Undo the Nerf to DPS and Tanks

gangyzgirl · September 2015

I can understand that perhaps you may of wanted to Nerf their abilities to give players a better chance at fighting or survivial in the Imperial City PvP, but you have crippled the players in PVE by doing so.

I have finally gotten my character to a high enough level to perform in the Craglorn Trials and had been told repeatedly that my friends would help me get through AA when I was ready.

Because of the Nerfs, the trials have been made extraordinarily more difficult as the DPS cannot do nearly as much damage as before and as a result the Tank often dies before completion.

Its gotten to the point where few groups are even willing to go through with a Trial without an expensive in game gold price. The Raid groups who once could clear the dungeons twice a week can now no longer even get through it after multiple attempts.

For the newer players who are just starting to get to a point where we can perform in trials, we are unable to get the acheivements or dyes because the groups don't want to go through trials because there a huge difficulty in completing it now with absolutely no loot or gear making the added challenge worthwhile to them

This is frustrating because with people now not willing to do trial runs ( Even when offered large sums of gold and or rare items), its become impossible for us whom are finally able to partake in the trials to actually ever hope in getting the achievements.

So I sincerely hope you will reconsider those devastating nerfs so that the PVE players can once again go through the trials with some hope of having a successful run .

Elijah_Crow · September 2015

It takes some time to adapt, but after doing so I'm very happy with 1.7. My Stam DPS is higher than ever and I have better sustain than ever before. Give people time to adapt, try new things, tweak armor and weapons, etc and it will come.

Moonshadow66 · September 2015

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

It takes some time to adapt, but after doing so I'm very happy with 1.7. My Stam DPS is higher than ever and I have better sustain than ever before. Give people time to adapt, try new things, tweak armor and weapons, etc and it will come.

Although I feel my Stam DPS characters (both NB) are lower than ever, the bigger problem I see in NPC enemies being a LOT stronger. F.e. some Worldbosses I soloed before 1.7 I can't solo anymore because I constantly stand in huge neverending red circles and are stunned and feared to the ground. In melee, no chance anymore. Rolldodge out? No stamina anymore, so no resource to fight anymore. Even when my character is VR14/VR16 doing a VR3 boss.. when they have a 360° AOE, I can't stand a chance. A cone AOE however is not a problem.

Other standard mobs I still can fight most of the time, but even there I notice a big difference in the damage they deal now compared to what they dealt before the update. And my stat regens are horrible now also, so the potion cooldown takes way too long.. it now feels like an hour, followed by the death window (if..).
I'm a PvE player in "normal" zones, btw, and f.e. with my magicka Templar I don't have ANY of these problems, because ranged attacks..
I've never done any of the trials though, now I'm not sure if I ever will.

Alcast · September 2015

Once you are v14+ with decent gear, you can easily complete the Trials. Trials are not harder, they feel easier than before. Bosses might feel stronger now because Armor/Spell Penetration is working correctly.

Wing · September 2015

Alcast wrote: »

Once you are v14+ with decent gear, you can easily complete the Trials. Trials are not harder, they feel easier than before. Bosses might feel stronger now because Armor/Spell Penetration is working correctly.

i suppose that's why they're being run so much now. . .oh wait.

getting to the point were the leaderboards are not even filling.

while I feel the nerfs to tanks are a part of it (they are indeed harder to find as most either wont tank outside of their group or moved on to a better playstyle) obviously the fact that everyone that can be in IC is in IC. craglorn is pretty dead, maybe kinda useful for nirn, but it got nerfed too.

nothing in craglorn is relevant anymore, its dead, and ZOS killed it

Teridaxus · September 2015

Well that stuff happens when you don't fix exploits and let it even become the meta ( pen bug ).

I guess imperial city fixes comes with orsinium.

