Racial Passives are Racist?

Anorak · September 2015

Well I started off by googling the definition of racism and here it is:

Racism- the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

So the fact that every single Redguard in the game is a competent stamina user, but is considered a lightweight to a High Elf when it comes to magic and vice versa. In the end ZoS has made everyone a racist because everyone knows now that certain races are weaker than others simply because the way they look.

Now I know that is all kind of a "This guy is just trolling" kind of argument, but it brings up the fact that the defense that certain races should be good at certain things doesn't hold up. The fact is we should be able to choose our racial passives as we create our characters and respec them at a shrine. From many different perspectives this is good as a roleplayer may be playing a shadow scale so they take Wood Elf passives or a competitive player can be a Khajiit but with high elf passives so that they are not limited to having their character look a certain way.

All I'm asking is that ZoS allows indviduals to choose everything about the character from look to stats.

KhajiitiLizard · September 2015

Racism is a TES staple, get used to it...

13igTyme · September 2015

Racism has been in every main story in nearly all ESO games. That's why some people hate other races. Every race has been races or prejudice against another at some point in time.

Psychobunni · September 2015

I don't care if it is "racist". It requires you to make decisions. It provides distinction. *I* prefer it this way

Anorak · September 2015

Psychobunni wrote: »

I don't care if it is "racist". It requires you to make decisions. It provides distinction. *I* prefer it this way

Honestly wouldn't it be more distinct if people didnt know what you were good at based on what the color of your characters skin was?

Anorak · September 2015

KhajiitiLizard wrote: »

Racism is a TES staple, get used to it...

Its a tes staple, but it doesn't have any logical grounds just religious.

GreenSoup2HoT · September 2015

Stormcloak master race

, i should of rolled a Nord... i'm Imperial for the passive's but Nord at heart.

Psychobunni · September 2015

Anorak wrote: »

Psychobunni wrote: »

I don't care if it is "racist". It requires you to make decisions. It provides distinction. *I* prefer it this way

Honestly wouldn't it be more distinct if people didnt know what you were good at based on what the color of your characters skin was?

Or they would just see my bow and know, or my staff and know, or my robe and know...lets all just play the black shadows on the screen while loading and then it would be a surprise.

UrQuan · September 2015

Part of the issue is that it's actually not very accurate to call the different races of TES "different races" as many of them are actually different species.

In fact, you could even argue that all of them are different species, as through various means (including magical) even those that could be considered different races of the same species (like all of the mer races) have diverged enough that they can't truly be considered the same species anymore. I mean look at the differences between *** sapiens and *** neanderthalensis. I'd say they're probably less divergent than bosmer and orsimer...

Edit: apparently the scientific classification of various hominids gets automatically censored by the forums. I'm talking about the 2 species commonly known as modern humans, and neanderthals, respectively.

Tandor · September 2015

No thanks, there are enough games with FOTM templates that people have to adopt if they want to get into a group, raid or guild. This game doesn't need to be added to the list.

Casdha · September 2015

I get what you are trying to accomplish, I made a Similar Suggestion just the other day. But I don't agree with the argument you use to accomplish it.

Anorak · September 2015

Psychobunni wrote: »

Anorak wrote: »

Psychobunni wrote: »

I don't care if it is "racist". It requires you to make decisions. It provides distinction. *I* prefer it this way

Honestly wouldn't it be more distinct if people didnt know what you were good at based on what the color of your characters skin was?

Or they would just see my bow and know, or my staff and know, or my robe and know...lets all just play the black shadows on the screen while loading and then it would be a surprise.

Hey all I'm saying is your damage numbers should not be based on weather or not you have a tail or black skin.

Anorak · September 2015

Casdha wrote: »

I get what you are trying to accomplish, I made a Similar Suggestion just the other day. But I don't agree with the argument you use to accomplish it.

The only reason I used Racism as a fact is because it is racist or at least stereotypical to say that all redguards must be good with stamina. Also the argument is really just to get people to talk about it as most people see racist and it acts as click bait

Anorak · September 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

Part of the issue is that it's actually not very accurate to call the different races of TES "different races" as many of them are actually different species.

In fact, you could even argue that all of them are different species, as through various means (including magical) even those that could be considered different races of the same species (like all of the mer races) have diverged enough that they can't truly be considered the same species anymore. I mean look at the differences between *** sapiens and *** neanderthalensis. I'd say they're probably less divergent than bosmer and orsimer...

