A smart and fair solution for shield stacking and Shield Breaker Set changes

contact.opiumb16_ESO · September 2015

Shield stacking is clearely a problem in this game, a lot of people asked for a shield nerf, sorcerers cried a lot, ZOS found a bad and lazy trick (shield breaker set) instead of rethinking the game mecanic.

I think shields shall work like the other buffs in the game :
. Major Shield
. Minor Shield

a major shield can't stack with another one, a minor shield can't stack with another one, but you can stack a minor and a major shield.

Of course almost all the shields should need a rework, because annulment (and morphs) won't work like it work now because all the shields shall absorb both magicka and physical damage. Any shield shall be a minor one in its basic form, the 2 morphs could be :
1. becomes a major shield
2. increase the side effect

With this system, we can't have 2 strong shields but one strong and one with a better effect.

Examples of new shields :
. conjured wards = minor shield on self + pets, first morph is major shield on self, second is still minor and gives more damage to pets
. annulement = minor shield on self, first morph is major shield on self, second is still minor and absorb magic based on light armor equiped
. Bone shield = minor shield on self + minor shield synergy for allies, first morph is major on self + major shield synergy for allies, second is still minor and returns 30% melee attacks on attacker + minor shield synergy for allies
. Barrier = minor shield on self and allies, first morph is Major shield on self and allies, second is minor shield on self and allies and gives ult return
. steadfast ward = minor shield on lowest ally and heal at the end, first morph is Major shield on lowest ally and heal at the end, second morph is Minor Ward on self + on lowest ally and heal both at the end
. Obsidian Shield = minor shield on self + allies, first morph is major on self + minor on allies, second is Minor on self + allies and deals damage when effect ends
. Sun shield = minor shield on self + deals damage when activated, first morph is Major and returns % of damage absorbed at the end, second is minor shield on self + deals more damage when activated
. other shield buffs like Shielded Assault are always a minor one without side effect

The shield duration shall be the same for any shield = 20s.

With this any shield is equal, we need to think in term of Major/Minor/side effects strategies, nobody can be "over-shielded" and the balance between shields is more easy because only the side effects values are variables.

For Shield Breaker, while we have a very balanced shield mecanic, the set shall give, instead of giving damage through the shields, it can give "100% more damage on shields with any attack (10s cooldown)". It can break shields effectively, as its name suggest.

contact.opiumb16_ESO · September 2015

"Bone shield = minor shield on self + minor shield synergy for allies, first morph is major on self + major shield synergy for allies, second is still minor and returns 30% melee attacks on attacker + minor shield synergy for allies"

should better be :
"Bone shield = minor shield on self + minor shield synergy for allies, first morph is major on self + minor shield synergy for allies, second is still minor and returns 30% melee attacks on attacker + minor shield synergy for allies"

And of course if you want to cast two minor shields for the side effects on top of a major one, you can, but you will just have, on top of the 3 side effects, only one Major Shield buff and one Minor Shield buff.

Ps : sorry if my english is not very good, but i guess you all get the idea

RoxyPhoenix · September 2015

Whats u asking for is converting actuall skills in to buffs, never gonna happen

contact.opiumb16_ESO · September 2015

@RoxyPhoenix why it should not happenned ? Shields are not "skills" by themselves but buffs why variables and side effects

Emma_Overload · September 2015

This is actually a pretty good idea, but... it's too late now. What would they do with the Shield Breaker set for all the people who already upgraded it with gold mats? They would even have to change the name, LOL.

contact.opiumb16_ESO · September 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

This is actually a pretty good idea, but... it's too late now. What would they do with the Shield Breaker set for all the people who already upgraded it with gold mats? They would even have to change the name, LOL.

Actually a shield "BREAKER" shall break a shield faster, as intended by its name. As it is now it is a shield "bypasser" right ?

And i guess if people like this idea to change shields as Major and Minor buffs, maybe it will come in a futur patch like the Orsinium one, who knows

@Hexys i know you as very strong sorcerer (you killed me a ridiculous amount of time in PVP). Can you support this change in shield mecanics and Shield Breaker changes ?

willymchilybily · September 2015

You could just apply the concept the current system magicka or health instead of major and minor. It would be easier. Magicka based shields cant stack with other magicka shields and health shields cant stack with other health based shields.

i liked the concept but your examples are bad.

eg.

obsidian shield, one of the morphs is igneous shield it is meant to be health based shield and buff to healing. Without it scaling to health the shield is not so good for a health based tanks and without the healing buff even worse. but the major shield would be very OP for a DK damage class that really doesnt need good shielding. you nerf a tank and buff a dps. im sure the other examples could have similar pitfalls

ToRelax · September 2015

I really don't like the buff system. They say it's there to increase build diversity but in my eyes it does exactly the opposite: It limits your ability to fine tune your stats and skills and leaves you only obvious choices. Sure you could stack more buffs before, but every single one of them needed a place on your bar, and you don't have many.
So no, I don't want this system be adapted for shields either, sounds like a terrible idea to me not being able to invest into shield strength. Next we come with minor and major HoT, minor and major DoT etc.

