I would 100% pay for the option to NOT see these things. They could make it an option on each and every single costume, mount, pet... and you know what? I would own the Fire Horse, Ice Horse, Lighting Horse and wedding dress (don't own any of those now) JUST so I could choose not to see them.

If the "hide" option hid everyone else's fantasy horses I would probably actually use them then... it would make me feel special. Like my character was the only one with them!

ZOS can make money here and make everyone happy. One of the few situations in which this is possible.

Well there are plenty of Necromancers in Tamriel. I don't see how this isn't lore-friendly, not to mention that not every player will waste their money on cosmetics.

The wabbajack exists. That's all I've got to say about whether or not DLC items are "immersion breaking".

I just view them as summoned daedra. Pretty sure it's in lore saying daedra make things that imitate our plane but are usually deformed because they lack enough imagination to create their own unique things.

Rampeal wrote: »

I have been playing MMO for YEARS and I can tell you one simple truth. Single player Immersion does NOT exist in ANY MMO and every single one based off of a outside source breaks/changes lore to fit the multiplayer format. The fact that there are other "Heroes" in this game breaks the Immersion and lore immediately. In this storyline there is only one hero and one vestige, You. And Lore is always subject to change, Nothing is set in stone. One simple example is when you finish any of the numerous quest in Tamriel and the NPC gives you their Ancestral family Sword/Axe/Staff that has been passed down for generations, One of a kind mind you, And then you see five players running around with the same weapon....Immersion lost immediately.

That being said everything can be explained and still keep in touch with the lore.

-Skeleton mounts = Necromancy magic
-Polymorphs = illusion magic

Sit back relax and enjoy the ride everyone.

I disagree.
Most of us do not want "single-player immersion", just, you know, general immersion. It can and has been achieved before in this game.

And to counter your 'multiple (player) heroes' argument I first give to you the element of suspension of disbelief. It has been used and employed in videogames and fantasy settings since their conception to explain unrealistic phenomena.
It is why we still feel immersed even though we revive with a soul gem. It is why it is possible to still feel immersed even though we play through other factions storylines through some weird dream. It is why we can still feel immersed despite being able to revive/teleport between wayshrines (though to be fair, that one is relatively explained with an in-game book).
Second are to the various debates regarding the existence or nonexistence of 'other heroes' beside yourself.
If they do exist, there are theories which are supported by a vast amount of ingame phenomena (dragonbreak + incomplete planemeld= time/alternate reality cluster*&%$).
Most of the time however, the game world is set in such a way that the only player hero is you (You queen/king refers to no one else as their chosen.). The rest of the players, within the scope of your story are just....people. Not heroes.

Furthermore, while lore is indeed subject to change (the most clear example maybe being the Arena cover art or the elder scrolls themselves), there are far more artful and respectful ways to do so rather than simply 'poofing' something into existence. The crown store is currently a laughable tool used to that aim in which quality of implementation is close to nonexistent in most cases and in so doing reduce the quality of the items themselves. The icing on the cake is that they are put in as obvious cash grab gimmicks.
Under normal circumstances, I would be ok with their lack of quality. MMOs in general barely pay attention to story that much. But seeing as this is in part an ES game I do expect some measure of quality/consistency be up kept if they want to maintain the ES brand to some reasonable degree. With the effort they put in writing interesting quests, they should at least be able to write something up about the history/attainment of these crown store creatures.

Currently the recent crown store updates is not so much expanding on lore so much as it is disregarding it in favor of a quick buck.
(And I'm with @Gidorick, while it is a shoddy and shady move that would irrevocably lower my esteem for ZOS, I would pay real cash to not see certain crown store items. That's how valuable my immersion is to me. Understandably of course, I would want the option to hide them to given in the base UI for free.)

What Bethesda did with their skeleton horse and dragon riding is ENTIRELY different than what ZOS is doing with the mystical mounts.

In the Soul Cairn in Skyrim, the Dragonborn can complete a side quest to free an undead skeletal horse named Arvak. This mount can then be summoned at will in either Nirn or the Soul Cairn. Arvak's Skull can be found under a glowing pavilion near the big castle. Returning the Skull to its owner will reward the Dragonborn with the Summon Arvak spell.

THAT is why a character can ride around on a skeleton horse in Skyrim... And we spend the ENTIRE game battling and learning the ways of the Dragons which leads us to be able to ride them.