Edit: apparently the scientific classification of various hominids gets automatically censored by the forums. I'm talking about the 2 species commonly known as modern humans, and neanderthals, respectively.

Race- as a social construct is a group of people who share similar and distinct physical characteristics

definition again provided by google soooo yep ZoS is making people racist #confirmed
Still the fact that I'm trying to get at is that a khajiit can still be a skilled mage and a redguard can be really bulky and not just good with a sword.

JKorr · September 2015

Anorak wrote: »

Well I started off by googling the definition of racism and here it is:

Racism- the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

So the fact that every single Redguard in the game is a competent stamina user, but is considered a lightweight to a High Elf when it comes to magic and vice versa. In the end ZoS has made everyone a racist because everyone knows now that certain races are weaker than others simply because the way they look.

Now I know that is all kind of a "This guy is just trolling" kind of argument, but it brings up the fact that the defense that certain races should be good at certain things doesn't hold up. The fact is we should be able to choose our racial passives as we create our characters and respec them at a shrine. From many different perspectives this is good as a roleplayer may be playing a shadow scale so they take Wood Elf passives or a competitive player can be a Khajiit but with high elf passives so that they are not limited to having their character look a certain way.

All I'm asking is that ZoS allows indviduals to choose everything about the character from look to stats.

Racism is the belief, etc, etc.

When you can see the numbers, it isn't really a "belief" anymore. That is the thing about games; some races/species can be better at something than others. Throw a really strong cold/ice spell at an altmer, and you end up with a frozen altmer. Throw a really strong cold/ice spell at a nord, and hope someone can heal the axe wounds you're going to get because Nords laugh at frost/cold. Some kind of sickness/illness going around? Altmer have a really high resistence to disease. Other races? not so much. Racism? Not really.

Daymond · September 2015

Lets see if I can say this right using a Ps4 controller.

Like someone said earlier the races in this game are like different species to us in the real world. They will have different traits because of genetics, not to say individuals can not sometimes be different from the norm of their race which is good to have. I do not think its bad to say though that races in the game have certain genetic traits that alllow them to have benifits in certain areas. I do believe racism comes into play when\if any race\species think just because a few genetic traits allow them the potential benifits in some areas they think that they are better than everyone else.

Anorak · September 2015

JKorr wrote: »

Anorak wrote: »

Well I started off by googling the definition of racism and here it is:

Racism- the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

So the fact that every single Redguard in the game is a competent stamina user, but is considered a lightweight to a High Elf when it comes to magic and vice versa. In the end ZoS has made everyone a racist because everyone knows now that certain races are weaker than others simply because the way they look.

Now I know that is all kind of a "This guy is just trolling" kind of argument, but it brings up the fact that the defense that certain races should be good at certain things doesn't hold up. The fact is we should be able to choose our racial passives as we create our characters and respec them at a shrine. From many different perspectives this is good as a roleplayer may be playing a shadow scale so they take Wood Elf passives or a competitive player can be a Khajiit but with high elf passives so that they are not limited to having their character look a certain way.

All I'm asking is that ZoS allows indviduals to choose everything about the character from look to stats.

Racism is the belief, etc, etc.

When you can see the numbers, it isn't really a "belief" anymore. That is the thing about games; some races/species can be better at something than others. Throw a really strong cold/ice spell at an altmer, and you end up with a frozen altmer. Throw a really strong cold/ice spell at a nord, and hope someone can heal the axe wounds you're going to get because Nords laugh at frost/cold. Some kind of sickness/illness going around? Altmer have a really high resistence to disease. Other races? not so much. Racism? Not really.

Yes but you are saying that all nords laugh at the cold. What if my nord grew up raised by High Elves that ended up warming up to him and teaching him magic. By growing up in summer set he wouldn't be cold resistant and if he became more attuned to magic at young age wouldn't he be better than a nord picking it up at the age of 30+?

So perhaps not racist but stereotyping

UrQuan · September 2015

Anorak wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Part of the issue is that it's actually not very accurate to call the different races of TES "different races" as many of them are actually different species.