It has always been two skills that made shieldstacking powerful when you combined them with class shields: Annulment and Healing Ward. Change Annulment to something else and Healing Ward into a instant burst heal (that heals for less than Rushed Ceremony, but more than Blessing of Restoration). Done, shieldstacking is not an issue anymore.

contact.opiumb16_ESO · September 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

I really don't like the buff system. They say it's there to increase build diversity but in my eyes it does exactly the opposite: It limits your ability to fine tune your stats and skills and leaves you only obvious choices. Sure you could stack more buffs before, but every single one of them needed a place on your bar, and you don't have many.
So no, I don't want this system be adapted for shields either, sounds like a terrible idea to me not being able to invest into shield strength. Next we come with minor and major HoT, minor and major DoT etc.

It has always been two skills that made shieldstacking powerful when you combined them with class shields: Annulment and Healing Ward. Change Annulment to something else and Healing Ward into a instant burst heal (that heals for less than Rushed Ceremony, but more than Blessing of Restoration). Done, shieldstacking is not an issue anymore.

So, we will continue with non sorcerers crying about shield stacking AND sorcerers crying about shield breaker set.

Aedaryl · September 2015

Shield staking need a nerf, but I don't think your solution is the best.

There are two kind of shields : Class shields and other.

I think class shields are okay, but 2 shields in "other" category are a problem.

First : the light armor skill : if you play magicka, you need this shield, so, all magicka fighter use it in PvP, it's boring to fight and fights are really long, it's a stupid op skill in this TTK. If you are magicka and play without this skill against an other magicka hwo have it, it's a real problem, so all need this.

The shield of this skill need to be remove, so every magicka user can have an other skill and it's resolve a big part of shield stacking. This skill just need to regen magicka.

Second : Healing ward : It's the only good heal for magicla player (templar don't need it), but, it's a shield. Personnaly, I think it's okay, but for remove the shield stacking, this skill need to be remove too, but, we need an other smart heal if it's happen

So, if we change those non-class shields, it's over for shield stacking.

I'm a sorcerer and I hope zenimax change this break mechanic.

eliisra · September 2015

Got hit with a 2k Shield Breaker proc because my DK still used a VR14 sword with a glyph of hardening on it...

That enchant only gave 330 shield lol. I still got hit for 2k, of course while blocking, from Shield Breaker. Would most likely have died anyway, since outnumbered, but my *** VR14 enchant surely didn't help.

That set shouldn't be procc'ing full dmg, when there's no real shield to bypass in the first place.

Having Minor and Major shields would definitely be a great solution to both shield stack and controlling Shield Breaker (not proc on minor shields like a silly 300 enchant).

Aedaryl · September 2015

Or all class shields are a major shield, and other are a minor shield.The problem is the combinasion between anulment and Healing ward...

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · September 2015

The set use irresistible damage like the weapon enchant it goes though shield and block but it's irresistible. Besides to use the set you have to light attack them to death it would be far better to have 50% of my damage be irresistible VS a shield.

zornyan · September 2015

Don't worry guys, zos have said in their most recent live stream they will not be altering shield breaker sets as regardless of people moaning like kids about it, they are happy with how it's working.

It's here to stay!

Aunatar · September 2015

ZOS really needs to grt a look to this post. @ZOS_GinaBruno please consider it, it's a great idea

zornyan · September 2015

Aunatar wrote: »

ZOS really needs to grt a look to this post. @ZOS_GinaBruno please consider it, it's a great idea

They have, they said in the live stream they've heard and seen all the cries about the set, and that they have read the rage on the forums (for want of a better word) but they are happy with how it's actually working in practise and won't be changing anything.

Aunatar · September 2015

zornyan wrote: »

Aunatar wrote: »

ZOS really needs to grt a look to this post. @ZOS_GinaBruno please consider it, it's a great idea

They have, they said in the live stream they've heard and seen all the cries about the set, and that they have read the rage on the forums (for want of a better word) but they are happy with how it's actually working in practise and won't be changing anything.