BalticBlues · September 2015

gangyzgirl wrote: »

crippled the players in PVE

This is what happened. It is not only about the nerfs to DPS and tanks, the nerf to shields and Sorcs are also grave, and especially the nerfs to stats where people suddenly lost a big amount of health are killing the fun for many. After being a fan for two months, my daugther stopped playing ESO altogether, because PVE now is "more work than fun" for her.

gangyzgirl wrote: »

Its gotten to the point where few groups are even willing to go through with a Trial without an expensive in game gold price. The Raid groups who once could clear the dungeons twice a week can now no longer even get through it after multiple attempts.

For the newer players who are just starting to get to a point where we can perform in trials, we are unable to get the acheivements or dyes because the groups don't want to go through trials because there a huge difficulty in completing it now with absolutely no loot or gear making the added challenge worthwhile to them.

A game is about having fun.
If people now want to be paid for Trials,
Trials now are probably also more work than fun for them.

Troneon · September 2015

The old way was to have crazy damage and just deeps everything down quickly with burst damage and burst heals....

The new way is to survive long enough, manage resources long enough to complete content, this does not always work if you are against a timed mechanic because then you do need burst.

Basically if the healer has a build where they never run out of magicka and therefore they never run out of heals and the group never runs out of stamina because the healers should be giving group heals and stamina....

You then have never ending heals, never ending magicka, never ending stamina for the whole group and can now takes as long as you like completing the content. Just don't stand in red and block the hard hitting attacks, make sure you have good amount of spell resists and hp so the healers can grab you in time and you don't get one shot. If you go full glass cannon you will die, you can not have low health or resist because the healer will not be able to grab in time, 100% to 0% in one hit = no heals = dead = not healers fault, it's yours for having too low resists and health.

Then all you have to do is learn all the boss mechanics in the game off by heart.

In pve at least it is less about burst now and more about sustaining longer fights. The reason why players just don't bother is because they had it easy for so long and could just go full damage build and mash buttons to win, the gravy train is over, now you have to manage your resources, use your brain and not just burst everything down in seconds...

People want the old burst way back and are not willing to adapt or change to the longer fights and when they die they just give up instead of thinking "why did I die, what can I change?"....

People need to stop assuming their older builds and tactics will work with the latest patch, it will not always work.

The problem in pvp though is now the damage nerf was too high, so no one can kill each other and you just have never ending fights or zergs running around farming. I actually like the change in PVE and think the change in PVP was needed too but just not as much.

BalticBlues · September 2015

Troneon wrote: »

In pve at least it is less about burst now and more about sustaining longer fights.
People [...] are not willing to adapt or change to the longer fights

The PVE problem is not only about longer fights.
The PVE problem also is about fun vs. resource management.

Pre-patch, as a healer I was able to not only heal but also attack sometimes. This was fun.

Post-patch, as a healer I am not only responsible for healing.
With stamina so scarce now, I am now also responsible for the group's stamina regeneration.
This means less choices. I'm now more of the duty guy who just keeps the others running.
Yes, this is also challenging. But it also somehow feels a bit like more work than fun.

Be honest, who of you have indeed more fun with this patch?

Troneon · September 2015

BalticBlues wrote: »

Troneon wrote: »

In pve at least it is less about burst now and more about sustaining longer fights.
People [...] are not willing to adapt or change to the longer fights

The PVE problem is not only about longer fights.
The PVE problem also is about fun vs. resource management.

Pre-patch, as a healer I was able to not only heal but also attack. This was fun.

Post-patch, as a healer I am not only responsible for healing.
With stamina so scarce now, I am now also responsible for the group's stamina regeneration.
I hardly have time to engage in battle now. I'm now just the guy who keeps the others running.
Yes, this is also challenging. But it also somehow feels like more work than fun.

Be honest, who of you have indeed more fun with this patch?

@BalticBlues
I do not have this issue, I am more than able to do a ton of damage, give heals and give stamina all at the same time, except in very few boss fights where the heals are needed in bursts sometimes. I do not have many champion points either so this will become even easier to do once I have hundreds of champion points....

