wizardpsx wrote: »

Spottswoode wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Soooo you didn't pay for the DLC, but you still feel you should be able to do the DLC dungeons?

Come on guys. Really?

Uhh. No. I feel we should be able to do the standard dungeons on the DLC dungeon days instead.

This is correct. The perfect example is destiny.

I never bought any DLC but had the base game. I was told that each week there will be a nightfall mission (raid) and each day there would be a heroic strike (mini-raid) that i can play with my character.

Well their maps for the daily and weekly went on rotation. the first 2 DLC added 2 raids to the rotation which means that for 14 days i COULD NOT play what i normally could play before DLC. I would get to play 2-3 times out of 7 days a week the daily mini raids.

No one is asking the NON-DLC player to be able to enjoy DLC/expansion content. But game features should not be privileged to people who shell money out every 3 months.


Change this example from pledges to PVP cyrodiil: What if, on every sunday there was an event (some world boss spawns) in cyrodiil with amazing loot but anyone who doesnt have the DLC can't have access to it. that means on sundays non-DLC can not partipate in PVP. would you tell them to just "go do something else"?

What Zenimax is doing is what destiny is doing and is basically a "Business Decision" they are locking content around new cash flow. I abhore the business practice of DLC in non-mmo games. but that maybe because im an older gamer that remembers how multiplayer games were before DLC existed. it was all about the game play, not the cosmetics/cash grab.

I'm curious if you prefer the Neverwinter model?

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

I'm going to now go and not drive the porsche I have not purchased not to the house I don't own.

See what I didn't do there?

(I'm also going to not eat the not dinner my not spouse didn't make.)

You (don't) get what you (don't) pay for.

Pretty basic stuff.

Except you already purchased the Porsche and when a new satellite antenna is made available for it, you don't suddenly lose access to your navigation system one day a week just because you didn't purchase the upgrade.

@Hiero_Glyph agreed. I do still have the Porsche. In fact, I can still drive anywhere the current navigation coverage allows me to, seven days a week.

However, I cannot expect to have coverage if I try to drive somewhere the old navigation system doesn't cover that the new (paid upgrade) one does and expect to know where I'm going.

Spottswoode wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You are also correct.

You are not able to use that which you did not pay for. You are not excluded from gameplay on DLC pledge day.

That would be an issue worthy of being upset.

If you wish the reward or the option to do the content, buy or lease the content. You're not prevented from doing anything else. (And there is more than enough content to level Undaunted to 10 twice over without doing either new dungeon, so that is no excuse either.)

You (don't) get what you (don't) pay for.

Pretty basic stuff.

Time is of the highest order here. And if there are several DLC pledge days that you don't own, you actually miss out on several days worth of pledges. You are can't do pledges, you aren't getting what's in the game.
There are numerous achievements to level the undaunted skill line and they are all considerably slower than undaunted pledges. They also don't give any gear.
You are excluded from doing pledges on DLC pledge day. When there's two or three of them in a row, it gets to be quite cumbersome. Especially if you only have a few days to play a week.

nine9six wrote: »

Nope.

I wish this game was still Subscription Only, so the freeloaders would go back to playing...whatever the hell freeloaders play.

We lost that fight.

@Spottswoode, what I will give you is that doing the non-pledge dungeons (translated as an dungeon other then the pledge day dungeon) is not as easy as it once was, ironically because of the pledges.

(Unless it's a first run, most people don't take the time on a non-pledge day, as they know it will come around regardless.)

Even so, Undaunted 10 is quite manageable without ever using these two new dungeons. (And no offense to anyone out there, but the two Vet versions are unlikely to be completed in short order, so you will not see the credit from these for a while anyway.)

They've toned it (the achieve's) down considerably. Damage dealer, etc still don't factor in the x10 increase that took place in 1.6. You get named enemy and enemy kill credit in non-Group dungeons, too.

The other things require repetition, repetition that does not require it to be on a pledge day. (Doesn't have to be gold key time to kill X atronachs/spiders/etc, etc, etc.)