It' always lovely to hear how much consideration they give to the players who dedicate time commentig on the forum.
A question rises: why do we even discuss it? Why do we use our time suggesting improvements to the game?
N.B. that's the same answer they gave to the comments about the insane siege weapon dmg.
"Yes we heard all the players don't like it.. but we like it, then get used to it"
I mean, is it possible that this game is still completely changing and looking for balance after almost 2 years since release?
It will NOT become balanced if they keep ignoring us..

contact.opiumb16_ESO · September 2015

@Aunatar thx for the support. I really think my mecanic should balance shield for any class. Major and Minor buffs are a good option IMO because nobody can be "over-buffed" with it.

Just consider this scenario (i have seen it a lot of time in PVP) :
a sorcerer put harness + healing ward + conjured ward. He have a virtual double of his initial life pull. Another sorcerer, his ally, put then Barrier. Good luck to kill those two guys. They are both "other-shielded". With my mecanic, harness (Major) + conjured (Major) + healing ward (Major) + barrier (major), they are all Major Shield, so they don't stack (if the sorcerer have pets up, they have Minor Shield + he have the healing from healing ward). Those sorcerers now have to think about Major/Minor/side effects to be affective. This gives more strategy synergies between two allies playing together, they can't just play blinded shield stackers. In front of them, a stam NB or tamplar etc, can destroy their shield by giving a big burst with the new Shield Breaker, without play no-brain bow light attacks that just bypass their shield. Balanced are fair right ?

Aunatar · September 2015

@contact.opiumb16_ESO Anybody could use Harness+Healing Ward+Barrier. Plus, hardened ward now gives only 10k shield with 35k+ max magicka. Never had any issue with that shield with my NB, neither my mates had troubles. The issue is about a bad design, let me give you an example.
A random DK walk besides your group, using Igneous shield to get some health back; all your group now have something like 1,5k shield.
What happens now? Everybody in your group is vulnerable to shield breaker and if he takes a dmg of 10k, both shield and armor/spell resistance won't mitigate that dmg. In fact, even with 60k armor/spell resistance, he would take 10k-1,5k(shield)=8,5k dmg (CP matters tho).
Sorcerers aren't the only class with shields: try to kill a nightblade who is spamming harness magicka and healing springs/swallow soul with a magicka DK. Flame lash, with 32k magicka and 2.3k spell dmg, hits for 3k, is that a joke?? Try to hit him with a wrecking blow: dmg is floating around 6-10k. Is this balance?
Btw, I liked the idea of Major and Minor shields, but the important thing is you can't apply 2 Major shields at the same time and every Major shield must have his Minor effect too: once you have a Major shield on, if you cast another major shield, it cancel the first Major but you keep the Minor effect. I think that would be a great solution to balance shield stacking without ruining an entire mechanic.
Trust me sorcerers are having really bad times these days. Must not be a case that I only see 70%+ nightblades in IC

contact.opiumb16_ESO · September 2015

Aunatar wrote: »

@contact.opiumb16_ESO Anybody could use Harness+Healing Ward+Barrier. Plus, hardened ward now gives only 10k shield with 35k+ max magicka. Never had any issue with that shield with my NB, neither my mates had troubles. The issue is about a bad design, let me give you an example.
A random DK walk besides your group, using Igneous shield to get some health back; all your group now have something like 1,5k shield.
What happens now? Everybody in your group is vulnerable to shield breaker and if he takes a dmg of 10k, both shield and armor/spell resistance won't mitigate that dmg. In fact, even with 60k armor/spell resistance, he would take 10k-1,5k(shield)=8,5k dmg (CP matters tho).
Sorcerers aren't the only class with shields: try to kill a nightblade who is spamming harness magicka and healing springs/swallow soul with a magicka DK. Flame lash, with 32k magicka and 2.3k spell dmg, hits for 3k, is that a joke?? Try to hit him with a wrecking blow: dmg is floating around 6-10k. Is this balance?
Btw, I liked the idea of Major and Minor shields, but the important thing is you can't apply 2 Major shields at the same time and every Major shield must have his Minor effect too: once you have a Major shield on, if you cast another major shield, it cancel the first Major but you keep the Minor effect. I think that would be a great solution to balance shield stacking without ruining an entire mechanic.
Trust me sorcerers are having really bad times these days. Must not be a case that I only see 70%+ nightblades in IC

Yeah i know sorcerers are not the only one using shields, i can do same "over-shielded" example with any class. People cried over the "over-shielded" caracters, with this mecanic you and your group can't be overshielded and you can still have the beneficts of the side effects, and can't be punished because of, as you say, a random DK is spamming is shield (or another group shield like barrier).