The trick is to learn the mechanics of each fight, and when you know the big boss damage is coming, heal and stop giving out stamina and doing damage, then once boss burst damage stops, top yourself back up to full magicka with potions and heavy attacks, then start doing damage again while giving out stamina with the occasional heal. Just remember to top up your group with stamina and full health before each burst phase.

It works for 99% of content if you have a group who knows what to do and has good builds.

I do agree though that the healer has the hardest job in the game as a giant resource battery for the rest of the group and is expected to still do damage and heal. It is a lot to manage but I love that play style of main group support so for me it is fun. I know my role and if people die it's because they screwed up standing in red or not blocking a one shot boss skill, or because they had too low health or resists.

If it is not fun for you or others, then play a different build or class that you do find fun? I just do not see a problem myself and think it's far better than what we had before where everyone was just bursting everything down in seconds with no skill or thinking involved. Too much easy mode.

NGP · September 2015

They only made the battle spirit to help pvp. The other parts, well, so you wouldn't get too op in pve after getting those v16 new sets.
And now you're like wearing the v12 sets in the past.

BalticBlues · September 2015

Troneon wrote: »

I do not have this issue. [...]
It works for 99% of content if you have a group who knows what to do and has good builds.

Yes, this indeed makes the difference.
And here we have the core of the OP' issue.

If you are playing professionally, at the same times with the same team, the game is great.
If you are playing casually, at random times with random people, the game now is hard.

Troneon wrote: »

If it is not fun for you or others, then play a different build or class

Playing healer IS fun for me. But only within a good group, then I am having a blast. But I only can play at random times and with random people. And with the game getting so hard now, it is incredibly hard to keep random people alive who mostly just do not care about their resources. Then I am even more just the service guy, and after-patch this can be more work than fun.

For many people in this forum, TESO seems to be the most important thing in their life.
But most people out there just want to play one or two hours a day to relax and have fun.
For many of them, this game now is more work than fun.

And if it stays like this, I am afraid the number of players will probably decrease.
And with decreasing players, there probably will be less support for this game in the future.

Troneon · September 2015

@BalticBlues

So mainly you are talking about PUGS not organized groups...

Well it's organized group content....so of course pugs will find it more difficult and you will have to teach them and help each other learn. Join a pve guild for casual organized content runners or get a regular pug contact list going who play at the same time as you and learn it together. Then your pug casual group just turned into a pug casual organized group.

I still fail to see the issue in pve other than pvp where it takes forever for people to be killed and never ending fights or zergs.

I only see this as an issue if you play ultra ultra casual and just want it easy because of not putting any effort in what so ever....

I don't run with organized groups, guilds or any specific teams, but I do have a contact list of great people and players I have collected over the past year or so that I know I can do content with, just have to "communicate".

Having teamspeak or ventrilo etc for voice coms even if you don't have a mic and just listen is also a great help. Something consoles get anyway but I play PC so we don't have automatic voice coms everytime.

The Uninvited · September 2015

Wing wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Once you are v14+ with decent gear, you can easily complete the Trials. Trials are not harder, they feel easier than before. Bosses might feel stronger now because Armor/Spell Penetration is working correctly.

i suppose that's why they're being run so much now. . .oh wait.

getting to the point were the leaderboards are not even filling.

Has nothing to do with it. The trials are not interesting for V16 players, as the best sets now drop in the IC dungeons. For a V16 the loot from trials is not really useful anymore as they don't scale up to V16.

Troneon · September 2015

The Uninvited wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Once you are v14+ with decent gear, you can easily complete the Trials. Trials are not harder, they feel easier than before. Bosses might feel stronger now because Armor/Spell Penetration is working correctly.

i suppose that's why they're being run so much now. . .oh wait.

getting to the point were the leaderboards are not even filling.

Has nothing to do with it. The trials are not interesting for V16 players, as the best sets now drop in the IC dungeons. For a V16 the loot from trials is not really useful anymore as they don't scale up to V16.

Now this is a problem I can agree with ^^ Specifically with VetDSA and Trials, this was a complete failure by the devs not making older content still valid and literally killing any interest in it.