The achieve's don't give gear, you are correct. Running the dungeon enough times to get the achieve's most definitely gives gear. (The end boss even potentially gives gear that would normally be exclusive to the DLC, btw, all but VR16 versions, anyway.) The group dungeons are also an excellent way to get XP, still - it's one of the few not-as-nerfed versions out there.

There are 25 pledges that do not require DLC. There are four that do. The odds are still very much in your favor.

Not to go all "You kids get off my lawn!" or anything, but you should have seen the pace to Undaunted 5 (max then) before pledges and the x10 factor.

Regarding "Sub only" wishes, I fail to understand how you could be okay with paying a sub for access to everything but not be okay paying less than the sub cost for the same?

Presently, if you don't buy or lease the content, you have access to 95% or more of the game. Under the old system, if you didn't lease the content, you'd have access to zero.

Two-month's sub (= crowns) or a crown pack gets you unlimited access 'till the end of time.

I'd like all of you to have access to anything you'd want to do. I simply don't think the asking prices is unreasonable.

If the asking price is unreasonable, it's not unreasonable for someone to have access to ever other part of the game at zero cost.

Regarding ultimate exclusion from content as new pledges are added, you do realize their ultimate goal is to get people to buy the content, right?

If you wish full access, you buy full access. It's the difference between front row seats at a concert vs paying for parking and listening outside.

Their goal is to get you to buy. They're not about to bypass their own incentive by way of exclusion.

wizardpsx wrote: »

phaseadept wrote: »

I'm curious if you prefer the Neverwinter model?

im not familiar with that model, what was it like?

my philosophy is if i pay X for a game, it should give me the same stuff 10 years from now. some examples are single player games. if you buy mario. its the same game if you play it now or 10 years from now.

Multiplayer games have 2 variety.
-Servers hosted by companys (blizzard-wow, zenimax-ESO)
-Servers hosted by peer to peer
-Servers hosted by server-program (made free with game)

obviously the company approach needs money to pay for resources to keep going. I think they should charge for that, but not as a justification to DLC.

again im not against DLC for a MMO type game like ESO. and im all for it costing money to run the business. but it should never prevent players from doing something that they COULD have been doing before the DLC dropped.

The neverwinter model was purchase everything you need/want with $$, expansions are free. In other words, it's pay to win.

This model, mich like the previous one ESO used is: purchase a subscription and you get all content, refuse to purchase a subscription you can still play the original content you paid for, but get DLC at a vastly reduced rate from
Paying per month.

UrQuan wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Because you can skip it for a single day? You can't enjoy new content obviously without the dlc, so why should dlc buyers, you know the people keeping zos afloat and helping to support the game not be able to enjoy nee content as pledges?

I think you missed the point. The point is that the pledge quest should only be available if you've purchased the DLC, not that it shouldn't exist at all.

If you have the DLC, you should get 10 pledges in the rotation; if you don't, you should get 8. If the daily pledge for someone who owns the DLC rolls around to a DLC-required one, then it should have an alternative for those who do not.

eg:

Has DLC        Does Not Have DLC
Wayrest        Wayrest
Spindle        Spindle
WGT            CoH
Fungal         Fungal
CoA            CoA
BC             BC
CoH            CoH
Prison         Spindle
Darkshade      Darkshade
Hollow         Hollow

I'm assuming the pledges are chosen at random, and not on an exact cycle, so this should be a relatively easy thing to do.

Ideally it would work something like what you've laid out here, except that in my mind it would be better if on the days when a DLC dungeon is the pledge, people with access can select whether they want to do that dungeon, or whether they want to do the pledge that people without the DLC get. That way, people with the DLC aren't stuck with a pledge that none of their friends can do if their friends don't have the DLC. Of course, you'd still only be able to do 1 gold pledge per day - I don't mean to suggest that people with the DLC should get to do both the DLC dungeon pledge and the non-DLC dungeon pledge on those days.

Can Pledges be shared? If so, that would address the friends-without-DLC issue; someone without the DLC would just share the non-DLC pledge to you, and as soon as you have it, the other would no longer be available.

frenchyuk86 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I was assuming this was a bug, as they have stated that all Imperial City content is "optional". If it's optional, it shouldn't affect the base game at all, and this is an effect on the base game.

