Please remove the stamina regen nerf on blocking. PLEASE.

Alucardo · September 2015

It's just too much. I'm finding it difficult to level new alts between the overpowered snares and zero regen during blocking. I thought I could make it work, and tried, but it's ridiculous.

The problem for stamina builds: Being battle levelled in PVP is making it hard to run a stam build because my stam regen is so low. Having a higher reserve doesn't help because you burn through it quickly with expensive dodge rolling, break frees, and now, zero regen from blocking. No amount of stats on my gear will help me because they are completely ignored thanks to battle levelling. I gave up my ultimates and slotted two werewolf transformations just to make it slightly bearable. My Hist Bark set is next to useless - 20% dodge chance while blocking. Well, now I try to limit my blocking, what's the point?

The problem for magicka builds: All points generally go into magicka, so their stamina reserves are quite low to begin with. Now they can't even regen while blocking. But it's okay - they've got wards right? Nerfed. But now they are being told by ignorant players to stop using shields to prevent the insane damage from Shield Breaker. So I don't understand - they are being told they can't block by ZOS and can't use shields, while wearing LIGHT AMOUR. I don't play magicka characters much, but this is something I have picked up on the forums, and it seems pretty stupid to me.

These are the words from someone who does not have a VR14-16 character and no battle levelling, so I'm unable to max out my stamina regen, weapon damage, resistance, etc. Either we need a way to enhance our attributes like normal (armour, weapons, jewellery), or this block nerf needs removing/revamping.

Would be interested to hear other peoples experiences, but please try to keep it troll-free (we can dream).

Thanks

Sensesfail13 · September 2015

I have multiple vr16 characters and can honestly say I agree with you and that this should have never been implemented and the changes to skills/skill lines should not have been changed in preparation for such a moronic change to game mechanics.

Wing · September 2015

yup, forms of defense like dodge rolling and blocking are pretty dead. that's why everyone is rocking heavy armor, you can get away with light if your like a sorc and can stack shields, but now its all about that passive defense.

active defense is a thing of the past, and Eric killed it.

tpanisiakb16_ESO · September 2015

Still not having "fun" with these new tank changes. I use to love running guildies through dungeons, now it's a hassle and I feel like a cripple.

We've never leaderboarded vDSA (although, we did come close!), but we had all vet dungeon challenges complete, now I feel like a nub all over again, fumbling around, apologizing, "sorry, out of stam..."

Thanking feels clunky, messy, and downright headache inducing in its current form.

hardcore_gmr · September 2015

To play devils advocate here, the stamina regen nerf only prevents you from stamina regen while blocking. If you are not holding block your stam regen is the exact same as before. All the nerf did was force players to change their playstyle and adopt a more active approach to defense rather than simply "turtling up" and calling ones self a tank. You now have to block then release, block then release. You have to use other defensive skills, you now have to use health potions while leveling. Does it make the game harder, yes. But does it make the game more interesting now that you cannot just hold one button for defense, in my opinion yes. I think once people get more comfortable with some simple playstyle changes the nerf will be less an issue and many will be thankful because the game becomes more active now. Now when you meet a good tank, you know they are better than just a damage sponge, they are a survival expert. And to me that is an improvement over just holding block, and casting a taunt, then back to block. Just my opinion though.

Wing · September 2015

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

To play devils advocate here, the stamina regen nerf only prevents you from stamina regen while blocking. If you are not holding block your stam regen is the exact same as before. All the nerf did was force players to change their playstyle and adopt a more active approach to defense rather than simply "turtling up" and calling ones self a tank. You now have to block then release, block then release. You have to use other defensive skills, you now have to use health potions while leveling. Does it make the game harder, yes. But does it make the game more interesting now that you cannot just hold one button for defense, in my opinion yes. I think once people get more comfortable with some simple playstyle changes the nerf will be less an issue and many will be thankful because the game becomes more active now. Now when you meet a good tank, you know they are better than just a damage sponge, they are a survival expert. And to me that is an improvement over just holding block, and casting a taunt, then back to block. Just my opinion though.

the current meta disagrees with you.

people are doing one of two things:

-building to be able to perma block / dodge roll despite the nerfs

-ignoring block and dodge roll altogether and finding other forms of mitigation (stacking heavy armor and various other +armor / +spell resist buffs, bubbles, out healing damage, etc.)

none of those work WITH the nerf, we are all just doing what we can to get AROUND it. ZOS listened to Eric, failed, and the players/game paid the price. it didn't make combat / tanking more enjoyable, it became a hassle, and I for one do not enjoy "watch your green bar online: tamriel unlimited"

BTW I'm one of those that simply switched to stacking heavy armor and other buffs, and have stopped tanking for anyone, and will not tank again until the issues are fixed, its not fun, plain and simple.