They obviously did it on purpose to push people to buy the DLC and that I think was completely stupid myself. They need to update VetDSA and trials or just removed them from the game. Leaving dead group content in the game and a broken LFG tool is pointless.

I bet you a million gold if they made VR16 loot drop in VetDSA and Trials, suddenly everyone would start trying to find ways of completing them with the new damage nerfs and other changes. Right now, because of the lack of incentive and reward, no one cares or bothers.

I agree with that completely.

leepalmer95 · September 2015

People will have a lot more dmg if they tweak their build and get v15/16 gear.

They'll also have the same sustain.

Wish people would actually upgrade stuff first.

BalticBlues · September 2015

leepalmer95 wrote: »

People will have a lot more dmg if they tweak their build and get v15/16 gear.

And lower ranks received considerable nerfs to their gear. For example, all people in our house have about 15-20% less health now. On the other side, higher ranks received even a buff to their gear. Therefore, the game now is EASIER for higher ranks and HARDER for lower ranks in PVE. Instead of challenging the pro players, the game challenges the casual players to a point where many now feel they have more work than fun.

ZOS Imperial City Patch wrote:

Decreased Health, Magicka, and Stamina enchantments at lower levels. At VR14, these items now provide about 4% more.

Decreased resistances to specific elements, such as fire damage, at lower levels. At higher levels, they were increased by up to 25% at VR14.

Decreased the proc damage (such as Fiery Weapon) at low levels, and increased by up to 7% at VR14.

Decreased the cost reduction at lower levels, though values remain largely unchanged for VR14 player characters.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2200164/#Comment_2200164

leepalmer95 · September 2015

BalticBlues wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

People will have a lot more dmg if they tweak their build and get v15/16 gear.

And how does that apply to people who are "finally gotten character to a high enough level to perform in the Craglorn Trials", as the OP said? Lower ranks received considerable nerfs to their gear. For example, all people in our house have about 15-20% less health now. On the other side, higher ranks received even a buff to their gear. Therefore, the game now is EASIER for higher ranks and HARDER for lower ranks. Instead of challenging the pro players, the game challenges the casual players to a point where many now feel they have more work than fun.

The only ones who benefit are the max vet 16 with v15/16 gear which takes time, in other words if you wan't to have high stats and such you need to work for it.

Previously the difference between a vet 10 and a vet 14 gear wasn't much.

Now the difference between vet 14 and v16 gear is huge and in order to get v16 gear it's a lot of effort and work, more effect = more reward and thats how it should be.

Welcome to mmorpg's were higher level people have higher level gear which means they have higher stats.

Also i don't know what you mean by 'trial' level range, thats was min vet14 last patch and still is min vet 14, simply changing the reduce cost glyphs on jewellry to dmg/regen glyphs will get you more dps and sustain than before the patch.

BalticBlues · September 2015

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Welcome to mmorpg's were higher level people have higher level gear which means they have higher stats.

You think you are a smart guy? So tell me where did I say something different?

As I quoted above from the patch notes, ZOS decreased the stats of low level gear and increased the stats of high level gear. This results in PVE getting more difficult for lower levels. You seem to know nothing about this? For a V14-V16 player this is ok, but then you better should not post your limited wisdom in a complaint thread of a lower level person who now finds "trials extraordinarily more difficult".

"The Raid groups who once could clear the dungeons twice a week can now no longer even get through it after multiple attempts."
Are you saying the OP is making this up in her fantasy?

lolo_01b16_ESO · September 2015

BalticBlues wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Welcome to mmorpg's were higher level people have higher level gear which means they have higher stats.

You think you are a smart guy? So thell me where did I say something different?

As I quoted above from the patch notes, ZOS decreased the stats of low level gear and increased the stats of high level gear. This results in PVE getting considerable more difficult for lower levels. You seem to know nothing about this?. For a V14-V16 player this is ok, but then you better should not post your limited wisdom in a complaint thread of a lover level person who now finds "trials extraordinarily more difficult".

