but in ESO it's direct damage or nothing.
Even DK's whip will have bigger dps than dots.
And you can't see the duration of all debuffs. Even ftc often shows wrong numbers.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · September 2015

Anhedonie wrote: »

remraub16_ESO wrote: »

So after the NB tank nerf (siphoning) I had no choice but to go DPS with my NB.
The only type of DPS I've ever enjoyed in MMO's were DoT DPS, just love stacking dot's and watching things melt.

To my surprise, it doesn't work at all in ESO. the DOT damage are so low and so slow that an enemy sorc can literally just spam crystal frag and stay on full health..
Now I could spin into a "nerf sorc" raving, but I wont.. not here.

Please have a look at how DoT's work (especially in PvP) because it would be so much fun if I could do what I've been trying to do now, which is stacking
Crippling Grasp,Structured Entropy, Shock Clench and Prolonged suffering. All in all the DOT with those combined lands around 18k dmg over 8 secs (average) according to tooltip. In reality it hardly moves an enemy healthbar (in PvP that is).

If anyone has other experience with DoT builds or any suggestions on how I might be able to stack stuff better etc, let me know, I want to explore DoT NB fully.

ZO$ hates DOTs. I used to play as warlock (affliction) in WOW and it was so much fun, but in ESO it's direct damage or nothing.
Even DK's whip will have bigger dps than dots.
And you can't see the duration of all debuffs. Even ftc often shows wrong numbers.

Buffs/debuffs are now provied via the API, so a proper coded addon shows it correctly.

On topic, yeah DoT is terrible in pvp. Takes time to set up, easily removed, pathetic damage, taking up many slots on your bar... leading to a situation where a single, spammable dps skill wins. Nice game design.

13igTyme · September 2015

If you've played other MMOs, like you said, then you'd know stacking dots never works in PVP. It has always been about burst damage in PVP on all MMOs.

mr_wazzabi · September 2015

13igTyme wrote: »

If you've played other MMOs, like you said, then you'd know stacking dots never works in PVP. It has always been about burst damage in PVP on all MMOs.

^ This one knows

remraub16_ESO · September 2015

13igTyme wrote: »

If you've played other MMOs, like you said, then you'd know stacking dots never works in PVP. It has always been about burst damage in PVP on all MMOs.

Shamans and Druids in EQ
Mana Mentalist and Bone Army BD's in DAOC
Affliction Warlock in WoW
Dark Templar in AoC
Mesmers/Necro in GW1
GW2 - every damn class has a fully viable DoT build
Just to name a few..

DoT's has never been favored or FoTm in MMO's, when it comes to PvP but they have always worked for me and my play style, until ESO.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · September 2015

13igTyme wrote: »

If you've played other MMOs, like you said, then you'd know stacking dots never works in PVP. It has always been about burst damage in PVP on all MMOs.

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

13igTyme wrote: »

If you've played other MMOs, like you said, then you'd know stacking dots never works in PVP. It has always been about burst damage in PVP on all MMOs.

^ This one knows

I don't know which games you've played, but the post above me is totally right. Other games have both burst and dot builds in pvp, but not ESO.

remraub16_ESO · September 2015

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

remraub16_ESO wrote: »

So after the NB tank nerf (siphoning) I had no choice but to go DPS with my NB.
The only type of DPS I've ever enjoyed in MMO's were DoT DPS, just love stacking dot's and watching things melt.

To my surprise, it doesn't work at all in ESO. the DOT damage are so low and so slow that an enemy sorc can literally just spam crystal frag and stay on full health..
Now I could spin into a "nerf sorc" raving, but I wont.. not here.

Please have a look at how DoT's work (especially in PvP) because it would be so much fun if I could do what I've been trying to do now, which is stacking
Crippling Grasp,Structured Entropy, Shock Clench and Prolonged suffering. All in all the DOT with those combined lands around 18k dmg over 8 secs (average) according to tooltip. In reality it hardly moves an enemy healthbar (in PvP that is).

If anyone has other experience with DoT builds or any suggestions on how I might be able to stack stuff better etc, let me know, I want to explore DoT NB fully.

ZO$ hates DOTs. I used to play as warlock (affliction) in WOW and it was so much fun, but in ESO it's direct damage or nothing.
Even DK's whip will have bigger dps than dots.
And you can't see the duration of all debuffs. Even ftc often shows wrong numbers.

Buffs/debuffs are now provied via the API, so a proper coded addon shows it correctly.

On topic, yeah DoT is terrible in pvp. Takes time to set up, easily removed, pathetic damage, taking up many slots on your bar... leading to a situation where a single, spammable dps skill wins. Nice game design.

Exactly, there's no reward for all the downsides, and that's what I would like Zenimax to look into.
Overall I'd like to see it possible to have some war of attrition in pvp, not only for the sake of DoT's but so that Tank is a viable role in PvP too.