Kupoking · September 2015

Well, tbh since patch came out, all the tanks I know are doing well with the stam nerf in all content.

I feel the transition overall is a success.

Alucardo · September 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Well, tbh since patch came out, all the tanks I know are doing well with the stam nerf in all content.

Actually, 2 people on this thread already have claimed to be tanks and said they aren't enjoying the nerf, so you're statement is somewhat wrong. We now know of 2 tanks they do not like block nerf. Besides, it's not just tanks it affects. I'm levelling a stam nb - they don't really have anything in the way of defence other than blocking. Them few seconds during combat you're blocking and not receiving any stamina actually add up and make quite a difference. Like I said as well - I'm battle levelled. My stam regen is already super low, and gear has no affect. I sucked down a pot and it didn't even change my stats. It is a major hindrance

Corellon Thromorin · September 2015

Just change to a -50% stamina regen while blocking and be done with it. Nerf, but don't ruin it.

DDemon · September 2015

I have a Dragon Knight tank as an alt, prior to the patch I really enjoyed playing it, it wasn't a DPS heavy tank, but one tailored to take a hit and be good at it. While doing this I was able to keep taunts on bosses and some adds quite well, chain pull in adds and place mobs in locations favorable for the DPS to deal with them. Obviously I did have to make sure I did not run out of stam already, as with many adds it was still possible to run out and/or die. Since the patch I changed my build somewhat, am no longer using any regen drinks, and went for an overall larger stam buffer, and have absolutely no problem keeping my stamina up and tank well enough to pull my group through.

With that said, that is now currently all I am doing, taunt boss, stand still and pop skills/pots that give stam back and proc my engine guardian. Needles to say, I am no longer enjoying my game time playing as a tank, but I _have_ to, because so many of the people simply stopped playing their tanks, or have re skilled into DPS.

I would really like to do the same thing, but then we will no longer be able to do trails. Pledges aren't that much of an issue, as most of them can be done with no tank, or a DPS with some buffer and a taunt. Whit the exception of the new IC dungeons of course.

-edit
Might also be worth mentioning I have about 70 points in block cost reduction champ points, and am using 3x block cost reduction glyphs on jewelry.

Zsymon · September 2015

Wing wrote: »

the current meta disagrees with you.

people are doing one of two things:

-building to be able to perma block / dodge roll despite the nerfs

There is no way anyone is building for perma dodge, it's mathematically impossible. It's just another lame rumor that goes around and gets picked up thoughtlessly. Two dodges every 6 seconds is as good as anyone gets now, no matter how much stamina or stamina recovery they have (which got nerfed badly as well, on top of everything else).

They should just put dodge roll on a hard cooldown already, so we don't accidentally dodge too much and lose all our stamina. I had to unbind my dodge key and stop using it altogether because my old reflexes kept hitting it to avoid incoming heavy hits.

Active defense is dead as a door, dodge is gone and blocking is only available to dedicated tanks with everything into block cost reduction. The only way to go now is just soak up all the damage and outheal it, much like every other old fashioned outdated MMO. Soon they will nerf healing even more to make sure we can't outheal any damage in PvP, after which the game just becomes one big DPS race in both PvE and PvP.

Good job ZOS, you ruined the only truly unique thing your game had going for it.

actosh · September 2015

DDemon wrote: »

-edit
Might also be worth mentioning I have about 70 points in block cost reduction champ points, and am using 3x block cost reduction glyphs on jewelry.

Thats not good. To much diminishing returns for around 650-500stamcost per block.

I use 1blockglyph and 15%reduction from the cp and my block costs around 720-780 per hit.

This way i got 2 jewelry enchants free and more freedom in the cp system.

Check out @Personofsecrets math and spreadsheet to find a good way for u. Pretty insightfull.
I tank and i only get probs if i either do too much dps(stam spec) or the grp is *** and needs one month to kill trash.

newtinmpls · September 2015

DDemon wrote: »

currently all I am doing, taunt boss, stand still and pop skills/pots that give stam back and proc my engine guardian.

I hope you don't mean that literally. Standing still is like waving a red flag at the AI saying "please attack me, I'm an idiot".

Even a slow shuffle back and forth will keep you alive longer.

I'm playing a magicka dunmer DK, more DPS than tank - and with the group I play in IC I mostly alternate talons and fire breathing (I'm 25th level, don't have access to the mondo high level skills yet) with heavy attacks (to regen magicka) so that our stamina DK can lash/synergize off the flame damage and others can hit the synergy from the talons.

