Ha ha ha.... I can tell you exactly why this Avoidance Meta exists. Many players (including me) hate losing stones more than we love gaining them!

If it weren't for the corpse-looting mechanic, I would probably enjoy ESO's PvP for the first time EVER, thanks to the instant respawns and quick returns to fighting. ZOS did the ONE thing they needed to make PvP fast and fun... but then they BLEW IT by giving us a reason to AVOID fighting.

/facepalm

Yeah, I have 4 VR14+ characters and a couple in the 40s range, and it always takes me forever to get them geared up, so I doubt they will have any better gear than they do now for a few months at least, so there is no point for them to live in IC. I finished the main PvE storyline with one character and have a between 1/3 to 1/2 of the sewers completed with the same toon.

I am in no rush to finish IC with all of my high rank vets, but, when I go to the main map, there is nothing going on. I am sure this will pass, but if there is any organized PvP outside of IC I will definitely try to make it. I guess I will keep tabs on this thread to see what comes up.

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Ha ha ha.... I can tell you exactly why this Avoidance Meta exists. Many players (including me) hate losing stones more than we love gaining them!

If it weren't for the corpse-looting mechanic, I would probably enjoy ESO's PvP for the first time EVER, thanks to the instant respawns and quick returns to fighting. ZOS did the ONE thing they needed to make PvP fast and fun... but then they BLEW IT by giving us a reason to AVOID fighting.

/facepalm

I'm not really concerned about what the PvE players are doing, since you're not actually there to fight other players and don't have the builds or PvP experience to make good opponents. Nothing wrong with that, of course! My only concern is that there's no way to coax those who are there for PvP out of their hidey-holes and get consistent good battles going on. On overland Cyro you can go take a resource, flag a keep, that sort of thing to let other guilds and PvPers know where you are and where the action is. But what can you do in Imperial City? Until ZOS implements tools for that, we PvPers need to coordinate with each other for fights. I'm confident that ZOS will come through with something soon, because they knew what they were doing when making Cyro as far as objectives and incentives go, but it's clear that until then we need to work it out on our own.

Recremen wrote: »

Psilent wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

It's difficult NOT to PvE in that zone. There are mobs everywhere and even using single target skills you are going to hit mobs because of they get in the way.

100% ^ this

In the districts I think there has been only 1 fight I've had where npcs didnt come and kill my enemy or me, i don't really call that pvp when a NPC is sitting there hitting us for 7-10k damage every light attack.

I like having some Hostile-To-All NPC's around to spice things up in contrast to overworld Cyro, but yeah the 7-10k light attacks are gross when you're trying to fight other people, never mind the superpowered sweepers roaming the area who take you out in two ticks of their AOE even if you have loads of points in health, spell resistance, etc. It feels like they were expecting large zergs to be duking it out with purges running constantly while Molag Bal has his fist tickling your tonsils and both the other factions are in the same boat. But with pop caps as they are, with a huge number of PvEers taking up population and trying to avoid fights, and with no PvP goals to help coax out the fighting spirit in others, it's a little difficult.

The most PvP I've seen was Zazeer running around in the Arena last night with a giant group, and I think they were fighting a giant blue group or something, or maybe just a few blue puggles trying to do the quest there. Even that looked like it was short lived, nothing like the constant fighting I was hoping for in the IC.

I was with Zazeer, we had 8 in our group. The DC in the arena had at least a full 24 players in their group, if not more. I ended up pulling the sweeper boss into them to wipe them.

@mjspnrb18_ESO

Ha ha, good stuff. Were there pugs following you? I'm confident I saw more than 8 huddled in the Arena (like inside the actual gates of the building) but for all I know it was just tagalongs. Can you pass word to your guild leads that there are some AD PvPers looking for nights with lots of actual PvP action?

We were going all over the place to try and find good fights, but all we found were either groups of 24+, we had 8, or small 1 to 3 players grinding.

Yes, there were I think 3 or 4 pugs in the actual arena. We also had one guy that we ran into while going through the sewers, who stayed with us a long time, but was never in the group.

