zornyan wrote: »

So what other stamina abilities does a 2 handed dk have? That are effective 1 v 1?

The issue being that it isnt effective in 1v1. There is little reason to balance anything around 1v1 in this game. Its not a 1v1 setup.

That being said the wb spammers are usually the guys who will crit charge you while you are in a fight or will wb from stealth while you are busy.

This is my issue with the skill, sure if they are your only focus and you die to wb that is on you, but if they get you with a wb outside of that one specific case you are dead.

Its the same as snipe from stealth, if they are your only opponent and you are aware its easy to beat them, otherwise nope, but it is balanced in that you can mage light or reflect and shield against it.

WB you cant.

All you elite people who play video games for a living and telling people to l2p i am surprised twitch inst over capacity 24/7

*edit phone fingers

yodased wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

So what other stamina abilities does a 2 handed dk have? That are effective 1 v 1?

The issue being that it isnt effective in 1v1. There us little reasob to balance anything around 1v1 in this game. Its not a 1v1 setup.

That being said the wb spammers are ysually the guys who will crit charge you while you are in a fight or will wb from stealth while you are busy.

This is my issue with the skill, sure if they are your only focus and you die to wb that is on you, but if they get you with a wb outisde of that one specific case you are dead.

Its the same as snupe from stealth, if they are your only opponent and you are aware its easy to beat them, otherwise nope, but it is balanced in that you can mage light or reflect and shield against it.

WB you cant.

All you elite people who play video games for a living and telling people to l2p i am suprised twitch isnt over capacity 24/7

Okay if the issue is with fighting multiple opponents and one or both of them are spamming wb then I would ask why are you not using a potion of immovable, which negates the stun effect of wb and other CC effects. Then for good measure you pop evasion which will remove a snare effect and increase your chance to dodge the next volley of wb spam. Now you are in your basic 1vx situation and this comes down to player skill. As you said this is a multi player game so why are you not anticipating that any engagement you enter that you will have to fight multiple opponents, especially considering the prevalence of zergs. Which in my opinion is much more of a noob tactic than spamming wrecking blow. The l2p issue here if you are being attacked by multiple enemies and are dying is learning how to fight against multiple opponents or roll with a better crew who are not going to allow you to get hit by a charged attack.

This is why I am calling this a l2p issue because once you learn the counters to these spammed abilities you shut down the player whose whole plan is built around one skill. If being prepared to fight multiple opponents with any engagement and playing smart makes me elite then so be it, but I am far from a no lifer who has nothing to do but play video games for a living(I have two kids, a wife, and a job that I spend way to much time doing). It has nothing to do with being elite or a no - lifer but has everything to do with how you build your characters and how you fight.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Wb shouldn't be able to buff it's own dmg either.

This was actually a 1.5 patch case, when, back then, the tooltip even said that it will not buff itself. Then when 1.6 came out with consolidated buffs/debuffs, WB has got "Empower Buff" which counts against your next attack, whichever one, WB included. I don't se how it would make sense to exclude it from consolidated buff.

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

I love when people get salty about a skill, if it's ridiculously op why do I barely ever see it in my death recap? Why when I use it do I get far less kills than using something like puncturing sweeps alongside invasion?

Why do people always block/dodge it? Why is it ridiculously easy for me to block?

It's a basic learn to play issue, anyone getting owned by someone spamming one skill needs to re-evaluate themselves and actually learn to play the game.

amen! this is a clear example of players making excuses for their poor play by crying op. we've seen this before on this forum. its tired now, everything is OP if it kills you because you haven't learnt how to defend against it, and by the way some of you have responded it appears that you refuse to learn as well. You have set yourself to believe the skill is OP, or that only scrubs use it, when in fact you are the one getting beat by a skill you see coming almost a second and a half before it even hits you. And you wonder why players spam it, its clear, you use whats effective against your opponent. if you can't block or dodge the glorified heavy attack and you're going to let me charge an ability and hit you with it over and over then why wouldn't you spam it.

And just because a player is defending a skill doesn't make them a spammer either. I don't use wrecking blow on good players, I know I won't hit them with it. Its pointless to use the skill against anyone who plays well cause it takes too long to wind up and connect. Against bad players who either never block or dodge and low stamina users who are chasing some insane magic pool and haven't learned that this game requires effective use of both pools of resources, then yes I'll use it on them because they can't defend against it. I'm not taking advantage of the "OP skill", I'm taking advantage of my opponent. I'm using their deficiency as a player against them, it has nothing to do with the skill itself.

