Tel Var System Needs Changes Immediately

Svartulv · September 2015

Completely agree that 80% of loosing the stones is too much.
I earned about 300 stones according to achievements, but I have only ~60 of them really, and I'm not happy with it.

Yes, if you alone/in a small group, it's not a problem to avoid zergs but sometimes you can't really react on sudden attacks and you loose almost all the stones. This definitely should be changed, at least to loosing only 50% of stones.

Derra · September 2015

I think 50% losses would be fine - coming from a pvp player that does not enjoy running around stealthed or with grps exceeding 6 people. I think the system pushes people towards zerging...

Palidon · September 2015

In my opinion any gear or stones accumulated in IC should not be lost. It is hard to survive in the IC solo or even in small groups. I enjoy the challenge and competition but I don't enjoy loosing hard earned stones and gear. Not to mention crafting materials should of been on the same guidelines as all the others when ESO first came out. They were easily available if you went out and looked for them. Now ZOS has made many of the new mats so rare you have a 1 in 75 chance of finding any or they cost an arm and a leg to purchase. Same goes for the new motifs.

Sharee · September 2015

Svartulv wrote: »

Completely agree that 80% of loosing the stones is too much.
I earned about 300 stones according to achievements, but I have only ~60 of them really, and I'm not happy with it.

Yes, if you alone/in a small group, it's not a problem to avoid zergs but sometimes you can't really react on sudden attacks and you loose almost all the stones. This definitely should be changed, at least to loosing only 50% of stones.

The reason why you cannot only lose 50% of stones is that it would make the risk/reward system of stone multiplier not work. The system is supposed to reward you if you are willing to risk losing more to a gank(by carrying more stones on you), by gain more from farming.

Think about it. If you do not use a 2x multiplier, you are willingly losing 50% of the stones you could have otherwise. Gain 100 stones, and you basically lost another 100 due to playing it safe.

If you instead went for 2x multiplier(by carrying more stones on you), you are risking getting ganked and losing the same 50% of stones. So no difference.

However, you do not always get ganked, which makes the second option a no-brainer. Everyone would always use the 2x multiplier, because it is better when you are not ganked, and the same if you are ganked.

(for 3x and 4x multiplier it is even more pronounced)

Jeckll · September 2015

Derra wrote: »

I think 50% losses would be fine - coming from a pvp player that does not enjoy running around stealthed or with grps exceeding 6 people. I think the system pushes people towards zerging...

I still dont get that statement. When I run around in zergs, TV Stones are shared with the other people but unlike normal zerging for AP, the amount of TV Stones you get from running around in a zerg greatly diminishes as soon as you have killed a target once.

In a normal zerg, you run from point a to b, back to a and repeat, killing randoms and small groups. When you do that for TV stones, it's super inefficiant. Because after killing a guy once, you basicly get NOTHING for the second kill. That's why I think in the long run, zerging will not be interested for the most players as players always tend to go the fastest route and only really weak players will need a zerg to get some stones while strong players probably prefer to run solo or in small groups.

It will take a while before everyone realises this, but as soon as it clicks, it will work out automatically.

Freeman · September 2015

Just going to leave this here. Some of you could do well to read it:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/212691/l2p-imperial-city-like-a-boss-tips-and-tricks

It's really annoying to see people be stubborn and whining when they're killed. It happens. Learn from it. Adjust your skills/build. Your all PvE builds won't work out so well in IC if you encounter other players. You need escapes. You need utility skills. Keep adjusting until you figure out what works. This is entirely different kind of content than what's been in the game so far, so adjust accordingly. Different content requires different thinking and different strategy.

Alcast · September 2015

It sucks pretty much running around in a 4man grp and then getting stomped over by a 20man zerg and loose all(80%) your TS.
But well, I guess zerg up or gtfo

Jeckll · September 2015

Alcast wrote: »

It sucks pretty much running around in a 4man grp and then getting stomped over by a 20man zerg and loose all your TS.

It sucks pretty much running around solo and then getting stomped over by a 4man group and lose all your TS.
But it rocks pretty much running around solo and then stomping over a 4man group and win all their TS.

Tankqull · September 2015

Selique wrote: »

I like it the way it is. I don't think it needs changing. Use tactics, and bank often.

not disagreeing here but they need to fix the incombat flag - beeing unable to port for 1,5 hour while trying to hide from a 30man zerg sucks balls...

CP5 · September 2015

Sharee wrote: »

Svartulv wrote: »

Completely agree that 80% of loosing the stones is too much.
I earned about 300 stones according to achievements, but I have only ~60 of them really, and I'm not happy with it.

Yes, if you alone/in a small group, it's not a problem to avoid zergs but sometimes you can't really react on sudden attacks and you loose almost all the stones. This definitely should be changed, at least to loosing only 50% of stones.

The reason why you cannot only lose 50% of stones is that it would make the risk/reward system of stone multiplier not work. The system is supposed to reward you if you are willing to risk losing more to a gank(by carrying more stones on you), by gain more from farming.