Just gonna put it out there but emp pop is by far the best source of stones. Easily 10-15k an hour. Was running around w/ 20k stones for a while last night just killing all the pve mobs I saw and then when I saw a group would just nuke them. However, I realize not everyone can be emp so I would have to say that farming pve mobs was the best way to earn stones in my experience

asneakybanana wrote: »

Just gonna put it out there but emp pop is by far the best source of stones. Easily 10-15k an hour. Was running around w/ 20k stones for a while last night just killing all the pve mobs I saw and then when I saw a group would just nuke them. However, I realize not everyone can be emp so I would have to say that farming pve mobs was the best way to earn stones in my experience

Stones have very little value. I have played like 2 days, and have all my gear expect 2 pieces of jewelry, which I could get in a night whenever I decide to.

Stikato wrote: »

Gate access.

IC is not designed for constant fighting. It's original design is to be a pve reward zone for successful pvp. That also featured occasional pvp encounters.

You can see this still in the sewers, due to the stretched out design that creates enough distance for this dynamic to occur. The streets are a clusterF, and I am not seeing people that are really enjoying themselves up there as compared to sewers or Cyrodiil. There are just too many people.

And, Cyrodiil is too quiet. There takes a certain number of people being there, that supports other people being there to fight them. I could log on wanting 100% to only pvp in Cyrodiil, but if I can't find a fight after 5-10 minutes, I'm going to leave. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Gate access. This past week proves IC will function as the dynamic population control that low-pop alliances are worried about. If people can go to IC, they will abandon Cyrodiil.

If it were a subscription model I could see gating access being a good plan, but it's been debated to death and I agree with everyone that in as much as it's a DLC and tied intrinsically to gear progression for all types of players, it's a bad plan to just gate access for the time being. I'm not really sure why you're saying it's not designed for constant fighting, though. In its present state one of the main features of the districts (instant respawn) is entirely facilitative to that end. It's clear that there are other things to do and ways to play the content such as with the sewers, but it's a little peculiar to just deny the capacity for constant fighting.

All that said, come fight me!! Fight might guild! Fight my pig!!! That's the point of the thread!

G0ku wrote: »

PvP is a mess. Most (not all) PvP´ers are hiding behind big numbers cleaning whole areas in a rampage. It´s their own fault all mentally sane persons will avoid this.

- camping the respawn balcony´s in the city districts

- waiting in front of the gates that immunity wears off of entering players

- hinding your zerg in front of the entrance of a safe-zone because you know people have to get in there for a quest

- killing players over and over again even if you don´t get any tv or ap

- and the list goes on.

You made your own mess now enjoy it. Btw I´m no way butthurt just a merely observer, doing just fine in IC.

I can't tell if you're strictly making things up to badmouth PvPers or if you're conflating your own experiences and perceptions with the whole of reality. Please advise.

Good post OP, you guys asked for this PvP so go and enjoy it and the one's crying over losing your stones! This is exactly what you guys wanted all these years for PvP to mean something, well NOW IT DOES!

ugh I should've went with my gut and buy MGS 5 instead of the 5500 crowns

Recremen wrote: »

Stikato wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Stikato wrote: »

Gate access.

IC is not designed for constant fighting. It's original design is to be a pve reward zone for successful pvp. That also featured occasional pvp encounters.

You can see this still in the sewers, due to the stretched out design that creates enough distance for this dynamic to occur. The streets are a clusterF, and I am not seeing people that are really enjoying themselves up there as compared to sewers or Cyrodiil. There are just too many people.

And, Cyrodiil is too quiet. There takes a certain number of people being there, that supports other people being there to fight them. I could log on wanting 100% to only pvp in Cyrodiil, but if I can't find a fight after 5-10 minutes, I'm going to leave. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Gate access. This past week proves IC will function as the dynamic population control that low-pop alliances are worried about. If people can go to IC, they will abandon Cyrodiil.

If it were a subscription model I could see gating access being a good plan, but it's been debated to death and I agree with everyone that in as much as it's a DLC and tied intrinsically to gear progression for all types of players, it's a bad plan to just gate access for the time being. I'm not really sure why you're saying it's not designed for constant fighting, though. In its present state one of the main features of the districts (instant respawn) is entirely facilitative to that end. It's clear that there are other things to do and ways to play the content such as with the sewers, but it's a little peculiar to just deny the capacity for constant fighting.