You do realize that v10 enchantments did get buffed? And if you want to do trials (v12-v14 content) below v10, then it's your own choice to be underleveled and you shouldn't complain about not being able to comlete it easiely.

BalticBlues · September 2015

I am not V10 yet. I was just quoting the OP, and I do not think she is making things up. However, I know for sure that all players in our house - who are somewhere between V1 and V9 - are seeing drastically worse stats after the patch, resulting in much harder PVE. For many people I know, this is more work than fun, and I know people who already left the game.

If ZOS wants to challenge people, this is ok.
But then they should better challenge high-level players with more difficult content,
instead of challenging low-level players with more difficult (nerfed) gear.

MaxwellC · September 2015

I have mixed feelings with this update for consoles. My DPS is a tad bit higher due to the increase in mundus stone but other wise I do not like the update to my class especially my regeneration. I'm a DK and to us DK resources are what we need the most, yet I often run out of them spamming up on the d pad to pop a tri pot in PvP.
It was also brought to my attention that ZoS nerf'd the earthen heart passive that provided 5% weapon damage all the time. Now instead it only occurs when in combat which is stupid because I love'd to sneak attack players as a DK.

Don't get me wrong a prime example of how I adapted to these changes which really means me trying to let damage hit me while I regain stamina (Through calculating based on enemys hits and watch even so intently) also holding on till I can re pot.
Let me get back to the story now but yesterday a group of EP level 40-v8 attacked a keep, I took them all on and did not die even when they were all pounding on me with CCs, wrecking blow spams, etc.

TL;DR That is all due to the fact that I literally had to look so hard in order to make sure I didn't leave my stamina at 0. I agree 100% that they should've never nerf'd PvE because anyone can PvP but only a few players can actually play their "role" in PvE.

leepalmer95 · September 2015

BalticBlues wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Welcome to mmorpg's were higher level people have higher level gear which means they have higher stats.

You think you are a smart guy? So tell me where did I say something different?

As I quoted above from the patch notes, ZOS decreased the stats of low level gear and increased the stats of high level gear. This results in PVE getting more difficult for lower levels. You seem to know nothing about this? For a V14-V16 player this is ok, but then you better should not post your limited wisdom in a complaint thread of a lower level person who now finds "trials extraordinarily more difficult".

"The Raid groups who once could clear the dungeons twice a week can now no longer even get through it after multiple attempts."
Are you saying the OP is making this up in her fantasy?

Yes for v14+ gear it's fine, craglorn etc... are end game dungeons if, you really can't complain about lower gear been affected when your attempting to do an end game dungeon underleveled.

It's a lot easier to level now as well so people have no excuses, if they wan't to do end game dungeons get the appropriate level, get decent gear and then go do them.

Alcast · September 2015

Wing wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Once you are v14+ with decent gear, you can easily complete the Trials. Trials are not harder, they feel easier than before. Bosses might feel stronger now because Armor/Spell Penetration is working correctly.

i suppose that's why they're being run so much now. . .oh wait.

getting to the point were the leaderboards are not even filling.

while I feel the nerfs to tanks are a part of it (they are indeed harder to find as most either wont tank outside of their group or moved on to a better playstyle) obviously the fact that everyone that can be in IC is in IC. craglorn is pretty dead, maybe kinda useful for nirn, but it got nerfed too.

nothing in craglorn is relevant anymore, its dead, and ZOS killed it

Think....really jeeez....This is mainly because those trials are ALL over 1year old, nobody gives a flying f...AND you only get useless gear from them, so why bother?

They should make them more difficult so we actually have something to do....I hope they scale them to v16 soon

BalticBlues · September 2015

leepalmer95 wrote: »

It's a lot easier to level now as well so people have no excuses

Yes, PVE quests now give more XP. But PVE quests now also take much longer than before, because they nerfed all lower gear and stats.This way, lower rank people gain nothing. Instead they gain more work (and often less fun).