Why can our characters ride a fire, ice and mind shriven horse in ESO? I'm not asking for some made up explanation or fan-fiction. I'm asking for the reason given to us in game. What events lead our to characters riding these mounts?

And no this isn't about all crown store items. You're taking our argument and issue out of context. The problem is that the SPECIAL items in the Crown Store, not the guars or the regular clothes. It's the polymorphs (actually yes, from the game and crown store), and the fantasy mounts.

So, @Rampeal, I'm seriously asking you. What is the reason our characters can ride around on these fantasy mounts in-game or become a draugr, or soon to become a scarecrow? Because I don't see any explanation other than " 'cause the gamer playing that character bought it."

That is what I REALLY want. I want these things to be IN THE GAME. I have said this time and time again.

Here is a thread I wrote about this back in Feb: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/149494/in-game-crown-store-integration-concept/p1

Here a thread requesting the mystical mounts be placed somewhere in game:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/174930/a-request-for-mystical-mount-presence-in-game/p1

Here is a thread where I suggest a solution to this issue... simply have in-game merchants sell the items:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157476/immersive-crown-store-concept

ZOS flat out said NO to that idea on ESO live... and here was my response to that:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/172089/immersive-crown-store-player-response-to-eso-live-answer/p1

If ZOS enabled those who bought the mounts to HIDE the mounts they would make more money. Simple as that. I have yet to buy a fantasy mount because I think they are tacky and ridiculous. If buying them allowed me the option to "magically" see everyone else who rides one as riding a regular horse I would have bought every single one.... Every. Single. One.

If they added the mounts in game... they would make more money. If I could to go the volcanos in EP and see the fire horses running wild I wouldn't have to suspend my disbelief very far to rationalize that this mystical mount roaming free can be broken and ridden... simple solution that ZOS doesn't care to even entertain. If they did the Mind Shriven Horse would have been in one of the stables in IC. Hell, give us a quest where we free the mind shriven horses and they escape IC and are free from their oppressors. That way the horses "story" is even one of sympathy!

So this doesn't get lost... I'm seriously asking you, @Rampeal . What is the reason our characters can ride around on these fantasy mounts in-game or become a draugr or scarecrow?

jeremiah911 wrote: »

I want them and I like them. I wish people would stop using lore like its a holy grail or something as an excuse not to have neat things. It's a game and supposed to be fun. These items are just that. Lighten up people.

I agree. But only to an extent. I don't think 'lore' should ever prevent 'fun' but it depends on the item. Of course if it was too outrageous then I would say its best kept out. I can understand the OP too that seeing hundreds of people running around with a punpkin head or dressed as santa might ruin the..Mood..

Athas24 wrote: »

jeremiah911 wrote: »

I want them and I like them. I wish people would stop using lore like its a holy grail or something as an excuse not to have neat things. It's a game and supposed to be fun. These items are just that. Lighten up people.

I agree 100%! This stuff looks awesome. It's elderscrolls *Ish* and it's fun. It's a game. The lore gods won't hurt you for saying you enjoy having fun... it's ok. lol.

I love having this kind of fun stuff available too. I could care less if it follows the lore or not. I play for fun myself so I don't take it seriously. Heck if they had a zombie polymorph I would totally rock that LOL

I don't mind it. Its parallels the style of the game. It puts money into the game for further development.

Rampeal wrote: »

@Gidorick I bought the item so I am able to do it. ESO store is basically a vendor no different than the stables. So your complaint is because there is no quest involved it ruins immersion? Really? How? How does it ruin immersion? It is no different then magically learning a spell without having any knowledge of said spell or a mentor/teacher to help you learn oy. Nope just poof if you have skill instant learn. You could argue that you taught yourself, but that becomes more mystical than the mounts when you see everyone using a technique or spell that you taught yourself or invented. When you reach veteran ranks and unlock polymorphs just because or when you buy a horse and instantly know how to ride it. This should bother you just as much as store bought stuff and ruin your immersion.

Immersion, like reality, can be a funny thing to define... kinda like the p2w argument. Everyone's definition is different but basically defined within the confines of already established lore which this game kinda wrecks that argument as its in a different time.

That being said I think we can all agree that it is immersion breaking to use a credit card for an in-game mount... and that being said, it is what the market dictates.