All that said, come fight me!! Fight might guild! Fight my pig!!! That's the point of the thread!

What I mean is, the design of the upper zones, the layout, the mob placement, quest design etc. was designed with the original gated access intention. This is why, with everyone in IC, playing in the upper districts and trying to accomplish anything is very frustrating.

I'm not arguing with you. I want the same thing you do, I want to pvp again like before. That will only occur with limiting access to IC. It won't happen with a thread.

What you need to realize is, this IS the game now. Its not going to magically change back to where everyone wants to be in Cyrodiil. So unless fundamental changes are made, get used to it.

EDIT: Re-reading OP, I see that you want mass pvp in the IC to start. Like you said, the meta is pvp avoidance now. There just aren't the keeps, scrolls, and resources in IC to make it interesting. There is literally nothing to fight for. Fighting is not only unproductive, it is anti-productive. This is what I am trying to explain, in that it was not designed for what you want it to be.** It is a pve reward zone with occasional pvp. It is never going anything more, no matter how many people are crammed inside.

EDIT2: Meaning, this was not the initial design intent. It was designed to make Cyrodiil better, not to replace it. But ZOS caved to forum whiners, gave open access, and here we are.

While I agree with your assessment of the initial design intent (it was after all explicitly stated to be modeled after Darkness Falls or whatever the other project was), I don't agree that gating access is the only way to encourage PvP again, and I am very against the suggestion that players have no ability to organize fights. For example, there's no dueling or instanced PvP, but players came together and organized guilds dedicated to dueling and guild-v-guild combat in open-world Cyro. There isn't some mystic barrier preventing us from doing the same regarding IC, the only real struggle is population cap since we also have to house pure PvEers in the instance. I am willing to take these content refugees in, but we must come together as a community to make it work until they get their new zone to collect resources in.

I hear people in other PvP guilds say all the time that "we're not here to ruin people's fun, we just want good fights." I am confident that they are willing to put those claims to the test. The mechanics and meta are simply not in place right now for fighting to happen spontaneously and frequently, so I'd rather get the ball rolling right now to self-organize instead of wait around for someone else to get sufficiently bored&motivated to do it.

In that case, I wish you the best of luck with your efforts! I only wished to state my opinion on why things are the way they are.

Stikato wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Stikato wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Stikato wrote: »

Gate access.

IC is not designed for constant fighting. It's original design is to be a pve reward zone for successful pvp. That also featured occasional pvp encounters.

You can see this still in the sewers, due to the stretched out design that creates enough distance for this dynamic to occur. The streets are a clusterF, and I am not seeing people that are really enjoying themselves up there as compared to sewers or Cyrodiil. There are just too many people.

And, Cyrodiil is too quiet. There takes a certain number of people being there, that supports other people being there to fight them. I could log on wanting 100% to only pvp in Cyrodiil, but if I can't find a fight after 5-10 minutes, I'm going to leave. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Gate access. This past week proves IC will function as the dynamic population control that low-pop alliances are worried about. If people can go to IC, they will abandon Cyrodiil.

If it were a subscription model I could see gating access being a good plan, but it's been debated to death and I agree with everyone that in as much as it's a DLC and tied intrinsically to gear progression for all types of players, it's a bad plan to just gate access for the time being. I'm not really sure why you're saying it's not designed for constant fighting, though. In its present state one of the main features of the districts (instant respawn) is entirely facilitative to that end. It's clear that there are other things to do and ways to play the content such as with the sewers, but it's a little peculiar to just deny the capacity for constant fighting.

All that said, come fight me!! Fight might guild! Fight my pig!!! That's the point of the thread!

What I mean is, the design of the upper zones, the layout, the mob placement, quest design etc. was designed with the original gated access intention. This is why, with everyone in IC, playing in the upper districts and trying to accomplish anything is very frustrating.

I'm not arguing with you. I want the same thing you do, I want to pvp again like before. That will only occur with limiting access to IC. It won't happen with a thread.

