ZOS needs to tread lightly here. Listening and catering to the whiners is not good. Bungie did it with Destiny and it is the reason I totally abandoned the game back in July. Just realize you can't make everyone happy and tell the rest to suck it.

Game design 101...

Many an MMO has screwed up endgame content, this one included. The problem is you don't use a bazooka to kill cockroaches. If we ask the team to jump off a bridge, will they first consider the validity of the request, or just go "implement".

It's very "BUNGIE" to blame the player base for shortcomings in game design.

I like the game, alot... it could be better.

Agreed with OP and erm...

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

1. Remove champion system and veteran rank
2. Add a skyrim-like perk system where you have 100 points to spend (start with two at character creation plus two every level)
3. Make all magic skill lines consume magicka and add martial arts skill lines for classes instead of breaking the lore making people conjure Daedric armor by flexing their muscles.
4. ????
5. Profit

Wouldn't be a bad idea tbh ..

Well said, JD2013!

KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »

ZOS needs to tread lightly here. Listening and catering to the whiners is not good. Bungie did it with Destiny and it is the reason I totally abandoned the game back in July. Just realize you can't make everyone happy and tell the rest to suck it.

Now the real question: Just who is it that needs to 'suck it'...?

A common misconception about "listening to players" appears to be to think it means "fulfilling player requests". That only applies where:
A ) it concerns an outright bug or
B ) it fits with the vision of the game the devs already had anyway

In all other cases "listening" means "we heard you..............but no" and if you're lucky you will be told why not.


And tbh, looking at some of the request, that's all for the better.
We could have been so much worse of if ZoS had not resisted the call for some awful features by the instant-gratification seekers. I'm thinking things like race change, class change, instant research, account wide crafting skills...............and all those other requests that basically come down to "I don't actually want to play your game anymore".

JD2013 wrote: »

Okay, so it's come to my attention that there's a lot of people on these forums saying that Zenimax do not listen to their player base. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that maybe they listen too much to people.

1) Firstly, when the game was first announced they announced that all players would be stuck in three alliances and that you would not be able to go to enemy lands and territory. Huge backlash. They added VR to counter this. Now people hate this.

2) Players said that the game's difficulty was too hard, Zenimax nerfed the difficulty. People hated this.

3) Players stated that every class was hugely unbalanced. Zenimax tweaked things. People hated this.

4) Players said they wanted real world holiday things in the game. Items have been datamined for Halloween. People hate this.

5) Players said they don't like VR levels. They introduced Champion Points to continue levelling after these and as a system to start removal of VR. People now say that they are unbalanced and don't like this.

6) Players wanted more things to loot. Zenimax introduced hundreds of new (albeit non useful) items with the Justice System to loot and sell. People call it pointless.

7) Players kept saying that classes are broken. They nerf everything including damage. People don't like this.

Those are just a few instances of the times ZOS listened to the players. So, next time you come up with an idea or something for Zenimax, be careful for what you wish for. Because you just might get it. I love Elder Scrolls Online. I have played for a long time now, and have seen many players come and go. I would like to see Zenimax being allowed to make the game that they want to, rather than listening to every single idea here.

Listening to the fans is both a blessing and a curse. It's great that we have people like Gina (she is the star of the ES community) listening to almost everything. But be careful what you wish for, as Zenimax are listening.

*Numbered to make my responses make sense.

1) Glad they did this, playing all the zones is great!
2) I'm on the fence with this one, but I do want to be able to solo the majority of content so I'm o.k with it.
3) Overall I've thought most of the changes have been fairly logical and straight forward.
4) Can't wait, woooooot!
5) I hope Ranks and CP's both stay in game, I love char progression, nothing makes me leave an mmo faster than cap.
6) The Justice System is an excellent source of revenue and materials... and the fluff is sweet, adds depth.
7) I enjoy not being one-shotted out of left field

Over-all the changes made to the game have been really good, It feels much healthier to me as well, I just hope they don't nuke certain systems that I enjoy.

Note: I'm only taking my personal feelings and experiences into account on my responses.

I think this thread is a lot of whining which suggests that ZOS should not listen to whiners. But if they don't listen to whiners then they won't listen to this thread. The only way they listen to your whine about not listening to whiners, is if they actually listen to whiners. And it's a good thing for all of us, they actually do.

Overall I think it's a really bad idea to listen to the players when it comes to balance and in many cases gameplay.

Problem being that nearly every player is an armchair game designer that really knows little about game design.

Furthermore, the players are so overtly biased and have a big can't see the forest for the trees issue.

Lastly, a player isn't in a mindset where self interest is mitigated at all or by anything except conjecture.

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Overall I think it's a really bad idea to listen to the players when it comes to balance and in many cases gameplay.

Problem being that nearly every player is an armchair game designer that really knows little about game design.

Furthermore, the players are so overtly biased and have a big can't see the forest for the trees issue.

Lastly, a player isn't in a mindset where self interest is mitigated at all or by anything except conjecture.

Listening and taking action are two different things. That's why they need to use good judgment and have good filters, to get the few (if any) gold nuggets out of a big pile of dirt. Not listening is not an option.

All that stuff about armchair quarterbacks and seeing trees and not the forest. I think you hit that nail right on the head.

JD2013 wrote: »

Okay, so it's come to my attention that there's a lot of people on these forums saying that Zenimax do not listen to their player base. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that maybe they listen too much to people.

Firstly, when the game was first announced they announced that all players would be stuck in three alliances and that you would not be able to go to enemy lands and territory. Huge backlash. They added VR to counter this. Now people hate this.

Players said that the game's difficulty was too hard, Zenimax nerfed the difficulty. People hated this.

Players stated that every class was hugely unbalanced. Zenimax tweaked things. People hated this.