Think about it. If you do not use a 2x multiplier, you are willingly losing 50% of the stones you could have otherwise. Gain 100 stones, and you basically lost another 100 due to playing it safe.

If you instead went for 2x multiplier(by carrying more stones on you), you are risking getting ganked and losing the same 50% of stones. So no difference.

However, you do not always get ganked, which makes the second option a no-brainer. Everyone would always use the 2x multiplier, because it is better when you are not ganked, and the same if you are ganked.

(for 3x and 4x multiplier it is even more pronounced)

There is no increased risk with a higher multiplier aside from the larger flat number of stones lost. If the loss rate was 20-25% and was multiplied by whatever multiplier you had active then it would be risk vs reward and people who don't want to risk much could just stay at low values fine.

Troneon · September 2015

Simple fix is if you are killed by more than 5 players, you only lose 10%, if you are killed by less than 5 players you lose 80%.

Or something like that.

This will make zerging even more pointless.

Also remove any AP rewards from zerging in IC.

Sharee · September 2015

CP5 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Svartulv wrote: »

Completely agree that 80% of loosing the stones is too much.
I earned about 300 stones according to achievements, but I have only ~60 of them really, and I'm not happy with it.

Yes, if you alone/in a small group, it's not a problem to avoid zergs but sometimes you can't really react on sudden attacks and you loose almost all the stones. This definitely should be changed, at least to loosing only 50% of stones.

The reason why you cannot only lose 50% of stones is that it would make the risk/reward system of stone multiplier not work. The system is supposed to reward you if you are willing to risk losing more to a gank(by carrying more stones on you), by gain more from farming.

Think about it. If you do not use a 2x multiplier, you are willingly losing 50% of the stones you could have otherwise. Gain 100 stones, and you basically lost another 100 due to playing it safe.

If you instead went for 2x multiplier(by carrying more stones on you), you are risking getting ganked and losing the same 50% of stones. So no difference.

However, you do not always get ganked, which makes the second option a no-brainer. Everyone would always use the 2x multiplier, because it is better when you are not ganked, and the same if you are ganked.

(for 3x and 4x multiplier it is even more pronounced)

There is no increased risk with a higher multiplier aside from the larger flat number of stones lost. If the loss rate was 20-25% and was multiplied by whatever multiplier you had active then it would be risk vs reward and people who don't want to risk much could just stay at low values fine.

If the loss was 25% multiplied by the stone multiplier, like you say, there would be no reason not to use 2x.

With 1x, you would be losing 50% of your stones, always (as you gather them).
With 2x, you would lose 50% of your stones, but not always, only when ganked. So why stay with 1x(and a guaranteed 50% loss) when you can go 2x (and only lose 50% in case of a gank)?

Hope499 · September 2015

Sandmanninja wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

jluceyub17_ESO wrote: »

it makes it impossible/stupid to play in small groups/solo

Are you saying you go into the bowels of a city ravaged by war and powerful hordes of daedra alone and expect to be able to do well? Do you think it makes sense for them to design a game where you can do that and succeed?

I think for a frickin' sub price, they should make the damn new content...you know... playable.

YES, I realise this is an MMO.
BUT
What about people that can't find a good guild or a guild with members that are active at the same time as themselves?

Start looking harder.

Go to any major populated city and ASK, you will get a ton of invites. (Grhatwood...)

Sorry, almost all MMO games have raids/areas that are meant for group play, and are very difficult....Get used to dying, or get a group.

Pangnirtung · September 2015

JDar wrote: »

Are you saying you go into the bowels of a city ravaged by war and powerful hordes of daedra alone and expect to be able to do well? Do you think it makes sense for them to design a game where you can do that and succeed?

Why not lose armor and weapons to make it more exciting just like in the old days of UO?

I think that it has been proven over the years that a big part of MMOs is accumulating toys and NOT losing them.

There will always be those that enjoy the risk/reward of losing everything but I do believe that they are in the minority.

Tan9oSuccka · September 2015

Thanks again for play testing the DLC. PC Master race!

Saved me a bunch of cash.

From what I've read, DLC that encourages zerg, ganking, trolling and generally being a jerk for Tel-Var stones.

Lionxoft · September 2015

Sharee wrote: »

AshTal wrote: »

I know its early days but right now its hard to move 10 feet without being hit by a zerg group or a NB stealthing NPCs.

Out in the districts, yes. But I have not seen a single enemy player in the first few rooms in front of my alliance base (in the sewers) during the time i was playing yesterday. They were full of friendlies tho, and i assume any enemy daring to stick his nose in there got promptly zerged back out.

You aren't playing the same game as me then. I walk out of the base and see 30+ red camping lol. They aren't even gaining many stones I'd imagine. They are attempting to just grief players entering or exiting the city which is ultimately a problem.