In fact, you could even argue that all of them are different species, as through various means (including magical) even those that could be considered different races of the same species (like all of the mer races) have diverged enough that they can't truly be considered the same species anymore. I mean look at the differences between *** sapiens and *** neanderthalensis. I'd say they're probably less divergent than bosmer and orsimer...

Edit: apparently the scientific classification of various hominids gets automatically censored by the forums. I'm talking about the 2 species commonly known as modern humans, and neanderthals, respectively.

Race- as a social construct is a group of people who share similar and distinct physical characteristics

definition again provided by google soooo yep ZoS is making people racist #confirmed
Still the fact that I'm trying to get at is that a khajiit can still be a skilled mage and a redguard can be really bulky and not just good with a sword.

That's not an accurate definition of race. Or rather, it's an incomplete definition of race. It goes family > genus > species > subspecies > race, although race really only applies to humans - in other species it would more commonly be referred to as breed.

If you accept that at a minimum some of the different "races" in TES are actually different species (and frankly, you have to accept that, because it's completely undeniable that argonians are a different species from khajiit are a different species from mer are a different species from men - the only ones that you could argue are part of the same species are the different mer, and the different men - but even they are definitely different species from each other), then it makes perfect sense that one species will be better than another at some things, because that's exactly what happens.

As an example, neanderthals were physically superior to humans in virtually every respect, with the exception that humans were better at vocalization and long distance running. So if they were 2 races you could play in ESO, neanderthals would probably get bonuses to health, and maybe weapon damage, while humans would probably get a reduction in stamina cost of sprinting, and maybe some magicka bonus (the fact that humans were physically better equipped for vocalization is likely to have allowed us to form languages more easily, which would lead to better development of abstract thought and higher brain functions, despite our smaller brains compared to neanderthals).

Anorak · September 2015

Daymond wrote: »

Lets see if I can say this right using a Ps4 controller.

Like someone said earlier the races in this game are like different species to us in the real world. They will have different traits because of genetics, not to say individuals can not sometimes be different from the norm of their race which is good to have. I do not think its bad to say though that races in the game have certain genetic traits that alllow them to have benifits in certain areas. I do believe racism comes into play when\if any race\species think just because a few genetic traits allow them the potential benifits in some areas they think that they are better than everyone else.

True, but at the same time this isn't a logical world were genetics and science make sense. Two household cats may be Khajiit and normal child which 3 months later started looking more human than cat. All I'm saying is people should beable to make their characters the way they want and it wouldn't hurt anyone's experience.

Anorak · September 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

Anorak wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Part of the issue is that it's actually not very accurate to call the different races of TES "different races" as many of them are actually different species.

In fact, you could even argue that all of them are different species, as through various means (including magical) even those that could be considered different races of the same species (like all of the mer races) have diverged enough that they can't truly be considered the same species anymore. I mean look at the differences between *** sapiens and *** neanderthalensis. I'd say they're probably less divergent than bosmer and orsimer...

Edit: apparently the scientific classification of various hominids gets automatically censored by the forums. I'm talking about the 2 species commonly known as modern humans, and neanderthals, respectively.

Race- as a social construct is a group of people who share similar and distinct physical characteristics

definition again provided by google soooo yep ZoS is making people racist #confirmed
Still the fact that I'm trying to get at is that a khajiit can still be a skilled mage and a redguard can be really bulky and not just good with a sword.

That's not an accurate definition of race. Or rather, it's an incomplete definition of race. It goes family > genus > species > subspecies > race, although race really only applies to humans - in other species it would more commonly be referred to as breed.

If you accept that at a minimum some of the different "races" in TES are actually different species (and frankly, you have to accept that, because it's completely undeniable that argonians are a different species from khajiit are a different species from mer are a different species from men - the only ones that you could argue are part of the same species are the different mer, and the different men - but even they are definitely different species from each other), then it makes perfect sense that one species will be better than another at some things, because that's exactly what happens.

As an example, neanderthals were physically superior to humans in virtually every respect, with the exception that humans were better at vocalization and long distance running. So if they were 2 races you could play in ESO, neanderthals would probably get bonuses to health, and maybe weapon damage, while humans would probably get a reduction in stamina cost of sprinting, and maybe some magicka bonus (the fact that humans were physically better equipped for vocalization is likely to have allowed us to form languages more easily, which would lead to better development of abstract thought and higher brain functions, despite our smaller brains compared to neanderthals).