Daily pledge is optional.

Whether optional or not, Daily Pledges are base game content, and thus part of the core system. This particular part of the core system concerns daily quests - quests that can be completed every day by people who own the base game - and the way it currently is, this core system is no longer a daily activity. Core content should not be affected by optional content.

As Spottswoode said somewhere else, if this trend continues with future DLC, then the players of the base game will no longer have Undaunted dailies to do - they will be Undaunted weeklies. And that goes counter to Tamriel Unlimited: "The entire original game and all six major content updates since launch". This includes Update 5, which introduced "new Undaunted Enclaves and Pledges [...] Each type of pledge may be performed every 20 hours". This means that, without paying anything extra, you should be able to complete one Vet and one Normal pledge every 20 hours, and this is currently not possible.

Enodoc wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Because you can skip it for a single day? You can't enjoy new content obviously without the dlc, so why should dlc buyers, you know the people keeping zos afloat and helping to support the game not be able to enjoy nee content as pledges?

I think you missed the point. The point is that the pledge quest should only be available if you've purchased the DLC, not that it shouldn't exist at all.

If you have the DLC, you should get 10 pledges in the rotation; if you don't, you should get 8. If the daily pledge for someone who owns the DLC rolls around to a DLC-required one, then it should have an alternative for those who do not.

eg:

Has DLC        Does Not Have DLC
Wayrest        Wayrest
Spindle        Spindle
WGT            CoH
Fungal         Fungal
CoA            CoA
BC             BC
CoH            CoH
Prison         Spindle
Darkshade      Darkshade
Hollow         Hollow

I'm assuming the pledges are chosen at random, and not on an exact cycle, so this should be a relatively easy thing to do.

Ideally it would work something like what you've laid out here, except that in my mind it would be better if on the days when a DLC dungeon is the pledge, people with access can select whether they want to do that dungeon, or whether they want to do the pledge that people without the DLC get. That way, people with the DLC aren't stuck with a pledge that none of their friends can do if their friends don't have the DLC. Of course, you'd still only be able to do 1 gold pledge per day - I don't mean to suggest that people with the DLC should get to do both the DLC dungeon pledge and the non-DLC dungeon pledge on those days.

Can Pledges be shared? If so, that would address the friends-without-DLC issue; someone without the DLC would just share the non-DLC pledge to you, and as soon as you have it, the other would no longer be available.

frenchyuk86 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I was assuming this was a bug, as they have stated that all Imperial City content is "optional". If it's optional, it shouldn't affect the base game at all, and this is an effect on the base game.

Daily pledge is optional.

Whether optional or not, Daily Pledges are base game content, and thus part of the core system. This particular part of the core system concerns daily quests - quests that can be completed every day by people who own the base game - and the way it currently is, this core system is no longer a daily activity. Core content should not be affected by optional content.

As Spottswoode said somewhere else, if this trend continues with future DLC, then the players of the base game will no longer have Undaunted dailies to do - they will be Undaunted weeklies. And that goes counter to Tamriel Unlimited: "The entire original game and all six major content updates since launch". This includes Update 5, which introduced "new Undaunted Enclaves and Pledges [...] Each type of pledge may be performed every 20 hours". This means that, without paying anything extra, you should be able to complete one Vet and one Normal pledge every 20 hours, and this is currently not possible.

No, @Enodoc , pledge quests cannot be shared.

One alternative to this would be to change them from dailies to weeklies - giving you a chance to do each dungeon once per week for the reward.

This way, if you missed a day due to IRL concerns, you wouldn't simply lose it forever.

Choice is good, but the simple fact is you will have access to the content you have access to only.

I suspect they will implement 'free weekends,' or trial memberships allowing you to check out the content without keeping the rewards (unless you choose to buy at the end) and likely even on discount.

DLC eventually goes on sale, it's just a matter of time.

The game Gran Turismo 5 is an excellent example here.

DLC was released with the expectation that to access the content one would need to purchase the DLC.

HOWEVER

For the 'Seasonal Events', which can be equated to the pledges just not updated daily (though one could access them daily), they made the content available for everyone. It meant that they were able to include the content in the events but weren't forcing people to purchase it in order to get involved.