As long as I keep circling around the nasties and occasionally refreshing my green dragon's blood and obsidian sheild I mostly don't die. I do occasionally have to dodge-roll with of course instantly gives me the sparkly green feet of "no more stamina"; which is basically a cue to call out to the Templar for some more shards.

SkylarkAU · September 2015

Stack health regen and use orgnums scales set for 5k hp regen (works best on DKs with dragons blood and the robust racial), then stack armor and mitigation buffs so you have 50-60% damage mitigation. Get your max health up to about 25k in pve and only block big attacks, works like a charm and can tank any vet boss in the game without a problem. Also effective for pvp though you'll be focusing on crown control & debuffing enemies rather than dps (better for group play).

If you're having snare problems you can use rapid maneuvers, unstoppable ability or immovable pots, or just break free with all the extra stam you'll have from not perma blocking.

bigereard · September 2015

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

To play devils advocate here, the stamina regen nerf only prevents you from stamina regen while blocking. If you are not holding block your stam regen is the exact same as before. All the nerf did was force players to change their playstyle and adopt a more active approach to defense rather than simply "turtling up" and calling ones self a tank. You now have to block then release, block then release. You have to use other defensive skills, you now have to use health potions while leveling. Does it make the game harder, yes. But does it make the game more interesting now that you cannot just hold one button for defense, in my opinion yes. I think once people get more comfortable with some simple playstyle changes the nerf will be less an issue and many will be thankful because the game becomes more active now. Now when you meet a good tank, you know they are better than just a damage sponge, they are a survival expert. And to me that is an improvement over just holding block, and casting a taunt, then back to block. Just my opinion though.

Agree, but most people will disagree with you.

There's so many way to build blocking toons, other than just footman+histbark+stamina regen.
And there's also so many non-blocking build that as survive as 1.6 blocking build if not more.

Kupoking · September 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Well, tbh since patch came out, all the tanks I know are doing well with the stam nerf in all content.

Actually, 2 people on this thread already have claimed to be tanks and said they aren't enjoying the nerf, so you're statement is somewhat wrong. We now know of 2 tanks they do not like block nerf. Besides, it's not just tanks it affects. I'm levelling a stam nb - they don't really have anything in the way of defence other than blocking. Them few seconds during combat you're blocking and not receiving any stamina actually add up and make quite a difference. Like I said as well - I'm battle levelled. My stam regen is already super low, and gear has no affect. I sucked down a pot and it didn't even change my stats. It is a major hindrance

My statement isnt wrong. I means that anyone with good faith can learn th new tanking. Of course you could just be mad at the change and decide you dont want to adapt. Then I guess you wont be able to tank in update seven.

Oh and the whole 'i cant tank my own way anymore' arguement is redundent. Learn the basics then adapt.

If you cant understand all that then, yeah reroll a dps you will enjoy it more. Tanking is a niche now where good tanks arent lost in a crowd of 100 mediocre tank that can still run their grps through all content.

Alucardo · September 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

My statement isnt wrong. I means that anyone with good faith can learn th new tanking. Of course you could just be mad at the change and decide you dont want to adapt. Then I guess you wont be able to tank in update seven.

Oh and the whole 'i cant tank my own way anymore' arguement is redundent. Learn the basics then adapt.

If you cant understand all that then, yeah reroll a dps you will enjoy it more. Tanking is a niche now where good tanks arent lost in a crowd of 100 mediocre tank that can still run their grps through all content.

You talk a lot about tanking, but I never said I was a tank. Actually, I'm dps. Fights in Cyrodiil are much longer now with the damage reduction (which I have no problem with), but that means I can't rely on burst damage to kill targets quickly - I actually need to defend myself for prolonged periods of time. Being a nightblade dps I don't have all the fancy shields and wards tanks and mages have, so I need to rely on blocking. No longer regenerating any stamina at all whilst blocking puts me at a great disadvantage. I find myself trying to block less in order to not burn through my resources so quickly, but obviously that leaves me quite open. On the other hand if I block more, my stamina is depleted faster and I have to fall back shooting arrows like an idiot and can't heal myself with the nerfed Rally. So, my primary heal was nerfed, and my main line of defence was greatly nerfed. Battle levelling raises my stamina, but obviously also the costs of spells yet leaves my regen really low. There is also no way to raise my regen rates using enchantments or gear, so I'd have to choose the Serpent mundus stone, which would obviously significantly decrease my damage (It's Warrior at the moment). Can you not see a problem there?