Ps : I do have a templar, a nb and a sorcerer, i don't use shield anymore in any.

leepalmer95 · September 2015

Like someone said somewhere make it so it have a cooldown or lower the dmg to 500 dmg per shield on.

So when people do this mythical 'shield' stacking which i fail to actually see, they'll be penalised more and sorc's who actually use their classes defence e.g. hardened ward won't be penalised too much.

contact.opiumb16_ESO · September 2015

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Like someone said somewhere make it so it have a cooldown or lower the dmg to 500 dmg per shield on.

So when people do this mythical 'shield' stacking which i fail to actually see, they'll be penalised more and sorc's who actually use their classes defence e.g. hardened ward won't be penalised too much.

Their is no cooldown on skills in ESO (not officially at least). When you say this : "lower the dmg to 500 dmg per shield on", what do you mean ? diminish the weapon/spell damage, or diminish the strenght of each bubble ?

"So when people do this mythical 'shield' stacking which i fail to actually see" : really ? whith my sorcerer i can stack ward + harness + healing ward (+ barrier when i want to go in big pvp group). As they do scale with magicka, and as a sorcerer i can stack max magicka almost exclusively (tp save my ass ^^), my shield stacking is HUGE ! I guess you don't pvp much dude

The real problem is not sorcerers only as @Aunatar pointed, but the bad design of Shield Breaker (wich is in fact a shield bypasser) wich penalyse anyone because of a bad mecanic. Templars can shield stack BUT their main shield as a 6s duration. DK can stack but their shield is a group shield mostly.

Let's talk about major/minor buffs. Sorcerers have 2 armor buffs : lighting form AND bound armor. First is Major Resolve, second is Minor Resolve. You can stack them for a flat armor buff, but you can't stack lighting form with immovable for example. If you do, you will have less armor buff than the first combo, but you will still have the CC immunity from immovable (wich as a ridiculous duration/cost i agree).

I do want the same mecanic, as my OP explain in detail, because any class can have fair and balanced shields this way + shield breaker will be a breaker, not a bypasser, as i explained sooner

leepalmer95 · September 2015

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Like someone said somewhere make it so it have a cooldown or lower the dmg to 500 dmg per shield on.

So when people do this mythical 'shield' stacking which i fail to actually see, they'll be penalised more and sorc's who actually use their classes defence e.g. hardened ward won't be penalised too much.

Their is no cooldown on skills in ESO (not officially at least). When you say this : "lower the dmg to 500 dmg per shield on", what do you mean ? diminish the weapon/spell damage, or diminish the strenght of each bubble ?

"So when people do this mythical 'shield' stacking which i fail to actually see" : really ? whith my sorcerer i can stack ward + harness + healing ward (+ barrier when i want to go in big pvp group). As they do scale with magicka, and as a sorcerer i can stack max magicka almost exclusively (tp save my ass ^^), my shield stacking is HUGE ! I guess you don't pvp much dude

The real problem is not sorcerers only as @Aunatar pointed, but the bad design of Shield Breaker (wich is in fact a shield bypasser) wich penalyse anyone because of a bad mecanic. Templars can shield stack BUT their main shield as a 6s duration. DK can stack but their shield is a group shield mostly.

Let's talk about major/minor buffs. Sorcerers have 2 armor buffs : lighting form AND bound armor. First is Major Resolve, second is Minor Resolve. You can stack them for a flat armor buff, but you can't stack lighting form with immovable for example. If you do, you will have less armor buff than the first combo, but you will still have the CC immunity from immovable (wich as a ridiculous duration/cost i agree).

I do want the same mecanic, as my OP explain in detail, because any class can have fair and balanced shields this way + shield breaker will be a breaker, not a bypasser, as i explained sooner

Theres a global cooldown on skills, which is why if you spam a skill it'll only attack at a certain speed, hence why weaving is a thing because they have seperate cooldowns.

I mean't 500 dmg per shield they have on, 1 shield 500 dmg to hp, 2 shields 1k dmg to hp etc....

Hardened does physical + Magicka
Harness does magicka only

Thats the only shield people go around with, healing is a heal and isn't used for the actual shield because it lasts 6s and the shield becomes hp.

I do pvp a lot i just don't run around in big groups as that bored me completely, hence i don't slot barrier either, also barrier is a ultimate so it's not exactly counted as a reliable shield.

contact.opiumb16_ESO · September 2015

leepalmer95 wrote: »

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Like someone said somewhere make it so it have a cooldown or lower the dmg to 500 dmg per shield on.