It went down a treat and was, widely, well received. I see no reason for it to not be the same here. There's soooo much more content than the daily pledge, why not give folks a taste and then you just might find more people buying the full DLC.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

I'm going to now go and not drive the porsche I have not purchased not to the house I don't own.

See what I didn't do there?

(I'm also going to not eat the not dinner my not spouse didn't make.)

You (don't) get what you (don't) pay for.

Pretty basic stuff.

Except you already purchased the Porsche and when a new satellite antenna is made available for it, you don't suddenly lose access to your navigation system one day a week just because you didn't purchase the upgrade.

@Hiero_Glyph agreed. I do still have the Porsche. In fact, I can still drive anywhere the current navigation coverage allows me to, seven days a week.

However, I cannot expect to have coverage if I try to drive somewhere the old navigation system doesn't cover that the new (paid upgrade) one does and expect to know where I'm going.

The critical difference is that before the antenna upgrade was offered there were no places you could drive that wouldn't have coverage. It was only after the new antenna was made available that the coverage area was suddenly reduced.

AlnilamE wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

As Spottswoode said somewhere else, if this trend continues with future DLC, then the players of the base game will no longer have Undaunted dailies to do - they will be Undaunted weeklies. And that goes counter to Tamriel Unlimited: "The entire original game and all six major content updates since launch". This includes Update 5, which introduced "new Undaunted Enclaves and Pledges [...] Each type of pledge may be performed every 20 hours". This means that, without paying anything extra, you should be able to complete one Vet and one Normal pledge every 20 hours, and this is currently not possible.

I think the greater problem for people who don't have the DLC is that even if they had an alternate pledge (which I will argue the Silver pledge actually is), their pool of players to draw from would be so reduced that they would be unlikely to find someone to run the pledge with them (unless they had friends willing to run vet dungeons when they are not the pledge).

A fair point, if the silver pledges would mandate vet. That way they could get helm drops with them. (I'll overlook the fact they only give silver keys and less XP.)

wrote:

If you look at the game demographic that is really intent on the pledges and tries to get them done most days, how many would already have the DLC? 80%? I'd think more, but let's go with that. So if there is a "B pledge" for people who don't have the DLC, they would only have 20% of the normal pledge pool to group with, making it harder for them to get a group.

Because the people who have the DLC are likely to want to run the new dungeon rather than vetBC that they've run 300 times already, plus the new dungeon gives them gear they can't find as easily elsewhere.



And this will only get worse as we get more DLC (unless they make the current IC dungeons "base game" before they release the next set).

See...once again, the problem is THAT'S RIGHT NOW. As more and more DLC comes out, there will be players who have D DLC but don't have F DLC.

wrote:

Because as more dungeons are locked behind DLC, the subsets of players that would need to be accommodated would would increase. So if you have 3 DLCs, you'd need to accommodate 6 separate groups of people potentially. And that would be a logistical nightmare unless they make "don't have access to today's dungeon = make pledge Spindleclutch" the default. And how many times do you want to run spindle?

Actually, there are only two sets. One who have the DLC pledge and those who don't. Those who don't have whichever DLC get stuck in the don't category. There isn't a need to filter out numerous lists. If you don't have a DLC for one of the DLC days, you get the one from the non-DLC list.

wrote:

And if they kept the Pledges to what they were before IC (and consequently removed the new boss sets from the game), people would eventually stop doing them because they would be tired of those dungeons and there would be new dungeons to do.

The whole idea behind the pledges was to get a large pool of players interested in doing the same dungeon any given day so it would be easier to find groups. Creating subsets of groups defeats the purpose of the pledges to begin with.

That's actually a selling point of mine. Sure they'll tire of doing old pledges eventually and they'll probably buy new DLC pledges, but they'll still be able to do daily gold pledges every day. It doesn't defeat the purpose to have two categories. Because you basically already do with the current standing.


I'll say this once again, this would only work if they fix group finder. As it stands, it is currently unmanageable.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

1/ This "non-DLC" list would be restricted to the X few dungeons of the initial base game and fewer and fewer people will bother doing them, even if they only have the base game. Because everything gets boring after too many runs. People would *again* cry and whine that it is an unfair incentive into buying DLC and will demand other ways to achieve gold keys and helmet/shoulders (because frankly that's all people want from gold keys).