What you need to realize is, this IS the game now. Its not going to magically change back to where everyone wants to be in Cyrodiil. So unless fundamental changes are made, get used to it.

EDIT: Re-reading OP, I see that you want mass pvp in the IC to start. Like you said, the meta is pvp avoidance now. There just aren't the keeps, scrolls, and resources in IC to make it interesting. There is literally nothing to fight for. Fighting is not only unproductive, it is anti-productive. This is what I am trying to explain, in that it was not designed for what you want it to be.** It is a pve reward zone with occasional pvp. It is never going anything more, no matter how many people are crammed inside.

EDIT2: Meaning, this was not the initial design intent. It was designed to make Cyrodiil better, not to replace it. But ZOS caved to forum whiners, gave open access, and here we are.

While I agree with your assessment of the initial design intent (it was after all explicitly stated to be modeled after Darkness Falls or whatever the other project was), I don't agree that gating access is the only way to encourage PvP again, and I am very against the suggestion that players have no ability to organize fights. For example, there's no dueling or instanced PvP, but players came together and organized guilds dedicated to dueling and guild-v-guild combat in open-world Cyro. There isn't some mystic barrier preventing us from doing the same regarding IC, the only real struggle is population cap since we also have to house pure PvEers in the instance. I am willing to take these content refugees in, but we must come together as a community to make it work until they get their new zone to collect resources in.

I hear people in other PvP guilds say all the time that "we're not here to ruin people's fun, we just want good fights." I am confident that they are willing to put those claims to the test. The mechanics and meta are simply not in place right now for fighting to happen spontaneously and frequently, so I'd rather get the ball rolling right now to self-organize instead of wait around for someone else to get sufficiently bored&motivated to do it.

In that case, I wish you the best of luck with your efforts! I only wished to state my opinion on why things are the way they are.

Thank ya! I definitely don't disagree with your reasoning re: why things are in their present state, btw, it's entirely sound logic, I just think that there are multiple approaches they could use beyond gating access to solve the problem.

RDMyers65b14_ESO wrote: »

One of the first people who I recognized from the kill recap was Men'do and I was thinking what a rotten thing for a RPer to do to another RPer. Now, I am learning how to Jesus beam ... En guarde, cat. :-)

The most devoted RPers do this out of Love, that you too many Reach Heaven By Violence!!

Recremen wrote: »

G0ku wrote: »

PvP is a mess. Most (not all) PvP´ers are hiding behind big numbers cleaning whole areas in a rampage. It´s their own fault all mentally sane persons will avoid this.

- camping the respawn balcony´s in the city districts

- waiting in front of the gates that immunity wears off of entering players

- hinding your zerg in front of the entrance of a safe-zone because you know people have to get in there for a quest

- killing players over and over again even if you don´t get any tv or ap

- and the list goes on.

You made your own mess now enjoy it. Btw I´m no way butthurt just a merely observer, doing just fine in IC.

I can't tell if you're strictly making things up to badmouth PvPers or if you're conflating your own experiences and perceptions with the whole of reality. Please advise.

Those things are not made up but things I experienced myself while leveling my pve twinks. They are not geared for pvp so I did not even bother trying to fight other players. Just doing the quests for xp and looting mobs for mats.

I play the whole game not strictly PvP or PvE but both and I would see myself a tiny little above average in both.

So I do not badmouth anyone but one thing - and please don´t pick one because those who I badmouth go combined: zergs which use their numbers for the sole purpose of farming solo, duo, trio players. It seems to be their declared goal to go especially for those. And these people cause the avoidance of other players to pvp. I can read it the whole day in my trade and pve guilds, it´s not a solo experience.


Battles zerg vs zerg even in IC are epic (to watch and to fight) but the things I described in my post are real and happen on a daily basis.

The following could be conflation of personally experience: zergs following the pve crowd. Every time a new campaign popped up you could go in IC and it was a joy: you could do pve and I had really good fights, 1v1, 3v3, 4v4, 8v8. They fought when they met each other and did not wait at the spawn point to instantly fight you. They would stalk you until they were sure you had some tv on you. At some point pvp guilds realised easy EMP was on the line for them. They changed campaign, took emp and booom went into the sewers and guess what they did....