TayDibiase · September 2015

I feel bad for the casuals and pug groups. I have a few buddies i run with and pre dlc we got every vet dungeon achievement possible, including all 3 in coa hardmode in 1 run. Yesterday that same group did dark shade vet and the difference in the time to burn through it because of resource management was astronomical . I guess zos beter change those speed run times or only hardcore players will be getting them.

leepalmer95 · September 2015

BalticBlues wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

It's a lot easier to level now as well so people have no excuses

Yes, PVE quests now give more XP. But PVE quests now also take much longer than before, because they nerfed all lower gear and stats.This way, lower rank people gain nothing. Instead they gain more work (and often less fun).

It really shouldn't your making it out as if the nerf's completely broke the game, yes they affected stuff but i hardly call losing a bit of dmg and regen game breaking.

PVE is so easy either way, losing a bit of dmg and such doesn't make it hard you can literally walk through this game and spama skill.

Quests times won't be affected much.

Alcast · September 2015

TayDibiase wrote: »

I feel bad for the casuals and pug groups. I have a few buddies i run with and pre dlc we got every vet dungeon achievement possible, including all 3 in coa hardmode in 1 run. Yesterday that same group did dark shade vet and the difference in the time to burn through it because of resource management was astronomical . I guess zos beter change those speed run times or only hardcore players will be getting them.

I really dont get why players(like your friends) always think they can use the same builds postpatch. ADAPT is the magical word, the dungeons are not any harder...once you have v16 gear vs v16 mobs it will be a walk through the garden again.

Where does the stultification of people stop? >.>

Shader_Shibes · September 2015

My magicka nb is loving this update. 16-20k dps when running vwgt makes this one very happy.

Sensesfail13 · September 2015

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Welcome to mmorpg's were higher level people have higher level gear which means they have higher stats.

You think you are a smart guy? So thell me where did I say something different?

As I quoted above from the patch notes, ZOS decreased the stats of low level gear and increased the stats of high level gear. This results in PVE getting considerable more difficult for lower levels. You seem to know nothing about this?. For a V14-V16 player this is ok, but then you better should not post your limited wisdom in a complaint thread of a lover level person who now finds "trials extraordinarily more difficult".

You do realize that v10 enchantments did get buffed? And if you want to do trials (v12-v14 content) below v10, then it's your own choice to be underleveled and you shouldn't complain about not being able to comlete it easiely.

No... they didnt... some were nerfed this patch, some minimally others not so much... Get your facts straight.

Sensesfail13 · September 2015

Alcast wrote: »

TayDibiase wrote: »

I feel bad for the casuals and pug groups. I have a few buddies i run with and pre dlc we got every vet dungeon achievement possible, including all 3 in coa hardmode in 1 run. Yesterday that same group did dark shade vet and the difference in the time to burn through it because of resource management was astronomical . I guess zos beter change those speed run times or only hardcore players will be getting them.

I really dont get why players(like your friends) always think they can use the same builds postpatch. ADAPT is the magical word, the dungeons are not any harder...once you have v16 gear vs v16 mobs it will be a walk through the garden again.

Where does the stultification of people stop? >.>

Its gets to a point where its not just about the adaptation. Some people not only had to replace every piece of gear and enchantment with this patch but had to alter their entire gameplay style after A YEAR AND A HALF OF THE GAME BEING OPERATIONAL. TWICE WITHIN SIX MONTHS. That isnt fun, especially for casual players. Im not a casual player. I have beaten everything in the game and was on the top of the leaderboards regularly in PVE and PVP, I can honestly say this game is more chore than fun now. People want to feel effective in combat not relegated to a task by nerfs to game mechanics/resources. If the game would have been released this way, it would be a different story, if these changes were made incrementally rather than THOR HAMMER SMASHED onto everyones heads overnight, more than likely, we wouldnt even be having these threads pop up. Your reality is not everyone elses and just because your life is all frollicking through the daisies doesnt mean everybodys lives are so easy or so fun. Adaptation... PF.