Before anyone ask...How do I know if its a good player or not? If I use wrecking blow once early in the fight and you don't not make me pay for locking myself into a second and a half animation and I still connect with it, then you best believe you will be seeing that skill again. Good players immediately make you pay for that kind of blatant disrespect/ mistake, they make you regret standing locked in an animation for that long. Bad players get hit and cry OP. Again not trying to be disrespectful to anyone, I'm just telling my thought process when I play.

The only person crying in here is you. Everyone else is actually respectfully discussing it while you're just making personal attacks. Grow up.

Colosso-monstro wrote: »

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

I love when people get salty about a skill, if it's ridiculously op why do I barely ever see it in my death recap? Why when I use it do I get far less kills than using something like puncturing sweeps alongside invasion?

Why do people always block/dodge it? Why is it ridiculously easy for me to block?

It's a basic learn to play issue, anyone getting owned by someone spamming one skill needs to re-evaluate themselves and actually learn to play the game.

amen! this is a clear example of players making excuses for their poor play by crying op. we've seen this before on this forum. its tired now, everything is OP if it kills you because you haven't learnt how to defend against it, and by the way some of you have responded it appears that you refuse to learn as well. You have set yourself to believe the skill is OP, or that only scrubs use it, when in fact you are the one getting beat by a skill you see coming almost a second and a half before it even hits you. And you wonder why players spam it, its clear, you use whats effective against your opponent. if you can't block or dodge the glorified heavy attack and you're going to let me charge an ability and hit you with it over and over then why wouldn't you spam it.

And just because a player is defending a skill doesn't make them a spammer either. I don't use wrecking blow on good players, I know I won't hit them with it. Its pointless to use the skill against anyone who plays well cause it takes too long to wind up and connect. Against bad players who either never block or dodge and low stamina users who are chasing some insane magic pool and haven't learned that this game requires effective use of both pools of resources, then yes I'll use it on them because they can't defend against it. I'm not taking advantage of the "OP skill", I'm taking advantage of my opponent. I'm using their deficiency as a player against them, it has nothing to do with the skill itself.

Before anyone ask...How do I know if its a good player or not? If I use wrecking blow once early in the fight and you don't not make me pay for locking myself into a second and a half animation and I still connect with it, then you best believe you will be seeing that skill again. Good players immediately make you pay for that kind of blatant disrespect/ mistake, they make you regret standing locked in an animation for that long. Bad players get hit and cry OP. Again not trying to be disrespectful to anyone, I'm just telling my thought process when I play.

The only person crying in here is you. Everyone else is actually respectfully discussing it while you're just making personal attacks. Grow up.

But... but... I didn't attack anyone. You can disagree without attacking. All I said was that it's a l2p issue, and laid out the criteria I use to determine whether I will use wrecking blow or not. It's on you if you self identify with the criteria I laid out. If you took offense to my comment then I apologize, it is never my intention to attack anyone, but I do not sugar coat ever, I call it like I see it all the time. You have every right to disagree with me, but be prepared to explain why. This is called a discussion, we don't have to agree on what defines a good or a bad player but we do have to be respectful of each others opinion. So please if you feel I've attacked you or anyone in this thread please give example....

In fact don't. ...it's not my intent to derail this thread either

zornyan wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

So what other stamina abilities does a 2 handed dk have? That are effective 1 v 1?

Heavy attack >.>

Sorc suffers from the same syndrom

Oh an even slower attack, that deals less damage, is even easier to spot and will 95% of the time be dodge / blocked. Yeah that's great.

@yodased but still, it's one ability that's easy to counter, it's like saying crystal frags is easy to block/dodge, but not when you've got 3 guys you have your attention on.

Any ability can do that. Not just wrecking blow. Hell some can do it from range.

Like i said learn to weave youy can weave a heavy with a wb and the heavy attack will do very high dmg, also you have burning breath and burning embers.

Wb shouldn't be able to buff it's own dmg either.

Erm why should anyone have to do that to please you?

So in order to not be a scrub, you have to use a heavy attack in between any ability used? So that includes snipe spammers, crystal frag spammers, biting jab spammers, and suprise attack spammers right?

I mean, when fighting someone, instead of weaving in a light attack like most, I should use a really long windup skill, to essentially deal less dps, to keep some *** on the Internet happy?