Speaking of which, I'd like to see less resource management on DPS builds and leave that to the tanks ability/armor, that would be a good way to give tanks a chance in PvP if they can defend and resource manage good enough vs a DPS build they could outlast them and slowly wear them down. If only the S&B line had a good bleed, it is surely missing there.

Reeko · September 2015

Have you tried using Valkyn Skoria?

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · September 2015

13igTyme wrote: »

If you've played other MMOs, like you said, then you'd know stacking dots never works in PVP. It has always been about burst damage in PVP on all MMOs.

In Star Wars: The Old Republic, Serenity Shadows/Hatred Assassins and Balance Sages/Madness Sorcerers were ABSOLUTELY wrecking face with DoT damage for a while.

Don't know what their meta is currently, though. That game has such poor support, it's borderline depressing.

13igTyme · September 2015

remraub16_ESO wrote: »

13igTyme wrote: »

If you've played other MMOs, like you said, then you'd know stacking dots never works in PVP. It has always been about burst damage in PVP on all MMOs.

Shamans and Druids in EQ
Mana Mentalist and Bone Army BD's in DAOC
Affliction Warlock in WoW
Dark Templar in AoC
Mesmers/Necro in GW1
GW2 - every damn class has a fully viable DoT build
Just to name a few..

DoT's has never been favored or FoTm in MMO's, when it comes to PvP but they have always worked for me and my play style, until ESO.

I'm not saying there aren't dots builds in pvp. I'm just saying burst was, is, and will always be better in pvp.

Asmael · September 2015

You forgot to mention the Annihilation Marauder. Had quite some fun with it, but only seemed to work because it was dealing Internal damage, e.g damage that, if I remember well, ignored all mitigation. Quite the tank killer.

Anyway... A good reason for the inefficiency of DoTs?

NB Dark Cloak.
Templar Purifying ritual.
Sorcs Shield.
DK ...?
All - Purge

So when a game mechanic is basically countered by 75% of the Cyro population... Yeah, that's pretty bad. You can stack DoTs and do pretty hefty amount of damage, but you're usually better off combining only a DoT or 2, and then having a direct damage ability:

Unstable flame -> WB
Entropy -> (Dark Flare / C.Frag / ...)
Rending Slashes -> Flurry / ...

List goes on and on...

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · September 2015

Reeko wrote: »

Have you tried using Valkyn Skoria?

Got nerfed to hell and back. Damage and proc chance is way too low.

Armitas · September 2015

Dots are one of the major flaws in the DK. Flame whip has low base damage because it's suppose to be coupled with dots...and that works fine in PvE. However in PvP dots are trivialized by cloak and cleanse (which actually results in a very powerful heal) and it requires too many precious skill slots leaving you with nothing but a poor base damage attack. The base damage is so poor in fact that it's only slightly higher than deep slash in the sword and board line...and deep slash is an AOE -_-

jebuspowers · September 2015

When I stopped playing EQ circa 2002 druids were by far the most op class (except maybe necromancer). Their dots would wreck a pack of trash and their damage shield was ridiculous. But ESO'S dots are pretty lackluster for the most part. The only one I think that is worth using is cripple.

jebuspowers · September 2015

I'm not going to let ZOS push us around. I'm pretty close to building my Nightblade back up as a tank to make him awesome, because now even DK'S kind of suck at it.

This is based on attempting 2 vet dungeons that were at or below the tank's level and it was not pretty.

Anorak · September 2015

Honestly dots are so broken and have been that way for a while once they get fixed an perhaps buffed then they will be worth building around but for now they are just extra.

Dredlord · September 2015

Tons of mmo,s have extremely effective dot builds.

Most dots need to be really beefed up with all the cleansing and purging going on.

t.claudio.usnub18_ESO · September 2015

Dots should bypass shields, armor and magic reduction due to the fact it takes time to do damage and can be purged and blocked.

Also Bleed damage should be changed and renamed to rupture damage and effect all enemies.

Bashev · September 2015

Best DPS in PvE - Dots
Worst DPS in PvP - Dots
It will be very difficult for ZoS to balance it.

remraub16_ESO · September 2015

t.claudio.usnub18_ESO wrote: »

Dots should bypass shields, armor and magic reduction due to the fact it takes time to do damage and can be purged and blocked.

Also Bleed damage should be changed and renamed to rupture damage and effect all enemies.

I like this idea, especially shields!

Anorak · September 2015

Bashev wrote: »

Best DPS in PvE - Dots
Worst DPS in PvP - Dots
It will be very difficult for ZoS to balance it.

Dots are not the best dps in pvp unless you are magic based and then you need an enemy that stands still and doesnt resist fire. Bleed dots are pitiful in pve.