Racial Passives are Racist?
-
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭Because it's also down to lore, a huge part of elder scrolls games, take nords, their passives give them bonuses to defence, to health and reduced frost damage, as they came from the mountains, and are generally huge men battle hardened and have great psychical strength.
Now take redguards, devout warriors that train immensely hard to perfect their sword skills, especially the sword singers of time gone past.
Now why would a nord, a race built like tanks, towering mountains of men that usually wield giant axes to smash their foes to pieces. Be better practitioners of magika than say, dunmers? A race that has spent generations using magika to increase their life spans, and it a huge part of their race.
Not all passives work out in lore, but most do, that's why imperials get health and stam bonuses, as they are trained soldiers that have perfected the art of combat.1 -
Nemeliom✭✭✭✭Go create your own game and do whatever you wish with the races.
God... Why don't you ask for realism then and wonder why female has the same physical damage as male. That's feminist..... (?)Baradur Morker - Level 50 Bosmer Nightblade
Le-Duck - Level 50 Dark Elf Dragonknight
Boom-Stormer - Level 50 High Elf Sorcerer
Nemeliom the Great - Level 50 Redguard Warden
Crazy Little Maggie - Level 50 High Elf Templar1 -
eNumbra✭✭✭✭✭Yes but you are saying that all nords laugh at the cold. What if my nord grew up raised by High Elves that ended up warming up to him and teaching him magic. By growing up in summer set he wouldn't be cold resistant and if he became more attuned to magic at young age wouldn't he be better than a nord picking it up at the age of 30+?
No, because that's not how it works. A Nord is born a Nord.2 -
corrosivechains✭✭✭✭✭I think the OP is racist."Could you post me a link to the official MMO rule book please." - clayandaudrey_ESO8 -
Anorak✭✭✭
You can't say "this isn't real life and they do not have science or those classifications in TES" while simultaneously trying to apply real life definitions of racism. Sorry, but you don't get to have it both ways. You've just completely invalidated every single post you've made in this thread.
That's not an accurate definition of race. Or rather, it's an incomplete definition of race. It goes family > genus > species > subspecies > race, although race really only applies to humans - in other species it would more commonly be referred to as breed.Part of the issue is that it's actually not very accurate to call the different races of TES "different races" as many of them are actually different species.
In fact, you could even argue that all of them are different species, as through various means (including magical) even those that could be considered different races of the same species (like all of the mer races) have diverged enough that they can't truly be considered the same species anymore. I mean look at the differences between *** sapiens and *** neanderthalensis. I'd say they're probably less divergent than bosmer and orsimer...
Edit: apparently the scientific classification of various hominids gets automatically censored by the forums. I'm talking about the 2 species commonly known as modern humans, and neanderthals, respectively.
Race- as a social construct is a group of people who share similar and distinct physical characteristics
definition again provided by google soooo yep ZoS is making people racist #confirmed
Still the fact that I'm trying to get at is that a khajiit can still be a skilled mage and a redguard can be really bulky and not just good with a sword.
If you accept that at a minimum some of the different "races" in TES are actually different species (and frankly, you have to accept that, because it's completely undeniable that argonians are a different species from khajiit are a different species from mer are a different species from men - the only ones that you could argue are part of the same species are the different mer, and the different men - but even they are definitely different species from each other), then it makes perfect sense that one species will be better than another at some things, because that's exactly what happens.
As an example, neanderthals were physically superior to humans in virtually every respect, with the exception that humans were better at vocalization and long distance running. So if they were 2 races you could play in ESO, neanderthals would probably get bonuses to health, and maybe weapon damage, while humans would probably get a reduction in stamina cost of sprinting, and maybe some magicka bonus (the fact that humans were physically better equipped for vocalization is likely to have allowed us to form languages more easily, which would lead to better development of abstract thought and higher brain functions, despite our smaller brains compared to neanderthals).
This isn't real life and they do not have science or those classifications in TES. Honestly they are still a race of people. Now in terms of being better at something due to sheer genetics I don't believe that is always the case as there are always genetic mutations. Perhaps a khajiit that is crazy good with spells or a high elf with the strength of 10 men? All I'm saying is even from the scientific stand not every person/race/species in TES would have the exact same bonuses.
Okay so if we do have scientific classifications it doesn't even matter just based on definition. Also they use the same words as us in most cases it is the best approximation for what it is. No one in test has ever said "Damn what a racist pig" to mean "Dang that girl be fiiiiiiine" lol0 -
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭corrosivechains wrote: »I think the OP is racist.
Probably true, only people that have either insecurities or are actually slightly racist themselves feel the need to constantly voice their opinion on race, anyone watch family guy here? Remind you of Brian the dog at all?