2/ There would still be a need for multiple lists because frankly... later on, when there are multiple DLCs, there will be multiple profiles.

Imagine someone who has DLC2 but not DLC1. Daily pledge is from DLC1. That person should be happy with a pledge from base game ? No, they will -rightfully - claim their daily pledge from DLC2 which they have paid for. They shouldn't be "treated" like people who have bought no DLC at all.

That literally makes no sense.
1.There is no need for multiple lists. If they don't have the DLC needed for the daily pledge, they get the Non-dlc list. There's not a need to make multiple redundant lists.
2.Then they buy the DLC or get the same old pledge.
IT STILL SELLS THEM. THEY STILL GET TO DO DAILY GOLD PLEDGES REGARDLESS.

Spottswoode wrote: »

That literally makes no sense.
1.There is no need for multiple lists. If they don't have the DLC needed for the daily pledge, they get the Non-dlc list. There's not a need to make multiple redundant lists.
2.Then they buy the DLC or get the same old pledge.
IT STILL SELLS THEM. THEY STILL GET TO DO DAILY PLEDGES REGARDLESS.

I just explained you why there would still be the need for multiple lists : Because people who have bought a DLC are entitled to get pledges from the ALL the content they've bought and not be restricted to base-game just like the people who have bought no DLC at all.
The fact that you don't understand it doesn't make it senseless.
Either you explain why you disagree with me or there's no point discussing with you.

Spottswoode wrote: »

There's not an overwhelming need for everyone to do their DLC pledges over normal pledges.

There's not an overwhelming need for people who have SPENT MONEY to get extra content to actually PLAY IT ??? As opposed to play the same content they've already played a thousand time ??


LOL...

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

+
The point you missed is that if you have some of the DLC but not all of it and you get a pledge for a dungeon of the DLC that you do not own then you can always accept the vanilla pledge. .../...There is always a pledge available for you to do.

Oh I got that point. I simply plain disagree with it and explained why.

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

So you want the pledge population to be split X+1 different ways (where X is the number of released DLCs) instead of into 2 groups? Yeah, that sounds like a great way to find a group quickly. It's not like you would reroll the dungeon for that day until you get the one you want, it's either a DLC pledge for content you own or a guaranteed pledge for the base game. You can disagree all you want but what you are proposing only hurts the pledge community by separating them too much over time. When 4 DLCs are released, you propose to have 5 different pledges available; that's a system just asking to be exploited/farmed.

No, I don't want that at all. I'm just saying that is what would happen if we start making different pledges for different people. I want no lists at all. I want the daily pledges to include ALL available dungeons including ALL DLC dungeons. People who don't have the DLC for the pledge on any given day just don't get a pledge for that day. End of story. That's the only way to keep the purpose of daily pledges and to not split the community.

That's how ZOS does it now and I think it's OK.

Also, the DLC pledge and non-DLC pledge groups are future proof even after 10+ DLCs are added. I never understand when people are against options that have no negative effect on them. Seriously, why is it a bad thing to let players run Spindleclutch for a daily pledge when you can run Imperial Prison instead?

Saddiq wrote: »

I see it both ways.

On the one hand, I agree with you that it looks sleazy to wave inaccessible (by your choice) DLC in front of your face. Immersion breaking and all.

On the other hand, it's tough enough finding groups as it is, and before vet COA was added to the pledges, it was very difficult to find a group that wasn't just farming it (skipping large parts of it) for the helm. Given the difficulty of the IC dgns, it would probably be equally difficult to group up for these. As such, 'forcing it' on players in the pledges incentivizes us to create more groups and play it.

Now if they'd only add Shada's Tear and Skyreach to the pledges, I might finally find a group for those after failing to in zone calls and group tools for many months now.

They have really nerfed Shada's and Skyreach. I'm pretty sure most classes at vr14 could just solo them. I went though there with some friends we were all vr1, total of 3 of us, and we killed Shada before her first invulnerable phase.