Rampeal wrote: »

Zorrashi wrote: »

Rampeal wrote: »

I have been playing MMO for YEARS and I can tell you one simple truth. Single player Immersion does NOT exist in ANY MMO and every single one based off of a outside source breaks/changes lore to fit the multiplayer format. The fact that there are other "Heroes" in this game breaks the Immersion and lore immediately. In this storyline there is only one hero and one vestige, You. And Lore is always subject to change, Nothing is set in stone. One simple example is when you finish any of the numerous quest in Tamriel and the NPC gives you their Ancestral family Sword/Axe/Staff that has been passed down for generations, One of a kind mind you, And then you see five players running around with the same weapon....Immersion lost immediately.

That being said everything can be explained and still keep in touch with the lore.

-Skeleton mounts = Necromancy magic
-Polymorphs = illusion magic

Sit back relax and enjoy the ride everyone.

I disagree.
Most of us do not want "single-player immersion", just, you know, general immersion. It can and has been achieved before in this game.

And to counter your 'multiple (player) heroes' argument I first give to you the element of suspension of disbelief. It has been used and employed in videogames and fantasy settings since their conception to explain unrealistic phenomena.
It is why we still feel immersed even though we revive with a soul gem. It is why it is possible to still feel immersed even though we play through other factions storylines through some weird dream. It is why we can still feel immersed despite being able to revive/teleport between wayshrines (though to be fair, that one is relatively explained with an in-game book).
Second are to the various debates regarding the existence or nonexistence of 'other heroes' beside yourself.
If they do exist, there are theories which are supported by a vast amount of ingame phenomena (dragonbreak + incomplete planemeld= time/alternate reality cluster*&%$).
Most of the time however, the game world is set in such a way that the only player hero is you (You queen/king refers to no one else as their chosen.). The rest of the players, within the scope of your story are just....people. Not heroes.

Furthermore, while lore is indeed subject to change (the most clear example maybe being the Arena cover art or the elder scrolls themselves), there are far more artful and respectful ways to do so rather than simply 'poofing' something into existence. The crown store is currently a laughable tool used to that aim in which quality of implementation is close to nonexistent in most cases and in so doing reduce the quality of the items themselves. The icing on the cake is that they are put in as obvious cash grab gimmicks.
Under normal circumstances, I would be ok with their lack of quality. MMOs in general barely pay attention to story that much. But seeing as this is in part an ES game I do expect some measure of quality/consistency be up kept if they want to maintain the ES brand to some reasonable degree. With the effort they put in writing interesting quests, they should at least be able to write something up about the history/attainment of these crown store creatures.

Currently the recent crown store updates is not so much expanding on lore so much as it is disregarding it in favor of a quick buck.
(And I'm with @Gidorick, while it is a shoddy and shady move that would irrevocably lower my esteem for ZOS, I would pay real cash to not see certain crown store items. That's how valuable my immersion is to me. Understandably of course, I would want the option to hide them to given in the base UI for free.)

I disagree. If you dislike one item from the crown store you must dislike everything in the crown store since everything in there is "simply 'poofing' something into existence."

While it is true that all mounts 'poof' into your particular shard, I was actually more referring to context instead of a tech mechanic (bad wording on my part). The guar and senche for example, both have decent context within the ES franchise, with a significant amount of lore to make their existence seem feasible. An interesting note is that as far as i'm aware, the references to the senche in particular have only been made in books and notes (apart from ESO of course).

The main difference between them and mounts like the Frost Mare are that they have context in the form of lore books, quests, and in-game appearances, while mounts like the Nightmare courser and Skeletal mounts do not. They could, but they don't (one tactfully placed note would do wonders).
Even Arvaak the skeletal ghost horse from Dawnguard has enough context in the form of a quest to make its existence feasible.

Rampeal wrote: »

Even if you mean mounts like the Mind shriven horse or the Nightmare steed again this is a time period with very little lore so lore can be molded as ZOS sees fit. Just because it does not exist in the ES game (lore books which could be false or inaccurate to begin with) series does not mean it never existed.

As right as you are, if we do consider the crown store items as 'new lore', their current implementation is simply below average given Bethesda's history of implementing new lore in the franchise.

The key is that if you are going to implement them, at least do it artfully.

There are several avenues to implement something into lore. Quests, notes, journals, rumors etc.
Once again I cite the existence of Arvak who is very much like a combination of a skeletal mount and mind-shriven horses that are coming to the crown store. Why is it that I am ok with Arvak and not them? Context. I saw, with my own eyes, the events and setting that lead to me attaining that mount. Through the various in-game hints about the nature of the Soul Cairn, I can infer why it is that Arvak exists the way it does.

A feasible enough reason to have their existence make some sense.