Back on topic, go play morrowind, plenty of racism in there, go read some of the lore.
1 -
Anorak✭✭✭Because it's also down to lore, a huge part of elder scrolls games, take nords, their passives give them bonuses to defence, to health and reduced frost damage, as they came from the mountains, and are generally huge men battle hardened and have great psychical strength.
Now take redguards, devout warriors that train immensely hard to perfect their sword skills, especially the sword singers of time gone past.
Now why would a nord, a race built like tanks, towering mountains of men that usually wield giant axes to smash their foes to pieces. Be better practitioners of magika than say, dunmers? A race that has spent generations using magika to increase their life spans, and it a huge part of their race.
Not all passives work out in lore, but most do, that's why imperials get health and stam bonuses, as they are trained soldiers that have perfected the art of combat.
Yes, but who is to say that a nord could not have been trained by a dunmer and have passives similar or the same to them. I mean once you throw lore into the mix it can really be anything.0 -
Anorak✭✭✭Yes but you are saying that all nords laugh at the cold. What if my nord grew up raised by High Elves that ended up warming up to him and teaching him magic. By growing up in summer set he wouldn't be cold resistant and if he became more attuned to magic at young age wouldn't he be better than a nord picking it up at the age of 30+?
No, because that's not how it works. A Nord is born a Nord.
Or a nord is born a nord his parents are enslaved and he is sold to a wizard at a young age who trained him in magic.0 -
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭No it can't, that's my point, it's not just something that's taught, a race that's spent thousands of years perfecting a set skill isn't going to pass that information on in a couple of years, kind of like how even though the moth priests trained the prophet in reading the scrolls, he still didn't posses the true skills and ended up blind.
Same as how a nord raised by aragonians isn't going to grow a tail and get resistance to poison now is he?1 -
SeptimusDova✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nords are trained by Nords. In the past they were trained by dragons. In the future maybe they will be advised by dragons.
Nords do not like magic.
OP do not rip apart the lore that took decades to write just to satisfy your petty desires.3 -
Colosso-monstro✭✭✭Part of the issue is that it's actually not very accurate to call the different races of TES "different races" as many of them are actually different species.
In fact, you could even argue that all of them are different species, as through various means (including magical) even those that could be considered different races of the same species (like all of the mer races) have diverged enough that they can't truly be considered the same species anymore. I mean look at the differences between *** sapiens and *** neanderthalensis. I'd say they're probably less divergent than bosmer and orsimer...
Edit: apparently the scientific classification of various hominids gets automatically censored by the forums. I'm talking about the 2 species commonly known as modern humans, and neanderthals, respectively.
They'd have to have different DNA to be a different species
0 -
Swindy✭✭✭
Tullius & I drive a Vampire Daedric Sword through your rebellious heart.GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »Stormcloak master race
, i should of rolled a Nord... i'm Imperial for the passive's but Nord at heart.
Although, if I'm honest, I think I aided Ulfric as many times as Tullius. About 25 each at last count...II Swindy II
Australian on Xbox NA (ex EU)0 -
Xendyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Okay so if we do have scientific classifications it doesn't even matter just based on definition. Also they use the same words as us in most cases it is the best approximation for what it is. No one in test has ever said "Damn what a racist pig" to mean "Dang that girl be fiiiiiiine" lol
What?
Am confused now.Lag is ruinin' my 'mershun!
A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance - Socrates
Member of the Old Guard, keepers of the game's history
PC/NA0 -
Junkogen✭✭✭✭✭Yes, racist and imbalanced. I've heard people justify Argonians' weak racials because they're a "slave" race.0 -
Casdha✭✭✭✭✭
✭
That's not an accurate definition of race. Or rather, it's an incomplete definition of race. It goes family > genus > species > subspecies > race, although race really only applies to humans - in other species it would more commonly be referred to as breed.Part of the issue is that it's actually not very accurate to call the different races of TES "different races" as many of them are actually different species.
In fact, you could even argue that all of them are different species, as through various means (including magical) even those that could be considered different races of the same species (like all of the mer races) have diverged enough that they can't truly be considered the same species anymore. I mean look at the differences between *** sapiens and *** neanderthalensis. I'd say they're probably less divergent than bosmer and orsimer...
Edit: apparently the scientific classification of various hominids gets automatically censored by the forums. I'm talking about the 2 species commonly known as modern humans, and neanderthals, respectively.
Race- as a social construct is a group of people who share similar and distinct physical characteristics
definition again provided by google soooo yep ZoS is making people racist #confirmed
Still the fact that I'm trying to get at is that a khajiit can still be a skilled mage and a redguard can be really bulky and not just good with a sword.