I ran into an AD Templar near their keep yesterday - he just kept popping his shields after I hit him, so my combat log was full of purple text saying his shield absorbed X damage. I ran out of stamina after going through my burst cycle a few times. He ran out of magicka after spamming shields. We stood there for 30 seconds staring at each other while we regenerated then started again. He eventually got bored and ran inside the keep. The most uninspiring "battle" ever. Sadly many of the 1v1s on BWB turn out this way.

aialghannam_ESO · September 2015

I agree with the OP. I've been playing tank since launch. This update completely destroyed the tank in PvE.
Please ZOS, remove this meaningless nerf. And please remove it completely, don't just try appealing to both audiences by partially nerfing it. No! remove it completely.

aialghannam_ESO · September 2015

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

Just change to a -50% stamina regen while blocking and be done with it. Nerf, but don't ruin it.

No. Absolutely not. This does not fix the problem at all.

Nerf should be removed completely.

I don't care about PvP at all and don't play it.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Aedaryl · September 2015

Stamina was > all before, now, it's balanced, Perma blocker are always here, but now, they can dead, and in PvE it's not a problem, good tank stay good tank, and dodge roll is just smart, not spam it like a *** !

Personofsecrets · September 2015

actosh wrote: »

DDemon wrote: »

-edit
Might also be worth mentioning I have about 70 points in block cost reduction champ points, and am using 3x block cost reduction glyphs on jewelry.

Thats not good. To much diminishing returns for around 650-500stamcost per block.

I use 1blockglyph and 15%reduction from the cp and my block costs around 720-780 per hit.

This way i got 2 jewelry enchants free and more freedom in the cp system.

Check out @Personofsecrets math and spreadsheet to find a good way for u. Pretty insightfull.
I tank and i only get probs if i either do too much dps(stam spec) or the grp is *** and needs one month to kill trash.

Yea, players get punished severely for using block cost reduction above 50% (fortress+bracing).

Basically @DDemon , you are only getting half of the block cost that you should be getting after the 50% mark. 100 champion points only grants 12.5% more block cost mitigation (rather than 25%) and enchants only reduce the cost of blocking by around 100 (rather than around 200).

It is for that reason that I suggest ,to at least magic based DKs, just using spell damage enchants in PVP for increased killing potential and magic regeneration enchants in PVE for the ability to cast an earthen heart ability, such as stone fist, more often.

Personofsecrets · September 2015

We are in a sad state when imbalance has been caused which makes players able to cast biting jabs and upper cut more often than players have the stamina to block those abilities.

@ZOS_RichLambert , I used to be fine with those hard hitting abilities, but now I am not because you have imbalanced the game. People keep their regeneration when casting extremely hard hitting abilities at 5k weapon damage, but they don't keep their regen when they try to block those abilities. That is wrong and not fair to tanks.

wraith808 · September 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Well, tbh since patch came out, all the tanks I know are doing well with the stam nerf in all content.

Actually, 2 people on this thread already have claimed to be tanks and said they aren't enjoying the nerf, so you're statement is somewhat wrong.

Both of you are using non-representative pools. I'm on the middle of the line with it, and can see both points. It's harder to tank, but doable. So I'm not clamoring for them to remove it- just to re-evaluate it for tweaking. And that means exaction zip to the 'meta'.

It's easier if you don't have actual numbers, to just stick with your opinion, rather than saying everyone. And he said [i']all the tanks I know'[/i], which is sticking with what he knows, and you responded somewhat wrong... what? The tanks that he knows lied to him?

Personofsecrets · September 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Well, tbh since patch came out, all the tanks I know are doing well with the stam nerf in all content.

Actually, 2 people on this thread already have claimed to be tanks and said they aren't enjoying the nerf, so you're statement is somewhat wrong.

Both of you are using non-representative pools. I'm on the middle of the line with it, and can see both points. It's harder to tank, but doable. So I'm not clamoring for them to remove it- just to re-evaluate it for tweaking. And that means exaction zip to the 'meta'.

It's easier if you don't have actual numbers, to just stick with your opinion, rather than saying everyone. And he said [i']all the tanks I know'[/i], which is sticking with what he knows, and you responded somewhat wrong... what? The tanks that he knows lied to him?

Nothing should ever be balanced around what is 'doable.'

Personofsecrets · September 2015

OP, to answer your question, and to introduce some 'numbers' into the thread, it is going to take about 1200 champion points to be where I want to be again. That is only 914 champion points away!

symonator · September 2015

They should allow a bonus to tankers for sure, a set bonus or a passive for x amount of heavy.

wraith808 · September 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Well, tbh since patch came out, all the tanks I know are doing well with the stam nerf in all content.

Actually, 2 people on this thread already have claimed to be tanks and said they aren't enjoying the nerf, so you're statement is somewhat wrong.