No...just not

In order to not be a 'scrub' you should use more than a single op skill to pvp with, heavy attack is just an example, also you get a lot more dps weaving and also gain a lot more ultimate, it's a L2P thing..

If a single skill can get the highest dps in a skill tree by simply spamming it then that needs changing.

zornyan wrote: »

It's not a a l2p, I use light/medium weaves, not much point using heavy attacks due to the massively slow swing time.

The l2p issue is if you're getting killed by someone spamming wb then you obviously need to re-evaluate your own skill as it must be pretty poor, I've only been playing since July, nearly exclusively pvp, wrecking blow is the properly the last skill that ever kills me, I barely ever see it in a death recap.

Why? Because I dodge/block/walk through it. If you aren't capable of identifying someone swinging a massive 2 handed weapon back, then you really need to open your eyes.

FYI I don't spam wb as it's essentially useless against anyone with half a brain, as they never get hit by it. But even if I did, I wouldn't care if some randoms thought I was a scrub, this is war, not the care bears, my job is to kill you in the shortest time possible, with whatever tools are at my disposal.

You can animation cancel a wb with a heavy attack.

You know what never mind, you not knowing that despite me mentioning it says everything.

You can't interrupt it (only charge skill you can't), blocking costs so much stamina and the charge time isn't very big, meaning you block it another comes instantly with 20% more dmg.

But like i said i noticed what kind of person i'm talking too, so never mind have fun spamming.

zornyan wrote: »

You just confirmed what I thought, another moron spouting the same crap over and over, clearly you didn't read my post, as I've mentioned several times I don't spam wrecking blow, I stopped using it after my first days in pvp as it gets me killed more than anything,

Tell me this, if it's soooo amazing, soooo powerful and it's too expensive to block/dodge.

Why oh why everytime I ever use it I can't get a single kill? Why every time that I've ever used it it gets blocked/dodged or I get walked through? Why do I, and the people I know never get killed by it?

9/10 times wrecking blow doesn't animation cancel, it actually cancels the entire attack?

The only people in this thread moaning are the ones that need to l2p, as clearly many other millions of players are getting on just fine with blocking/dodging and avoiding the attack.

Oh and uninterruptible? So using your own cc doesn't cancel it? Using another knockdown doesn't cancel it?

Sigh...

Well if your using 2h and not using wb, unless your a nb then your going wrong.

Yes wb can be animation cancelled and yes the whole attack animation will stop. So no it's not 9/10 times it just 9/10 for you because it clear you don't know how to do it. I'd be happy to teach you.

Wb has a 5m range on it so you don't need to literally be so close to someone that they can't walk through you, the actual skill range is a lot larger than the weapon size. Hence why it hits through dodge roll unless they dodge through you.

Interruptible e.g. interrupt skills not working on it (crushing show, psn arrow) and you can't bash it, using cc or other isn't 'interrupting' that is using cc skills and them hitting first. Every other charge skill can be interrupted, hence why there is interrupt skills in the game in the first place.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

You just confirmed what I thought, another moron spouting the same crap over and over, clearly you didn't read my post, as I've mentioned several times I don't spam wrecking blow, I stopped using it after my first days in pvp as it gets me killed more than anything,

Tell me this, if it's soooo amazing, soooo powerful and it's too expensive to block/dodge.

Why oh why everytime I ever use it I can't get a single kill? Why every time that I've ever used it it gets blocked/dodged or I get walked through? Why do I, and the people I know never get killed by it?

9/10 times wrecking blow doesn't animation cancel, it actually cancels the entire attack?

The only people in this thread moaning are the ones that need to l2p, as clearly many other millions of players are getting on just fine with blocking/dodging and avoiding the attack.

Oh and uninterruptible? So using your own cc doesn't cancel it? Using another knockdown doesn't cancel it?

Sigh...

Well if your using 2h and not using wb, unless your a nb then your going wrong.

Yes wb can be animation cancelled and yes the whole attack animation will stop. So no it's not 9/10 times it just 9/10 for you because it clear you don't know how to do it. I'd be happy to teach you.

Wb has a 5m range on it so you don't need to literally be so close to someone that they can't walk through you, the actual skill range is a lot larger than the weapon size. Hence why it hits through dodge roll unless they dodge through you.

Interruptible e.g. interrupt skills not working on it (crushing show, psn arrow) and you can't bash it, using cc or other isn't 'interrupting' that is using cc skills and them hitting first. Every other charge skill can be interrupted, hence why there is interrupt skills in the game in the first place.