I still remember the discussions before IC launched: pvp crowd telling pve crowd to swallow the toad and accept it. Even a green post appeared that told pve´ers to accept that pvp´er got the love this time. This is the way of a pure PvEer to accept it: they avoid you because they don´t want to pvp but guess what - they still need the mats because glorious ZOS send in the dlc with a vet raise (imo - tinfoil hat on - a clear sign it was already near ready before TU was announced and the vet raise already implemented).

And not only a vet raise but a vet nerf by pushing all VR14 gear back to VR12 status. If they did not do that

- pve´ers had no need to go to IC because there would be nothing outside IC they need the V16 gear for
- pvp´ers would be among themselves in IC and there would be no avoidance

But that could not happen because of $$$

G0ku wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

G0ku wrote: »

PvP is a mess. Most (not all) PvP´ers are hiding behind big numbers cleaning whole areas in a rampage. It´s their own fault all mentally sane persons will avoid this.

- camping the respawn balcony´s in the city districts

- waiting in front of the gates that immunity wears off of entering players

- hinding your zerg in front of the entrance of a safe-zone because you know people have to get in there for a quest

- killing players over and over again even if you don´t get any tv or ap

- and the list goes on.

You made your own mess now enjoy it. Btw I´m no way butthurt just a merely observer, doing just fine in IC.

I can't tell if you're strictly making things up to badmouth PvPers or if you're conflating your own experiences and perceptions with the whole of reality. Please advise.

Those things are not made up but things I experienced myself while leveling my pve twinks. They are not geared for pvp so I did not even bother trying to fight other players. Just doing the quests for xp and looting mobs for mats.

I play the whole game not strictly PvP or PvE but both and I would see myself a tiny little above average in both.

So I do not badmouth anyone but one thing - and please don´t pick one because those who I badmouth go combined: zergs which use their numbers for the sole purpose of farming solo, duo, trio players. It seems to be their declared goal to go especially for those. And these people cause the avoidance of other players to pvp. I can read it the whole day in my trade and pve guilds, it´s not a solo experience.


Battles zerg vs zerg even in IC are epic (to watch and to fight) but the things I described in my post are real and happen on a daily basis.

The following could be conflation of personally experience: zergs following the pve crowd. Every time a new campaign popped up you could go in IC and it was a joy: you could do pve and I had really good fights, 1v1, 3v3, 4v4, 8v8. They fought when they met each other and did not wait at the spawn point to instantly fight you. They would stalk you until they were sure you had some tv on you. At some point pvp guilds realised easy EMP was on the line for them. They changed campaign, took emp and booom went into the sewers and guess what they did....

I still remember the discussions before IC launched: pvp crowd telling pve crowd to swallow the toad and accept it. Even a green post appeared that told pve´ers to accept that pvp´er got the love this time. This is the way of a pure PvEer to accept it: they avoid you because they don´t want to pvp but guess what - they still need the mats because glorious ZOS send in the dlc with a vet raise (imo - tinfoil hat on - a clear sign it was already near ready before TU was announced and the vet raise already implemented).

And not only a vet raise but a vet nerf by pushing all VR14 gear back to VR12 status. If they did not do that

- pve´ers had no need to go to IC because there would be nothing outside IC they need the V16 gear for
- pvp´ers would be among themselves in IC and there would be no avoidance

But that could not happen because of $$$

Ah okay, I thought it was something like that. To clarify: zergs are not capable of singling out/going after specific types of players. Zerg behavior is characterized not by premeditated action, but by continuous opportunism. In the Imperial City, zerg behavior is to move around roughly in the direction of the leader, sometimes in a loop (especially if one has been made popular on forums and other social media) and sometimes in a line towards a destination, such as the sewer center. They aren't hunting for solo/small group players, but if they spot one they will all try to "get a hit in" on them because it is already assumed the opponents will be defeated and they just want their spot on the loot list.

Organized groups have the organizational capacity to hunt specifically for small groups and overwhelm them with numbers, but I have never heard of a guild being that sadistic. It is likely instead that they are looking for fights, and that they won't turn down an easy one if they come across it.