Both of you are using non-representative pools. I'm on the middle of the line with it, and can see both points. It's harder to tank, but doable. So I'm not clamoring for them to remove it- just to re-evaluate it for tweaking. And that means exaction zip to the 'meta'.

It's easier if you don't have actual numbers, to just stick with your opinion, rather than saying everyone. And he said [i']all the tanks I know'[/i], which is sticking with what he knows, and you responded somewhat wrong... what? The tanks that he knows lied to him?

Nothing should ever be balanced around what is 'doable.'

Did I say that? If I did, can you point to when I said that?

DDemon · September 2015

newtinmpls wrote: »

DDemon wrote: »

currently all I am doing, taunt boss, stand still and pop skills/pots that give stam back and proc my engine guardian.

I hope you don't mean that literally. Standing still is like waving a red flag at the AI saying "please attack me, I'm an idiot".

Even a slow shuffle back and forth will keep you alive longer.

I'm playing a magicka dunmer DK, more DPS than tank - and with the group I play in IC I mostly alternate talons and fire breathing (I'm 25th level, don't have access to the mondo high level skills yet) with heavy attacks (to regen magicka) so that our stamina DK can lash/synergize off the flame damage and others can hit the synergy from the talons.

As long as I keep circling around the nasties and occasionally refreshing my green dragon's blood and obsidian sheild I mostly don't die. I do occasionally have to dodge-roll with of course instantly gives me the sparkly green feet of "no more stamina"; which is basically a cue to call out to the Templar for some more shards.

Just to clarify, I am talking about end game content like trails and the more difficult new dungeons, not random mobs in IC. I have no problems tanking anything, none at all, I am perfectly fine keeping my stam up and tanking the stuff I need to tank. And you are right, I don't stand still getting hit like an 'idiot', obviously that would increase the work load on healers. It is also very rare I request a shard from my healer, because if I had to, that would mean I would be forced to run with only templar healers.

That said, I built a tank, not a DPS machine, I do realize the diminishing returns, but over 7 hits, that's an extra hit I can block.

Wing · September 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

OP, to answer your question, and to introduce some 'numbers' into the thread, it is going to take about 1200 champion points to be where I want to be again. That is only 914 champion points away!

that's np, you can buy scrolls of xp in the crown store for just 1000 crowns.

everyone seems happy now that tanking is a "niche" and only a few good people can do it.

is that what its supposed to be?

Soleya · September 2015

Resource regen seems to be on a 2 second timer and anytime you block that timer appears to be reset. This means if you block, release and before 2 seconds passed block and release again, you will never regen stamina.

I tried this on a simple mob last night...attacks were coming in fast enough I never regenerated any stamina.

Stamina regen nerf doesn't only affect tanks, it affects stamina DPS a lot too. Can't block anything with my dps cause it'll use up stamina and I won't have any for actual attacks.

Also, I notice it seems really hard to find anyone to tank dungeons and pledges anymore. Either they are all in IC, or they gave up being tanks. In zone chat you'll see 3-4 groups looking for a tank at any one time.

If tanking before was just standing and holding up a shield, why were there people who were bad at it? (sarcasm)

DDemon · September 2015

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

Resource regen seems to be on a 2 second timer and anytime you block that timer appears to be reset. This means if you block, release and before 2 seconds passed block and release again, you will never regen stamina.

I tried this on a simple mob last night...attacks were coming in fast enough I never regenerated any stamina.

Stamina regen nerf doesn't only affect tanks, it affects stamina DPS a lot too. Can't block anything with my dps cause it'll use up stamina and I won't have any for actual attacks.

Also, I notice it seems really hard to find anyone to tank dungeons and pledges anymore. Either they are all in IC, or they gave up being tanks. In zone chat you'll see 3-4 groups looking for a tank at any one time.

If tanking before was just standing and holding up a shield, why were there people who were bad at it? (sarcasm)

Where before you had bad tanks, there aren't now, the bad tanks aren't able to adapt to the new tank style, so obviously you would end up with less tanks. Before, even if you had a bad tank, as long as he could keep up taunt most of the time, you would be alright.

Also in regards to the 2 second regen timer, it doesn't stop it, but it pauses it apparently.

It's all good people are trying to teach people how to play their tank, and with some changes in play style it is infact still relatively easy to tank, for most tanks (including me) this change just sucked the fun out of tanking.

Also, I feel the need to add this:

I can still tank well, I have in fact learned to 'adapt' quite well, and have no issues tanking anything at all. It just isn't fun anymore for me. This is not something that can be changed by making changes to my build, or how I play, I can't help that. I continue to play my tank because it is needed to do a lot of the end game group content.