Players said they wanted real world holiday things in the game. Items have been datamined for Halloween. People hate this.

Players said they don't like VR levels. They introduced Champion Points to continue levelling after these and as a system to start removal of VR. People now say that they are unbalanced and don't like this.

Players wanted more things to loot. Zenimax introduced hundreds of new (albeit non useful) items with the Justice System to loot and sell. People call it pointless.

Players kept saying that classes are broken. They nerf everything including damage. People don't like this.

Those are just a few instances of the times ZOS listened to the players. So, next time you come up with an idea or something for Zenimax, be careful for what you wish for. Because you just might get it. I love Elder Scrolls Online. I have played for a long time now, and have seen many players come and go. I would like to see Zenimax being allowed to make the game that they want to, rather than listening to every single idea here.

Listening to the fans is both a blessing and a curse. It's great that we have people like Gina (she is the star of the ES community) listening to almost everything. But be careful what you wish for, as Zenimax are listening.

So they shouldn't listen at all?

This game has loads of issues. To say it doesn't have any I would merit disregarding anything further.

The problem is, their solutions to these issues have been implemented both 1) in poor design and 2) with little or no follow through.

Regarding 1), what needs to be considered is game design. You don't just make up a game (well, you can I guess) with arbitrary rules and mechanics and throw it out there. There is a certain flow, logic, math, and art to well designed games. ZoS has a history of what appears to be, in many cases, "throwing" things together, maybe due to lack of time, lack of design ability, or lack of resources to test or research.

Regarding 2), When they have thrown things out there, usually it's like, hey it's done we're onto the next thing. Maybe they are under a crunch, or must meet timelines, or whatever, but in games that are somewhat complex, going back to design, if you don't have adequate testing before implementing, you should always reserve a good amount of time after implementing to tweak and "fine" tune. They either walk away once it's implemented, or when it comes to tweaking, throw out huge changes (as opposed to fine tuning with small changes), that leads to a swing in the opposite direction. Which leads to frustration on their end, on our end, etc.

ESO, and many other games too, generally reek of a certain "desperation" to meet deadlines, make certain profit margins, to meet the demands of the customers too. And with that kind of pressure of make it or break it on your shoulders, it adds a lot of stress and pressure and hastiness which can be seen in the product. Scotty could do it with Kirk on his back, but that was fiction, in the real world, it's more common to make more mistakes in that environment. And those just keep adding to the fire.

Unfortunately, this cycle has generally been happening since the beginning. And it's hard to get out of. The whole culture has to change and the stakeholders have to be understanding of game design 101, as well as business 101, and sometimes they don't they just want ROI (return on investment). Add to that the pressure of what an elder scrolls title -should- bring in.

This kind of situation is nothing new to the game industry, some companies are prepared, some aren't, some dive in and learn to swim real fast, some drown.

A lot of ESO players like it because it's ES, a lot like it because it truly is a beautiful game, some like the unique combat system, some like the voice overs on everything. The beginning and midgame are awesome and suck you in. Certainly huge plusses and massive kudos to ZoS. But it's hard to maintain a pretty package over a cracked foundation.

I don't say these things to dis ZoS, I just hope they see what some of us may see, I'm certainly not suggesting any wild fixes to specific issues. Just saying, slow your roll, try to alleviate pressures and avoid reacting hastily, design the game well, fine tune. If you can't, the cycle will continue to alienate the new console players and they can be added to the list of PC players that have left. Now is the time to regroup if there ever was one.

Also keep in mind, new content is nice, but what has been really needed for a long time was a lot of fixing and tuning. There are 2 reasons why a player would leave 1) bored from lack of content 2) done with a crappy game. Those in #2 are far more unlikely to return than #1. If the game is smooth, functional, and designed well, you might lost some players for lack of content, but they are likely to come back with new content. If a player leaves pissed off, frustrated, and doesn't have faith or trust in the company, likely you'll never see them again. New content is great but if it implemented poorly and bringing with it more bugs and problems, and not putting resources in fixing old ones, people might get sick of it regardless that you are bringing out something shiny.

If you're interested there is a show on netflix called Atari: Game Over. Smaller scale but a neat documentary on the epic failings of the production of the game ET back in the day.

@Sylvyr, your sig PVP: Patch vs. Player, is a humorous, appropriate, and succinct summation of this latest update in particular. And applies to both sides of the discussion here.

I'm certainly not advocating them never listening. Feedback is a natural thing.

What they need to remember is that the customer isn't necessarily always right.

Rikal wrote: »

Listening and taking action are two different things. That's why they need to use good judgment and have good filters, to get the few (if any) gold nuggets out of a big pile of dirt. Not listening is not an option.

All that stuff about armchair quarterbacks and seeing trees and not the forest. I think you hit that nail right on the head.

I think for the purpose of bugs, exploits and hacks they should listen.

Rest of it... it's really difficult to discern what's credible.

I'll give you an example: I think that stealth detection range should be at least increased threefold for the health of the game. Course if I'm a nightblade with invisibility at will, that means a buff.. a huge one. But, it can be spun as "I'm thinking of the overall health of the game guys, look I'm a stealth class and I'm calling for a nerf to stealth!" But actually I'm really not, I'm asking for a huge buff to gameplay for myself.

Worst part of it all is how the players often react to anything they disagree with by saying things like X at ZOS should be fired for being an idiot. That's what the devs get for ever responding or even showing they /lurk.

JD2013 wrote: »

I'm certainly not advocating them never listening. Feedback is a natural thing.

What they need to remember is that the customer isn't necessarily always right.

I had to give a big old agree on this one. Customers are often not right, but you still should listen to them;) It's a tough job, but I think it's good practice.