If you accept that at a minimum some of the different "races" in TES are actually different species (and frankly, you have to accept that, because it's completely undeniable that argonians are a different species from khajiit are a different species from mer are a different species from men - the only ones that you could argue are part of the same species are the different mer, and the different men - but even they are definitely different species from each other), then it makes perfect sense that one species will be better than another at some things, because that's exactly what happens.
As an example, neanderthals were physically superior to humans in virtually every respect, with the exception that humans were better at vocalization and long distance running. So if they were 2 races you could play in ESO, neanderthals would probably get bonuses to health, and maybe weapon damage, while humans would probably get a reduction in stamina cost of sprinting, and maybe some magicka bonus (the fact that humans were physically better equipped for vocalization is likely to have allowed us to form languages more easily, which would lead to better development of abstract thought and higher brain functions, despite our smaller brains compared to neanderthals).
It's funny my last post was going to say almost the exact same thing until I deleted it because I thought no one would follow what I was trying to say. You did a better job than I would have done though,,,, KudosProud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%0 -
Sithisvoid✭✭✭✭✭No it can't, that's my point, it's not just something that's taught, a race that's spent thousands of years perfecting a set skill isn't going to pass that information on in a couple of years, kind of like how even though the moth priests trained the prophet in reading the scrolls, he still didn't posses the true skills and ended up blind.
Same as how a nord raised by aragonians isn't going to grow a tail and get resistance to poison now is he?
Moth Priests go blind all the time from reading the scrolls....0 -
Psychobunni✭✭✭✭✭
✭corrosivechains wrote: »I think the OP is racist.
Actually, if a player doesn't want to play the race with the passives they want and only want to play a particular race...does that make said player *more* racist than the game? good point
If options weren't necessary, and everyone played the same way, no one would use addons. Fix the UI!2 -
SilverFang47xSoul ShrivenI do not believe that this is a matter of racism, but in fact a celebration of racial and cultural propensities. Nords focus more on combat and strength because it is important to their culture. While elven culture is more focused on magic. Even though we do see racism in the lore of the game, it only effects the story line. As a member of the Ebonheart Pact, I can tell you that I have completed a few quests that are focused on bringing the races of our Pact together. Through cooperation and great effort, the races have used their propensities to strengthen the Pact. Celebrate the differences and use them to your advantage.All hail the Stormcloaks! The true sons and daughters of Skyrim!!
PS4 - North America - Ebonheart Pact - Nord - Dragon Knight - SilverFang47x0 -
Casdha✭✭✭✭✭
✭OK another monkey wrench,
IMHO a definite racial passive would be something like Night eye on a Kajit or breathing underwater like an Argonian.
Things that are not necessarily, but could be, racial passives are things like Health, Stamina, Magicka, or resistance to cold and/or heat. It could be a physical characteristic (like dragon scales) that gave an extra ability or it could be the environment as well (like being raised in the arctic vs the desert or Education vs Labor)
Proud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%0 -
BabeestorGor✭✭✭✭Yes but you are saying that all nords laugh at the cold. What if my nord grew up raised by High Elves that ended up warming up to him and teaching him magic. By growing up in summer set he wouldn't be cold resistant and if he became more attuned to magic at young age wouldn't he be better than a nord picking it up at the age of 30+?
No, because that's not how it works. A Nord is born a Nord.
Or a nord is born a nord his parents are enslaved and he is sold to a wizard at a young age who trained him in magic.
In which case hes a Nord with the sorcerer class, quite possible in ESO.
Races in TES aren't social constructs, they aren't even different species because of evolution. Its a world where gods and Daedra have changed the form of races in the past.
Some differences between TES races could be cultural - Redguard skill with swords or orc skill at smithing - but others such as Breton resistance to magic are innate and not learned.Babeester Gor is the Axe Goddess, the Implacable Anger, the Avenging Daughter and the Earth Guardian.
Vriddi gra-Yildnarz, Dragonknight and Smith
Myrvanwe, Sorcerer and Enchanter
Tsajirra, Nightblade and Clothier
Vilvyni Indarys, Dragonknight and Woodworker
Arielle Alouette, Templar and Provisioner
Fishes in Troubled Waters, Nightblade and Alchemist
Shanika Some Long Title I'd Change If I Could, Templar and Aspirant Jeweller
Pippi Longhorn, Nightblade, Ne'er-do-well, and "Tribute" character
EU PC.2 -
Aneima✭✭✭What a stupid waste of Internet space.
Want different racial passives? Then go level up a few alts like most people have been doing since mmorpgs first came out.1 -
Casdha✭✭✭✭✭
✭SeptimusDova wrote: »Nords are trained by Nords. In the past they were trained by dragons. In the future maybe they will be advised by dragons.