So when people do this mythical 'shield' stacking which i fail to actually see, they'll be penalised more and sorc's who actually use their classes defence e.g. hardened ward won't be penalised too much.

Their is no cooldown on skills in ESO (not officially at least). When you say this : "lower the dmg to 500 dmg per shield on", what do you mean ? diminish the weapon/spell damage, or diminish the strenght of each bubble ?

"So when people do this mythical 'shield' stacking which i fail to actually see" : really ? whith my sorcerer i can stack ward + harness + healing ward (+ barrier when i want to go in big pvp group). As they do scale with magicka, and as a sorcerer i can stack max magicka almost exclusively (tp save my ass ^^), my shield stacking is HUGE ! I guess you don't pvp much dude

The real problem is not sorcerers only as @Aunatar pointed, but the bad design of Shield Breaker (wich is in fact a shield bypasser) wich penalyse anyone because of a bad mecanic. Templars can shield stack BUT their main shield as a 6s duration. DK can stack but their shield is a group shield mostly.

Let's talk about major/minor buffs. Sorcerers have 2 armor buffs : lighting form AND bound armor. First is Major Resolve, second is Minor Resolve. You can stack them for a flat armor buff, but you can't stack lighting form with immovable for example. If you do, you will have less armor buff than the first combo, but you will still have the CC immunity from immovable (wich as a ridiculous duration/cost i agree).

I do want the same mecanic, as my OP explain in detail, because any class can have fair and balanced shields this way + shield breaker will be a breaker, not a bypasser, as i explained sooner

Theres a global cooldown on skills, which is why if you spam a skill it'll only attack at a certain speed, hence why weaving is a thing because they have seperate cooldowns.

I mean't 500 dmg per shield they have on, 1 shield 500 dmg to hp, 2 shields 1k dmg to hp etc....

Hardened does physical + Magicka
Harness does magicka only

Thats the only shield people go around with, healing is a heal and isn't used for the actual shield because it lasts 6s and the shield becomes hp.

I do pvp a lot i just don't run around in big groups as that bored me completely, hence i don't slot barrier either, also barrier is a ultimate so it's not exactly counted as a reliable shield.

Well, a global cooldown is different from a skill cooldown, as it is in over mmo's. I do think that a set called "shield breaker" shall not hit HP but shield himself, overwise its name should be Shield Bypasser. A lot of shield stackers use healing ward as a shield when low HP, combined with other shield it gives a huge defense.

And for barrier, organised groups use it a lot. Try to kill a guy with barrier + hardened + harness, it's almost impossible, imagine a group of sorcerers as i see a lot on EU servers, popping Hardened + harness + barrier + bone shield, you are in front of godlike players.

Kupoking · September 2015

I like.

olsborg · September 2015

Shieldbreaker set to counter shieldstacking, yea it was a cheap way to try and fix the balance of the game. Remove shieldstacking, make this set work on a cooldown or make it hit the actual shield.

Waffennacht · September 2015

Ok I'm gonna start with (at least for the foreseeable future) shield breaker is here to stay unchanged.

Now, cause I'm console, I would really like some add ons. My initial problem with shield breaker is I'm already screwed before I know it. The first several hits will be unknown to me that it's going past my shield. If i'm PvP then my attention will not solely be on my healthbar while shield is up.

Many say we have to play better, ok sure, but PC gamers have tools that would allow for that improvement. Please grant us those tools.

If I can see the damage im takiing I can react accordingly, as its I'll have a delayed reaction almost always resulting in my death.

contact.opiumb16_ESO · September 2015

olsborg wrote: »

Shieldbreaker set to counter shieldstacking, yea it was a cheap way to try and fix the balance of the game. Remove shieldstacking, make this set work on a cooldown or make it hit the actual shield.

yeah this is more or less what my solution can do

Oh_Skrivva · September 2015

Another option could be each light or heavy attack has a 25% (or whatever % chance) to proc the damage. Or maybe it has to be a fully charged heavy attack (not medium attack) to proc it. So at least it gives shield stackers a chance to defend themselves a little longer.

NoRefunds · September 2015

just make shields crittable, all problems solved, there are a lot of skills-passives and set bonuses that are based on crit, the fact that they become completely useless vs shields users makes no sense

contact.opiumb16_ESO · September 2015

NoRefunds wrote: »

just make shields crittable, all problems solved, there are a lot of skills-passives and set bonuses that are based on crit, the fact that they become completely useless vs shields users makes no sense

actually it won't solve anything, because shields take unmitigated damage (as if you was naked), so if we can crit them, they will instablow and become useless... except if people shield stack even more. It will penalyse players with no stack mecanic.