Racial Passives are Racist?

TheShadowScout

All fantasy races are racist... it goes waaay back to medievel mythology, where you had mythical races like elves or trolls that were way better then humans at some things, to allow for a story where the merely human bard manages to trick them, or a story where the vailaint human knight manages to beat them...

Tolkien took that and ran with in in LotR, which is basically the books that paid the groundwork for all fantasy stories...

And everyone after contiuned the trend. Sometimes the differences are small things that have little (game) effect, like longer lifespan... sometimes its balanced by drawbacks, like "+2 agility, -2 constitution", sometimes they just gave the humans advantages of their own to even the scales.

In the end, "racism" is not about looking at possible differences in races, but in feeling one races presumed advantages make it "superior" to all others in every regard. Well, or claiming one race is notably "inferior" in every regard (and thus less then sentient, and thus legally enslavable, be it "barbarians" in the roman empire, or "africans" in the colonial times)

So, racial passives by themselves are not racist. How you treat people... that may be...

Corellon Thromorin

SeptimusDova wrote: »

Nords are trained by Nords. In the past they were trained by dragons. In the future maybe they will be advised by dragons.

Nords do not like magic.

OP do not rip apart the lore that took decades to write just to satisfy your petty desires.

That can be applied to a lot of users from this forum.

UrQuan

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

SeptimusDova wrote: »

Nords are trained by Nords. In the past they were trained by dragons. In the future maybe they will be advised by dragons.

Nords do not like magic.

OP do not rip apart the lore that took decades to write just to satisfy your petty desires.

That can be applied to a lot of users from this forum.

Which part? Were a lot of forum users trained by Nords, or were a lot of forum users trained by dragons?

Corellon Thromorin

UrQuan wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

SeptimusDova wrote: »

Nords are trained by Nords. In the past they were trained by dragons. In the future maybe they will be advised by dragons.

Nords do not like magic.

OP do not rip apart the lore that took decades to write just to satisfy your petty desires.

That can be applied to a lot of users from this forum.

Which part? Were a lot of forum users trained by Nords, or were a lot of forum users trained by dragons?

No. A lot of users like you want to trash the lore for gameplay and other reasons.

Gidorick

I want MORE racism in ESO. I want to get a better deal from a Khajiit merchant if I am also a Khajiit. Maybe even have that merchant offer a Khajiit different items that he would NEVER offer an Breton or a Bosmer. (A bit of Skooma for this one, no? ~ Dar-Ja'Taba)

Maybe have certain merchants not want to sell to certain races, or simply have them jack up the prices.

Maybe an Argonian merchant might snub a Dunmer completely because of the whole slavery thing.

ZOS should ADD layers, not strip them away!!!

UrQuan

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

SeptimusDova wrote: »

Nords are trained by Nords. In the past they were trained by dragons. In the future maybe they will be advised by dragons.

Nords do not like magic.

OP do not rip apart the lore that took decades to write just to satisfy your petty desires.

That can be applied to a lot of users from this forum.

Which part? Were a lot of forum users trained by Nords, or were a lot of forum users trained by dragons?

No. A lot of users like you want to trash the lore for gameplay and other reasons.

lol, I take it you're unfamiliar with my posting history. I'm a huge lore nerd and I don't care at all about min-maxing. I vastly prefer game mechanics to take a backseat to lore and story. As an example, racial passives are literally the last thing on my mind when I create a character.

Uncle_Voodoo

I've come to the conclusion that this thread is racist... I will be having none of this, good day sir.

Mivryna

I find it ironic that people call racism for the mere acknowledgement of differences, to the point of outright denial that differences can exist; the point is to be accepting of people's differences, even when they're significant.

Reznique

Erm because races do matter?

Call it breeds instead of you will, but a cat is different from an elf.

I very much doubt that ZOS made a game with a racist hint to it... Also to add, racial passives were implemented by the original TES developers- Bethesda

This post is just so ridiculously absurd, *Facepalm*

SahrotRein

I take it you haven't played Skyrim.

Too bad we no longer have LOL button.

dodgehopper_ESO

The Champion system had the potential to offset the racial distinctions you were concerned with. This is why I wish they had not gotten rid of soft caps. By having soft caps, you could have made your Khajiit mage to be on par (or at least really close) to an Altmer. You could have had an Altmer warrior that hit nearly as hard as an orc or nearly as fast. It would have been a matter of pushing up against the soft caps, but the system isn't built for that anymore. One thing I noticed about all characters in previous TES games I've played. It really didn't matter what race you played, when you got to the end you were a superhero. You were Beowulf, Hercules, Achilles, etc. Those piddly little racial differences were nice but it was easy to fill in the gaps of your weaknesses.