This isn't real life and they do not have science or those classifications in TES. Honestly they are still a race of people. Now in terms of being better at something due to sheer genetics I don't believe that is always the case as there are always genetic mutations. Perhaps a khajiit that is crazy good with spells or a high elf with the strength of 10 men? All I'm saying is even from the scientific stand not every person/race/species in TES would have the exact same bonuses.

Daymond · September 2015

Anorak wrote: »

Daymond wrote: »

Lets see if I can say this right using a Ps4 controller.

Like someone said earlier the races in this game are like different species to us in the real world. They will have different traits because of genetics, not to say individuals can not sometimes be different from the norm of their race which is good to have. I do not think its bad to say though that races in the game have certain genetic traits that alllow them to have benifits in certain areas. I do believe racism comes into play when\if any race\species think just because a few genetic traits allow them the potential benifits in some areas they think that they are better than everyone else.

True, but at the same time this isn't a logical world were genetics and science make sense. Two household cats may be Khajiit and normal child which 3 months later started looking more human than cat. All I'm saying is people should beable to make their characters the way they want and it wouldn't hurt anyone's experience.

It would be cool to choose, but it will probably open up alot of balance issues if they tried to implement.

briandivisionb16_ESO · September 2015

There is saving grace in the fact that: The races in ESO are very dissimilar to the human race.
Yes; all Khajits are fast.
No; most Orcs aren't intelligent.
^^

Acrolas · September 2015

It'll never be the most ideal system.

I'd rather them gut racial powers and do a Willpower/Agility/Endurance skill tree that you could only put 9 total points into, with a higher reset cost and a seven day cooldown period. That gives you all the possible magicka/stamina/health options you might want on any character and the option to hybrid if you so choose.

You'd choose which weapon or armor you want a bonus in on your character sheet, and only be allowed to change it every seven days.

To keep them attractive as a pay race, Imperials would have a scaling Red Diamond as a passive, along with bonus scaling stamina and health regeneration.

And Argonians would always have bonus passive swim speed, because they've always been at the bottom of the barrel.

Honestly, I think that's the fresh breath of air this game needs right about now.

Tessie · September 2015

This sounds like a request for a feature change being justified by disguising it as real-world social issue. Racism in the real world in an issue that deserves attention, but in ESO it obviously doesn't deserve the same amount of attention.

In ESO/TES, many of these races could almost be considered different species. In the real world an amphibian will swim faster than a feline. And a feline may have faster reflexes that a human. To suggest that these biological differences shouldn't be allowed to be used as game mechanics because they may remind people of a real world social injustice doesn't sound like a valid justification for the change.

An Elf is not a Khajiit which is not a human which is not an Argonian which is not an Orc. If you don't like the racial passives game mechanic, just come right out and say it, rather than call it racism.

Anorak · September 2015

briandivisionb16_ESO wrote: »

There is saving grace in the fact that: The races in ESO are very dissimilar to the human race.
Yes; all Khajits are fast.
No; most Orcs aren't intelligent.
^^

Yea most aren't but what if my orc just happened to be... WHAT THEN!!!! My racial passives don't help me and roleplay immersion is broken.

Prof_Bawbag · September 2015

Like others have mentioned, TES games do contain racism. The real life timeline it depicts [medieval] was rife with racism and probably a lot worse than it comes across in the game. Hell, even just going back to the 80's both racism and sexism was normal behavior.

Anorak · September 2015

Tessie wrote: »

This sounds like a request for a feature change being justified by disguising it as real-world social issue. Racism in the real world in an issue that deserves attention, but in ESO it obviously doesn't deserve the same amount of attention.

In ESO/TES, many of these races could almost be considered different species. In the real world an amphibian will swim faster than a feline. And a feline may have faster reflexes that a human. To suggest that these biological differences shouldn't be allowed to be used as game mechanics because they may remind people of a real world social injustice doesn't sound like a valid justification for the change.

An Elf is not a Khajiit which is not a human which is not an Argonian which is not an Orc. If you don't like the racial passives game mechanic, just come right out and say it, rather than call it racism.

It is racism and I have posted the definitions. If you account for full science it is possible for genetic mutations to cause a khajiit to be good with spells or an argonian to be good at swordplay or stealth. Also you could always throw in the magic factor to say that anything is possible in the TES universe so why can't a single khajiit be as good as a high elf at casting spells.