Dude you are too funny... you are arguing that wrecking blow is op but giving a player a tip on how to use wrecking blow better. Yes you can weave a heavy attack into the cast time of wrecking blow, but you cannot cancel or cut short the wind up animation of wrecking blow because that will cancel the entire attack. You are trying to correct him by telling him if he uses wrecking blow he can weave in an extra heavy attack, meanwhile you are not addressing the 1.3 second cast time that cannot be cut short, and cannot be canceled. the swing animation is what you are clipping when you weave a heavy attack and yes it makes wrecking blow do more damage, but please explain your way past that cast time or address how you intend to actually hit someone who knows what they are doing. Any skill that requires a cast time in a fast paced pvp is a liability. ..the reason good players say wrecking blow is a noob skill is because pve players are used to owning with it, but they are in for a rude awakening when they encounter skilled players who are not going to stand there and be hit by the glorified heavy attack. No good player gets hit by it, ever. Most will block, or dodge but they will not get hit with it, so what does it matter that you can weave an extra attack in if you can only use the skill against bad players who will allow you to cast a skill that requires time in close range. You can't be the player getting hit by wrecking blow and call that guy hitting you with it a scrub....you literally just went on about how much skill it takes to weave in a heavy attack. ....lol...you people are too funny.

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

You just confirmed what I thought, another moron spouting the same crap over and over, clearly you didn't read my post, as I've mentioned several times I don't spam wrecking blow, I stopped using it after my first days in pvp as it gets me killed more than anything,

Tell me this, if it's soooo amazing, soooo powerful and it's too expensive to block/dodge.

Why oh why everytime I ever use it I can't get a single kill? Why every time that I've ever used it it gets blocked/dodged or I get walked through? Why do I, and the people I know never get killed by it?

9/10 times wrecking blow doesn't animation cancel, it actually cancels the entire attack?

The only people in this thread moaning are the ones that need to l2p, as clearly many other millions of players are getting on just fine with blocking/dodging and avoiding the attack.

Oh and uninterruptible? So using your own cc doesn't cancel it? Using another knockdown doesn't cancel it?

Sigh...

Well if your using 2h and not using wb, unless your a nb then your going wrong.

Yes wb can be animation cancelled and yes the whole attack animation will stop. So no it's not 9/10 times it just 9/10 for you because it clear you don't know how to do it. I'd be happy to teach you.

Wb has a 5m range on it so you don't need to literally be so close to someone that they can't walk through you, the actual skill range is a lot larger than the weapon size. Hence why it hits through dodge roll unless they dodge through you.

Interruptible e.g. interrupt skills not working on it (crushing show, psn arrow) and you can't bash it, using cc or other isn't 'interrupting' that is using cc skills and them hitting first. Every other charge skill can be interrupted, hence why there is interrupt skills in the game in the first place.

Dude you are too funny... you are arguing that wrecking blow is op but giving a player a tip on how to use wrecking blow better. Yes you can weave a heavy attack into the cast time of wrecking blow, but you cannot cancel or cut short the wind up animation of wrecking blow because that will cancel the entire attack. You are trying to correct him by telling him if he uses wrecking blow he can weave in an extra heavy attack, meanwhile you are not addressing the 1.3 second cast time that cannot be cut short, and cannot be canceled. the swing animation is what you are clipping when you weave a heavy attack and yes it makes wrecking blow do more damage, but please explain your way past that cast time or address how you intend to actually hit someone who knows what they are doing. Any skill that requires a cast time in a fast paced pvp is a liability. ..the reason good players say wrecking blow is a noob skill is because pve players are used to owning with it, but they are in for a rude awakening when they encounter skilled players who are not going to stand there and be hit by the glorified heavy attack. No good player gets hit by it, ever. Most will block, or dodge but they will not get hit with it, so what does it matter that you can weave an extra attack in if you can only use the skill against bad players who will allow you to cast a skill that requires time in close range. You can't be the player getting hit by wrecking blow and call that guy hitting you with it a scrub....you literally just went on about how much skill it takes to weave in a heavy attack. ....lol...you people are too funny.

You can't properly 'dodge' a wb, only if you dodge through the player otherwise it will hit.

You cancel the animation of the wb, your sword moves down then your character will just start a heavy attack. People don't even expect the wb.