Selique

ZoS doesn't need to change the racial passive system to let people pick. They just need to buff Argonian Racials.

I like keeping racials in line with Lore.

Anorak

zornyan wrote: »

No it can't, that's my point, it's not just something that's taught, a race that's spent thousands of years perfecting a set skill isn't going to pass that information on in a couple of years, kind of like how even though the moth priests trained the prophet in reading the scrolls, he still didn't posses the true skills and ended up blind.

Same as how a nord raised by aragonians isn't going to grow a tail and get resistance to poison now is he?

No but you can't tell me that a nord is physically unable to be attuned to magic and use it with the same strength as another race.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

All fantasy races are racist... it goes waaay back to medievel mythology, where you had mythical races like elves or trolls that were way better then humans at some things, to allow for a story where the merely human bard manages to trick them, or a story where the vailaint human knight manages to beat them...

Tolkien took that and ran with in in LotR, which is basically the books that paid the groundwork for all fantasy stories...

And everyone after contiuned the trend. Sometimes the differences are small things that have little (game) effect, like longer lifespan... sometimes its balanced by drawbacks, like "+2 agility, -2 constitution", sometimes they just gave the humans advantages of their own to even the scales.

In the end, "racism" is not about looking at possible differences in races, but in feeling one races presumed advantages make it "superior" to all others in every regard. Well, or claiming one race is notably "inferior" in every regard (and thus less then sentient, and thus legally enslavable, be it "barbarians" in the roman empire, or "africans" in the colonial times)

So, racial passives by themselves are not racist. How you treat people... that may be...

Racial passives are racist because you are projecting an ideal onto every last one of a culture saying that they all remain exactly the same with 0 variation. It is like saying that an argionan has to be a great swimmer or a redguard a master swordsman when they may not be.

Cadbury

UrQuan wrote: »

You can't say "this isn't real life and they do not have science or those classifications in TES" while simultaneously trying to apply real life definitions of racism. Sorry, but you don't get to have it both ways. You've just completely invalidated every single post you've made in this thread.

I'm surprised I've yet to see a suggestion asking about transgendered and transracial characters being added to the game.

Anorak

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The Champion system had the potential to offset the racial distinctions you were concerned with. This is why I wish they had not gotten rid of soft caps. By having soft caps, you could have made your Khajiit mage to be on par (or at least really close) to an Altmer. You could have had an Altmer warrior that hit nearly as hard as an orc or nearly as fast. It would have been a matter of pushing up against the soft caps, but the system isn't built for that anymore. One thing I noticed about all characters in previous TES games I've played. It really didn't matter what race you played, when you got to the end you were a superhero. You were Beowulf, Hercules, Achilles, etc. Those piddly little racial differences were nice but it was easy to fill in the gaps of your weaknesses.

See here is the problem with your theory... You say "you can be on par or really close to an Altmer" expect they get the exact same CP you have and they will push out further than you ever could. Also that 10% increased magica passive will only ever be matched if you have 100 people following you blowing warhorns.

Anorak

Runaan wrote: »

I take it you haven't played Skyrim.

Too bad we no longer have LOL button.

No I have played skyrim, but that game wasn't meant to be hard it was meant to fill a power fantasy.

TheShadowScout

Anorak wrote: »

Racial passives are racist because you are projecting an ideal onto every last one of a culture saying that they all remain exactly the same with 0 variation. It is like saying that an argionan has to be a great swimmer or a redguard a master swordsman when they may not be.

You mean... like saying crocodiles -have- to be good swimmers, or cheetahs -have- to be fast, or dogs -have- to have a good sense of smell?
Oh, noes, the horror!
How dare those different races be different! How dare they have webbed toes that help with swimming!
How dare they have different senses, different body structure, or any of that!
Heck, how dare people grow to different heights! That's size-ist!
Bring on the clones, so everyone is the same!
Then wipe out everyone who is different!
That will finally cure all racism!
...
Funny, how the ones against racism can end up doing exactly what the racists are likely to do, huh?
...
Sarcasm aside, think about it, different people have different strengths and weaknesses, in case of humans, simply by adapting to their surroundings. Doesn't make any flavor of human better, just a bit different. So what if some have darker skin that's a bit better under burning equatorial sun, and others pale skin due to adapting to other, colder, climates? Beneath it they have the same red blood.

That also doesn't mean there can't a lot of variation...