Nords do not like magic.
OP do not rip apart the lore that took decades to write just to satisfy your petty desires.
Don't confuse this with TES V - Skyrim. Nords don't like magic in the 4th era but in the 2nd era not so sure about that. Why was Winterhold (college) built in Skyrim? (The city) Winterhold should be there now, since it is the 2nd Era. Also Shalidor was a Nord, look up his history.
Edit: I should note the college was built approximately 700 years before TES V. I meant the City of Winter hold should be there.Edited by Casdha on September 13, 2015 12:19AMProud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%0 -
Kuroinu✭✭✭✭✭Well I started off by googling the definition of racism and here it is:
Racism- the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
So the fact that every single Redguard in the game is a competent stamina user, but is considered a lightweight to a High Elf when it comes to magic and vice versa. In the end ZoS has made everyone a racist because everyone knows now that certain races are weaker than others simply because the way they look.
Now I know that is all kind of a "This guy is just trolling" kind of argument, but it brings up the fact that the defense that certain races should be good at certain things doesn't hold up. The fact is we should be able to choose our racial passives as we create our characters and respec them at a shrine. From many different perspectives this is good as a roleplayer may be playing a shadow scale so they take Wood Elf passives or a competitive player can be a Khajiit but with high elf passives so that they are not limited to having their character look a certain way.
All I'm asking is that ZoS allows indviduals to choose everything about the character from look to stats.
Racism is not the same as preference.
For example, I prefer the elf races. This does not mean I hate the other races, it is just my preference. The same can be said in real life, I could say "I prefer Asians" this does not mean I hate those that are not Asian.
Your view on Racism is too black and white(no pun intended) and ultimately wrong. Racism stems from hate, and I would never hate another player because they choose to play as a race in a way that doesn't fully utilize their passive abilities.
The real issue you have is DPS & Min/Maxing; some people need to know and have to min/max so hard that they pick this and that to make the combination that they feel is best. And again this is a preference. So your real problem isn't that you think this is racist, it's that you have a misconception that this is racist and that you really just want to be able to make the character you want without having to choose a race you don't like the stats of.
And of course this has got blown way out of proportion due to your lack of understanding.0 -
corrosivechains✭✭✭✭✭Damned N'Wahs
"Could you post me a link to the official MMO rule book please." - clayandaudrey_ESO1 -
AtmaDarkwolf✭✭✭any time now, some poor, innocent redguard, who was minding his own business breaking into peoples houses and taking their things, and looking to gank a lone breton, will get ganked by two nord city guards, and it'll explode into a world wide media mess, with all those 'racist nords' and 'violent guards' taking it out on poor, innocent, peaceful redguards. Then later on during this crisis, a redguard city guard will have to take down a innocent, peaceful redguard night blade who was just minding his own business murdering innocent civilians (you know, the civilized kind of murder....) and it'll become a 'redguard on redguard violence' issue and somehow THAT will also be a racist issue to use against the nords.
Yup. Can see it happening.
BTW Racism DOES NOT stem from hate. it stems from differences and understanding(or lack of) those differences. It gets 'twisted' and used by hate (Or rather the hateful twist it) and becomes a tool (or weapon) to use for the one to feel hes better than another. - EVERYONE is racist, its natural, but the point is, where it becomes what we see in 'media' as 'racism', is where it goes too far, where somebody decides that 'differences' is a bad thing, and where one decides to attribute traits as negative or positive.
I think what people use as the term 'racism' is actually meant to mean 'hateful racism' (IE the ***'s are an example of a hateful racist group)Edited by AtmaDarkwolf on September 13, 2015 1:03AM2 -
Please don't make up an issue where there is none it is a video game after all. I have no problem with there being racial specific passives because it makes each race more unique also there's several species as well not just races.0 -
Blackhorne✭✭✭✭The thing is, races in Tamriel are not the same as races on Earth.
Here we (rather arbitrarily and somewhat artificially) separate humanity into races based on apparent physical characteristics, demographics, and genealogy.
In Tamriel, the races are more like separate species with limited interbreeding capabilities. If they had used the term species instead of race, nobody would be making these "is ESO racist" posts because the analogue would be clear.
But the Elder Scrolls series originated in a different time, when video games and fantasy RPGs in general were not under much scrutiny and there wasn't this need for precision in terminology.
We actually do have a similar term here when we refer to our species as "the human race." So next time you hear the term "race" in pretty much any fantasy RPG, interpret as you would "human race" and it will make much more sense, and perhaps seem a little less offensive.0 -
Yes it racist because races are real. Please tell me that what a Bosmer has in common with an Argonian and an Argonian with a Nord?Edited by Corellon Thromorin on September 13, 2015 1:37AM0