Rampeal wrote: »

ZOS has to make money and the Majority of their income comes from the store. ZOS not making money means ZOS will have a short life span, so if they have to put a daedra titan mount on the games store I fully support it.

I'm not advocating to shut down the crown store. But I am saying that if they are going to add new mystical mounts/costumes that they at least have context.

The ES franchise is rich and diverse, so diverse that they can easily work with what they already have at their disposal. If they are unwilling to do that then at very least they should put more effort into the artful implementation of their new mounts in order to make them more believable within the scope of the ES universe.

Rampeal wrote: »

To say ZOS is shady and shoddy and not point the judgmental finger at Bethesda is a bit Hypocritical. Bethesda is cash grabbing just like ZOS.

If you are referring to:

"And I'm with @Gidorick, while it is a shoddy and shady move that would irrevocably lower my esteem for ZOS, I would pay real cash to not see certain crown store items. That's how valuable my immersion is to me. Understandably of course, I would want the option to hide them to given in the base UI for free"

Then I will apologize for my lack of proofreading for I was not referring to ZOS as they are right now.
I was referring to the hypothetical situation where ZOS offered a toggle for crown store items in exchange for real life cash. Or more specifically, having us pay for an optional toggle per crown store item. I view that hypothetical situation in a similar vein to having players have to pay for UI toggles, hence why I said I would view it as "shady and shoddy".
But as you can see, I put up "while it is" instead of "while it would". I will change it if comes off as me degrading ZOS.

Rampeal wrote: »

Hell I would not be surprised if you see some of the mounts and items you hate in the ESO store appear in future ES games. Would it be lore breaking and ruin the immersion then?

It would probably not break my immersion. With the lack of an MMO setting, the crown store premise simply won't fly in a single player game. If they are implemented, it will likely be in the form of a quest. So no, it would likely not ruin my immersion.

Rampeal wrote: »

[...]
I tell you what, show me one item that breaks lore in the crown store. That means I need to see a source (Lore Book) that says this item can not exist.

I simply cannot. (see: Probatio diabolica )
However I do not believe negative proofs should be relied upon to determine what exists.

Rampeal wrote: »

I am really sorry that you hate the change and it affect your immersion. As far as the ability to turn off visual of crown store item...I honestly do not see this happening. There is just to few of players wanting this option to give in to such a demand. Especially since race change will be sold on the Crown store it would soon make all player invisible...well the majority of them.
[...]

Well thank you for you concern. But even though 'just a few players' may want a toggle, that doesn't mean can't still ask for it given the opt-in quality that is a toggle. I actually think quite a few people want it given my guild's reaction in-game, but then again I don't have the numbers to back it up.

But at any rate, I am still going to appeal that ZOS ups their game in terms of crown store implementation. If they are unwilling to use the templates that their franchise already has in its foundations, then they should at least put some more effort in making their new mounts make more sense in the context of the game world.

I like them. Will definetly buy the horse and the elf hero costume that has been datamined.

Im a bit of a TES lore nut myself, I read all the books and while I do not like the mounts (just personal taste) I do like the costume/morphs and will definitely be purchasing them.

They have there place in eso and you shouldn't be too lore crazy in an MMO about everything, you are going to see lots of other players riding one of a kind mounts and so on, its just the way it is. We are all the same hero to apparently, just enjoy the game is my advice because zos has not messed up the lore at all from what I can see, its just because its a TES MMO it seems like it at times.

nimander99 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

drogon1 wrote: »

None of those breaks immersion for me. It's a darn video game, and none of that seems so outlandish as to not fit. Lightsabers would break immersion, but nothing you posted showed that.

What if they were called Soulswords and instead of all that fancy tech they were simply enchanted Telvar hilts with soulgems imbedded inside. The Soulsword would consume the enchantment when used and would need to be recharged to continue to be used.



Would THIS break immersion too? I'm honestly asking @drogon1, not just being silly.

If you look really carefully, you can tell that those lightsabers were being used in Skyrim. There you have it, ladies and gents: Lightsabers are Lore-friendly in the Elder Scrolls timeline.

Edit: Author of this comment is not responsible for your feelings...

Lol.... Does look good, but I could get a laser gun and a naked Olivia Wilde follower in Skyrim if I wanted. Thats a mod for Lightsabers. I agree lets not let Zos start the silly crap route. Please no RL holiday stuff. With 54 known Tamrielic Holidays to choose from, should be easy. (Source: Imperial library)