So, maybe the redguards had a few centuries of selective breeding for brawn over brain with all the "ra garda warrior wave culture"... doesn't mean everyone of them is a master swordsman, you could go ahead and roll up a redguard magica sorceror just to prove it. Sure, they may not be as effective at it then, say, those darn magical elves, but... its entirely possible.

So, maybe the argonians do have webbed toes that help with swimming, or perhaps even rudimentary gills that allow them to stay underwater indefinitely or at least far longer then any other race without those lizard-amphibean bits? Yeah, it gives them an advantage in that regard, and if they grow up in or around water, it seems pretty likely they'd learn how to moive in it well enough. So? (though I have to admit, I -would- like to see an "athletics" skill line that allowed some swimming training for other races... then there could be more varietee in swimming... not like that's likely until and unless they make a DLC where swimming is a much bigger deal then it is right now)

My point is - its not racist to have the differences. Its racist to assign some value to them, and to judge some people to be of greater value due to some quirk in their differences.

Tessie

Anorak wrote: »

Tessie wrote: »

This sounds like a request for a feature change being justified by disguising it as real-world social issue. Racism in the real world in an issue that deserves attention, but in ESO it obviously doesn't deserve the same amount of attention.

In ESO/TES, many of these races could almost be considered different species. In the real world an amphibian will swim faster than a feline. And a feline may have faster reflexes that a human. To suggest that these biological differences shouldn't be allowed to be used as game mechanics because they may remind people of a real world social injustice doesn't sound like a valid justification for the change.

An Elf is not a Khajiit which is not a human which is not an Argonian which is not an Orc. If you don't like the racial passives game mechanic, just come right out and say it, rather than call it racism.

It is racism and I have posted the definitions. If you account for full science it is possible for genetic mutations to cause a khajiit to be good with spells or an argonian to be good at swordplay or stealth. Also you could always throw in the magic factor to say that anything is possible in the TES universe so why can't a single khajiit be as good as a high elf at casting spells.

Also they can use the mechanic I honestly don't care the only thing I care about is the fact that you should be able to play anyway you want without being hindered by the fact that you want a character to look a certain way.

You posted a definition of racism that applies to real life humans. So, are you saying it would be racist of me to say that "fish are naturally better swimmers than humans." All I was suggesting is that you take your racism argument out of the discussion.

Are you offended that there are game mechanics based upon race? Or are you just wanting a change to the mechanics because they don't provide you with the flexibility to play the way you want to play.

Mivryna

Anorak wrote: »

No but you can't tell me that a nord is physically unable to be attuned to magic and use it with the same strength as another race.

Racial passives are racist because you are projecting an ideal onto every last one of a culture saying that they all remain exactly the same with 0 variation. It is like saying that an argionan has to be a great swimmer or a redguard a master swordsman when they may not be.

Actually in the Elder Scrolls universe, Nords are indeed naturally less attuned to magic than Elves. It's an essential part of lore and how the universe works. And I think it's perfectly legitimate to say that a race of beings with webbed digits and the ability to breathe underwater is probably going to be better at swimming. And cats are going to be agile.

The racial passives represent averages. Your character as an individual can be developed in other ways.

UrQuan

Tessie wrote: »

Anorak wrote: »

Tessie wrote: »

This sounds like a request for a feature change being justified by disguising it as real-world social issue. Racism in the real world in an issue that deserves attention, but in ESO it obviously doesn't deserve the same amount of attention.

In ESO/TES, many of these races could almost be considered different species. In the real world an amphibian will swim faster than a feline. And a feline may have faster reflexes that a human. To suggest that these biological differences shouldn't be allowed to be used as game mechanics because they may remind people of a real world social injustice doesn't sound like a valid justification for the change.

An Elf is not a Khajiit which is not a human which is not an Argonian which is not an Orc. If you don't like the racial passives game mechanic, just come right out and say it, rather than call it racism.

It is racism and I have posted the definitions. If you account for full science it is possible for genetic mutations to cause a khajiit to be good with spells or an argonian to be good at swordplay or stealth. Also you could always throw in the magic factor to say that anything is possible in the TES universe so why can't a single khajiit be as good as a high elf at casting spells.

Also they can use the mechanic I honestly don't care the only thing I care about is the fact that you should be able to play anyway you want without being hindered by the fact that you want a character to look a certain way.

You posted a definition of racism that applies to real life humans. So, are you saying it would be racist of me to say that "fish are naturally better swimmers than humans."

Of course that's racist! Didn't you see? He posted a definition and everything!