Yes someone can block but a wb+HA weave will completely drain any magicka users stamina, a simple cc is an easy kill.

It's really not difficult to wb someone... even simply cc'ing them will let you hit them with that 1s cast time... it's not difficult.

The wb dmg needs nerfing and it shouldn't buff it's own dmg.

Zsymon wrote: »

Just because a skill gets used a lot, doesn't mean it's overpowered, there is a gigantic difference. In this case it just means many stamina builds simply don't have anything else. Only Templars and Nightblades get an alternative, while Sorcerers and Dragonknights only have Wrecking Blow.

For stamplars only alternative is jabs, only nightblades have bigger choice. Problem is that there aren't single target stamina abilities to choose from(templars have only 3 stamina morphs...)

many stamina builds simply don't have anything else

That it's so *** true if you want to go melee you don't have many single target abilities to choose from.

zornyan wrote: »

Do you agree that the following need nerfing too then

Crystal frags proc
Snipe
Jesus beam
Biting jabs
Heavy fire staff attacks
Dual wield weapon damage
Ambush
Suprise attack

As these abilities all hit just as hard, if not much much harder, with most being insta cast.

In order:

Frags - Nope it's a projectile, does less dmg than wb, proc's with a 1 in 3 chance, can easily be blocked, dodged (don't need to go through the person), reflected and is easily visible and travels quite slow. It's also very obvious when it's going to be cast as the glowing purple hands are a give away.

Snipe - Yes, for some reason despite it being the skill with the furthest range in the game that does dmg (over 50m in cyrodiil) , it also pacts very high dmg and is easily spammed, the actual arrow needs to be more visible because it's hard to see when fighting and the only indication you get is a sound effect when it hits, this skill needs a higher cast time or the dmg tuning down as you shouldn't be able to spam 10k arrows from 50m away.

Biting jabs - Nope, it shouldn't go through block but it's not as annoying as wb, it's not a cc that buff's itself either. So it's not close to wb.

Jesus beam - this has been nerfed to now people have to use it as an actual executioner.

Heavy fire attacks - these take so long to use, can be dodged, blocked, travel slowly and with the molten arm nerf most people won't use it, so no. If someone uses heavy fire attacks and doesn't medium weave that they are losing a lot of dps anyway.

Dual wield - Why does this need a nerf? The 5% extra from the passives isn't exactly gamebreaker, if magicka user do this then they lose the ability to light/medium weave from range, lose the interrupt, the spell penetration, the magicka on kill, etc.... Not really worth it, not many stam build use it for pvp either because the 2h line is so much stronger, highest dmging gap closer, one of the best executes, Wb (insanely op) , rally a really good heal with a secondary effect of boosting wpn dmg by 20% for 30 seconds and can be self cast.

Ambush - The stun on this skill is annoying because 1s means you'll stop any attacks your going to do but most of the time you won't be able to break the cc and get immunity. Maybe something to stop people spamming it for the stun or such? maybe a 4m-22m like most of gap closers.

Surprise attack - Hmm this ability isn't too bad, but the 8k armor debuff is going to be strong in 1.7 because of the penetration bug fix and i have no idea why a single ability does high dmg, stuns, knocks off balance and has the highest armour debuff that lasts for 12 seconds all in 1 skill. Maybe lose an effect?

PsychoKRATOS1 wrote: »

I keep seeing "DK's have no stamina morphs" do these people mean DK's have no worthwhile stamina morphs? Ooor? (Or do you just mean... what else am I supposed to use with 2H?)

DK's only, to my knowledge, have two, but still:

Searing strike -> unstable flame
Fiery breath -> burning breath

Wrecking blow + wrecking blows 20% extra dam next WB hit + heavy weapons passive + executioners extra damage to low health. That's a lot of bonuses to the skill. I'm not bashing it, far from, there are far more powerful abilities, especially if critical hits come into play.

Crystal fragments plus it's ever proccing insta cast, hidden blade and a night blades critical rating (usually high), and I find wrecking blow does even more damage (could be a placebo effect) when I have flames of oblivion active. Heavy attacks with both FOO and igneous weapons do me good too. Meteor and Dawn breaker (flawless dawn breaker increases attack power of WB too right?)

I use sword n board n 2H. Used to use 2H and DW. But I like being tankier.
Still viable to use deso and restoration staff with a dk right?

Use desto + reso is your magicka

Stamina usually use 2h + bow.

Though some use 2h+S+B