Also they can use the mechanic I honestly don't care the only thing I care about is the fact that you should be able to play anyway you want without being hindered by the fact that you want a character to look a certain way.

Anorak · September 2015

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Like others have mentioned, TES games do contain racism. The real life timeline it depicts [medieval] was rife with racism and probably a lot worse than it comes across in the game. Hell, even just going back to the 80's both racism and sexism was normal behavior.

Not saying that racism isn't normal. A high elf can believe that a khajiit or argonian is bad at casting spells but who is to say that they didn't develop to be just as good as a high elf.

Fissh · September 2015

We should all grow up with teddy bears, no bullies, no gender roles, equal allowances, equal bedtimes, no culture, dye all our skin grey...... That way, not one of us will know how to deal with adversity.
Silver spoons for us all!!!!!!!!!!

Starshadw · September 2015

Anorak wrote: »

Well I started off by googling the definition of racism and here it is:

Racism- the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

So the fact that every single Redguard in the game is a competent stamina user, but is considered a lightweight to a High Elf when it comes to magic and vice versa. In the end ZoS has made everyone a racist because everyone knows now that certain races are weaker than others simply because the way they look.

Now I know that is all kind of a "This guy is just trolling" kind of argument, but it brings up the fact that the defense that certain races should be good at certain things doesn't hold up. The fact is we should be able to choose our racial passives as we create our characters and respec them at a shrine. From many different perspectives this is good as a roleplayer may be playing a shadow scale so they take Wood Elf passives or a competitive player can be a Khajiit but with high elf passives so that they are not limited to having their character look a certain way.

All I'm asking is that ZoS allows indviduals to choose everything about the character from look to stats.

I suppose one could simply not call them racial passives, and instead simply call them passives and allow people to choose the ones they prefer.

UrQuan · September 2015

Anorak wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Anorak wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Part of the issue is that it's actually not very accurate to call the different races of TES "different races" as many of them are actually different species.

In fact, you could even argue that all of them are different species, as through various means (including magical) even those that could be considered different races of the same species (like all of the mer races) have diverged enough that they can't truly be considered the same species anymore. I mean look at the differences between *** sapiens and *** neanderthalensis. I'd say they're probably less divergent than bosmer and orsimer...

Edit: apparently the scientific classification of various hominids gets automatically censored by the forums. I'm talking about the 2 species commonly known as modern humans, and neanderthals, respectively.

Race- as a social construct is a group of people who share similar and distinct physical characteristics

definition again provided by google soooo yep ZoS is making people racist #confirmed
Still the fact that I'm trying to get at is that a khajiit can still be a skilled mage and a redguard can be really bulky and not just good with a sword.

That's not an accurate definition of race. Or rather, it's an incomplete definition of race. It goes family > genus > species > subspecies > race, although race really only applies to humans - in other species it would more commonly be referred to as breed.

If you accept that at a minimum some of the different "races" in TES are actually different species (and frankly, you have to accept that, because it's completely undeniable that argonians are a different species from khajiit are a different species from mer are a different species from men - the only ones that you could argue are part of the same species are the different mer, and the different men - but even they are definitely different species from each other), then it makes perfect sense that one species will be better than another at some things, because that's exactly what happens.

As an example, neanderthals were physically superior to humans in virtually every respect, with the exception that humans were better at vocalization and long distance running. So if they were 2 races you could play in ESO, neanderthals would probably get bonuses to health, and maybe weapon damage, while humans would probably get a reduction in stamina cost of sprinting, and maybe some magicka bonus (the fact that humans were physically better equipped for vocalization is likely to have allowed us to form languages more easily, which would lead to better development of abstract thought and higher brain functions, despite our smaller brains compared to neanderthals).

This isn't real life and they do not have science or those classifications in TES. Honestly they are still a race of people. Now in terms of being better at something due to sheer genetics I don't believe that is always the case as there are always genetic mutations. Perhaps a khajiit that is crazy good with spells or a high elf with the strength of 10 men? All I'm saying is even from the scientific stand not every person/race/species in TES would have the exact same bonuses.

You can't say "this isn't real life and they do not have science or those classifications in TES" while simultaneously trying to apply real life definitions of racism. Sorry, but you don't get to have it both ways. You've just completely invalidated every single post you've made in this thread.