Tessie

UrQuan wrote: »

Tessie wrote: »

Anorak wrote: »

Tessie wrote: »

This sounds like a request for a feature change being justified by disguising it as real-world social issue. Racism in the real world in an issue that deserves attention, but in ESO it obviously doesn't deserve the same amount of attention.

In ESO/TES, many of these races could almost be considered different species. In the real world an amphibian will swim faster than a feline. And a feline may have faster reflexes that a human. To suggest that these biological differences shouldn't be allowed to be used as game mechanics because they may remind people of a real world social injustice doesn't sound like a valid justification for the change.

An Elf is not a Khajiit which is not a human which is not an Argonian which is not an Orc. If you don't like the racial passives game mechanic, just come right out and say it, rather than call it racism.

It is racism and I have posted the definitions. If you account for full science it is possible for genetic mutations to cause a khajiit to be good with spells or an argonian to be good at swordplay or stealth. Also you could always throw in the magic factor to say that anything is possible in the TES universe so why can't a single khajiit be as good as a high elf at casting spells.

Also they can use the mechanic I honestly don't care the only thing I care about is the fact that you should be able to play anyway you want without being hindered by the fact that you want a character to look a certain way.

You posted a definition of racism that applies to real life humans. So, are you saying it would be racist of me to say that "fish are naturally better swimmers than humans."

Of course that's racist! Didn't you see? He posted a definition and everything!

@UrQuan Well, if the OP says so, then it must be. /AFK rethinking my life.

Sithisvoid

Argonians are offensive to our reptilian shapeshifter overlords

Faulgor

Anorak wrote: »

Well I started off by googling the definition of racism and here it is:

Racism- the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

So the fact that every single Redguard in the game is a competent stamina user, but is considered a lightweight to a High Elf when it comes to magic and vice versa. In the end ZoS has made everyone a racist because everyone knows now that certain races are weaker than others simply because the way they look.

Now I know that is all kind of a "This guy is just trolling" kind of argument, but it brings up the fact that the defense that certain races should be good at certain things doesn't hold up. The fact is we should be able to choose our racial passives as we create our characters and respec them at a shrine. From many different perspectives this is good as a roleplayer may be playing a shadow scale so they take Wood Elf passives or a competitive player can be a Khajiit but with high elf passives so that they are not limited to having their character look a certain way.

All I'm asking is that ZoS allows indviduals to choose everything about the character from look to stats.

Okay, look.

TES races are not like real world "races", most notably in the fact that they are pretty well defined and very real. They do not stem from some kind of biological evolution based on different environments, they often have completely different heritages. The Argonians were created by the Hist from normal swamp lizards, the Bosmer got their shape from the Green, and the Orcs did not even exist until the corruption of Trinimac. TES races are often much more mythological than biological, and their specific attunement to the Mundus is absolutely essential to their whole being.
To compare them to real world races is just wrong, and if there was a better word I would advocate to use it, but there isn't.

Regarding the manifestion of these racial differences in the game, i.e. their passives - they have changed throughout the games, and there's a reason for this. Racial passives are, to a degree, based on inherent racial differences - for example the Altmer put great emphasis on their biological heritage and might even go so far as to breed for desired traits. Likewise, Argonians are literally designed by the Hist to be able to breathe under water.
However, an equally important aspect of racial passives is that of culture. What a race regards as important, what shapes their beliefs (which, in turn, might come to change themselves - see above), which collective experience they went through. For example, there is no inherent biological trait that grants Dunmer the ability to summon Ancestral Spirits. This is a skill acquired through culture, but it is represented as a racial passives. Likewise, the Redguard's affinity for melee combat is based on their culture of conquest and hardship.
Of course, this means a well-trained Altmer can be just as competent a fighter as any Redguard, and this was certainly possible in single player TES games. That this is not possible in ESO is the fault of the current game mechanics and not racial differences themselves.

Maybe this will help you understand why your suggestion to choose racial passives is absolutely ridiculous. First, it doesn't make sense in terms of gameplay, because at that point, they aren't racial passives anymore, are they - they are just passives, and we have more than enough of those in the game. Second, it obviously doesn't make sense from a lore perspective. A shadow scale by very definition cannot be anything else than an Argonian, and no amount of wishful thinking will make a Khajiit be able to breathe under water without magic like an Argonian.
The only aspects that could be negotiable are those based on culture, but that would require a detailed discussion. If I had a say, I would make racial passives entirely around non-combat bonuses. Combat-bonuses were fine in a single player setting, but in ESO's competetive environment, they cause more grief than benefit.


... And boy, am I relieved that Bethesda dropped attribute differences based on sex after Morrowind. What a *** that would cause nowadays.

BlackEar

What is the term again?

Where a person tries to start an argument although there is no argument to be had?

Stranglehands

i can't be bothered to find it now but michael kirkbride went on a long rant somewhere where he said that racial passives in elder scrolls are all due to cultural upbringing- what you were taught to value as a kid. Redguards learn swordfighting from when they can first pick up a sword, every orc woman is expected to be able to forge a shield in her sleep, that sort of thing.

this provides a sneaky opening for someone to have the passives of a different race if they were raised by them, like the dunmer orphan brand-shei from skyrim

notimetocare

Anorak wrote: »

Well I started off by googling the definition of racism and here it is:

Racism- the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

So the fact that every single Redguard in the game is a competent stamina user, but is considered a lightweight to a High Elf when it comes to magic and vice versa. In the end ZoS has made everyone a racist because everyone knows now that certain races are weaker than others simply because the way they look.

Now I know that is all kind of a "This guy is just trolling" kind of argument, but it brings up the fact that the defense that certain races should be good at certain things doesn't hold up. The fact is we should be able to choose our racial passives as we create our characters and respec them at a shrine. From many different perspectives this is good as a roleplayer may be playing a shadow scale so they take Wood Elf passives or a competitive player can be a Khajiit but with high elf passives so that they are not limited to having their character look a certain way.

All I'm asking is that ZoS allows indviduals to choose everything about the character from look to stats.

Racism is specifically about the distinction making X race inferior or superior. It is proven that 'races' have some physical differences. Do not believe that? Go ahead and look at the professional/Olympic level athletes. You will find many have racial dominance in different categories.

dodgehopper_ESO

Anorak wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The Champion system had the potential to offset the racial distinctions you were concerned with. This is why I wish they had not gotten rid of soft caps. By having soft caps, you could have made your Khajiit mage to be on par (or at least really close) to an Altmer. You could have had an Altmer warrior that hit nearly as hard as an orc or nearly as fast. It would have been a matter of pushing up against the soft caps, but the system isn't built for that anymore. One thing I noticed about all characters in previous TES games I've played. It really didn't matter what race you played, when you got to the end you were a superhero. You were Beowulf, Hercules, Achilles, etc. Those piddly little racial differences were nice but it was easy to fill in the gaps of your weaknesses.

See here is the problem with your theory... You say "you can be on par or really close to an Altmer" expect they get the exact same CP you have and they will push out further than you ever could. Also that 10% increased magica passive will only ever be matched if you have 100 people following you blowing warhorns.

You don't understand the concept of limits from mathematics do you. The idea of soft caps is to allow for players to gain increased nonlinear difficulty in approaching the hard cap or 'limit' of an attribute. Say the limit on damage reduction in a game is 85%. What this means is that getting to 70% could be relatively easy to obtain. Getting to 80% could be significantly harder and require a deep investment, and it might be foolish to go for 84.25% because you might do better in putting more points elsewhere. This is the point of the limit in an MMO or videogame. In some respects the Champion System works a little like this, and if they had found a way to push limits on things like spell resistance or elemental resistance for example, it would have been possible as a 'war mage' to train yourself to be as resistant as a Dunmer to fire, or at least nearly so. The big difference is the Dunmer would then have points in other areas, and you would be offset by this fact by having your own racial passives. What this would mean is that while Dunmer could peak out fire resistance more rapidly than other races, it wouldn't be impossible for another race to catch up to them. This is the essential idea of 'soft caps' in most games. Hitting the soft cap means that it will get progressively harder to achieve the hard cap, making character progression more exponential or logarithmic instead of linear.

newtinmpls

Anorak wrote: »

Hey all I'm saying is your damage numbers should not be based on weather or not you have a tail or black skin.

Its not.

It's based on the relative comparative reflexes, the relative comparative inherent apitude for magic ... and a lot more on what skills, equipment and so on you develop.

dodgehopper_ESO

Stranglehands wrote: »

i can't be bothered to find it now but michael kirkbride went on a long rant somewhere where he said that racial passives in elder scrolls are all due to cultural upbringing- what you were taught to value as a kid. Redguards learn swordfighting from when they can first pick up a sword, every orc woman is expected to be able to forge a shield in her sleep, that sort of thing.

this provides a sneaky opening for someone to have the passives of a different race if they were raised by them, like the dunmer orphan brand-shei from skyrim

I don't think Brand-Shei could breathe underwater like an argonian, and I doubt he had their poison and disease resistance as well.

AngryNord

The ONE thing ESO needs even less than FoTM, is Political Correctness.