Robbmrp · September 2015

So far I think I've lost about 3-500 maybe. A guy in our guild last night killed someone and got 5k stones from 1 guy...There are going to be a ton of PO'd people in there for sure.....

zornyan · September 2015

Zergs will die out soon, you're average zerger earns about 1k stones an hour, solo/small groups are earning 10-15k an hour.

Literially a soloer could earn 100k in a day, where as a zerger would be lucky to get 10k.

When people realise this they will form more smaller groups, otherwise they're getting pretty much zero rewards anyway.

It's new, give it time, people are also probably afraid of not being in a zerg, this will die down too

ShadowHvo · September 2015

Absolutely not, finally there is some actual risk in the game, something it has dearly been missing since launch, keep it the way it is.

Sallington · September 2015

I've been having fun solo, in small gorups, and in a full 12+-man group. You can rack up TVs very quickly solo, with very minimal risk.

The name of the game in IC is situational awareness. If you run around all willy nilly killing mobs, you WILL die to an enemy player if you are not aware of your surroundings.

Know what districts are home to what factions, know that walking into a room full of dead mobs means that someone was there VERY recently, always have an escape route, sneak, etc. Just because TVs aren't handed to you on a silver platter the way most PvE content hands you stuff doesn't mean the system needs to be fixed. The system right now is excellent.

nordsavage · September 2015

Who dares wins and be prepared are two mottos to take into this content. Play it safe in small squads and be rolling thunder when you are in a large column.

Preyfar · September 2015

Svartulv wrote: »

Completely agree that 80% of loosing the stones is too much.
I earned about 300 stones according to achievements, but I have only ~60 of them really, and I'm not happy with it.

Yes, if you alone/in a small group, it's not a problem to avoid zergs but sometimes you can't really react on sudden attacks and you loose almost all the stones. This definitely should be changed, at least to loosing only 50% of stones.

I was with a group of about 8 people... and got mowed down by about 20 people who just ran in doing nothing but AOEs. But they time we could react we got hit by the train. Heh.

But at the same time, I'm hesitant to say nerf it yet. IC is new, every is surging through and the popular is ridiculously high. We're at the peak of the content's interest. It'll die down a bit. And yes, it is frustrating, but make sure to bank the stones early and often.

Sharee · September 2015

Lionxoft wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

AshTal wrote: »

I know its early days but right now its hard to move 10 feet without being hit by a zerg group or a NB stealthing NPCs.

Out in the districts, yes. But I have not seen a single enemy player in the first few rooms in front of my alliance base (in the sewers) during the time i was playing yesterday. They were full of friendlies tho, and i assume any enemy daring to stick his nose in there got promptly zerged back out.

They are attempting to just grief players entering or exiting the city which is ultimately a problem.

It is hard to grief players wanting to exit IC base into IC itself by blocking them considering there are seven separate exits from it. The path back can be blocked, but such a block can be bypassed for a 10% stone cost by simply suiciding, or (if you have really many stones on you) by using the teleport stone.

vaagventje17eb17_ESO · September 2015

Jeckll wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I think 50% losses would be fine - coming from a pvp player that does not enjoy running around stealthed or with grps exceeding 6 people. I think the system pushes people towards zerging...

I still dont get that statement. When I run around in zergs, TV Stones are shared with the other people but unlike normal zerging for AP, the amount of TV Stones you get from running around in a zerg greatly diminishes as soon as you have killed a target once.

In a normal zerg, you run from point a to b, back to a and repeat, killing randoms and small groups. When you do that for TV stones, it's super inefficiant. Because after killing a guy once, you basicly get NOTHING for the second kill. That's why I think in the long run, zerging will not be interested for the most players as players always tend to go the fastest route and only really weak players will need a zerg to get some stones while strong players probably prefer to run solo or in small groups.

It will take a while before everyone realises this, but as soon as it clicks, it will work out automatically.

these zergs from for each area, to each area in the sewer killing eveyrthing in there path, by the time they come around to kill you again, you just gatterd enuf stones to give them somethign again, but jsut not enuf stones to think hey lets go bank it.

and this argument for "zerg stopping" i heard them all "they wil stop becasue of lag" "they wil stop for the low ap" bla bla bla, sinze 1 week after beta people been saying that, and it never stopped. in the past almost 2 years, so dont kid you self

Callous2208 · September 2015

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Thanks again for play testing the DLC. PC Master race!

Saved me a bunch of cash.

From what I've read, DLC that encourages zerg, ganking, trolling and generally being a jerk for Tel-Var stones.

You read wrong. It's a darn good time. I've seen zergs but not on the scale that some of the whiners are making them out to be. Zerg=not very many Tel-Var stones per person so it's pointless. It's quite easy with a small group or even solo to venture through sewers, complete dailies with randoms, and bank a good number of Tel Var stones. I'm doing it, and having some pvp action on the side. My alliance rank is volunteer...so before this I was all pve. Now I'm slamming through the streets of IC owning daedra and filthy elves alike. This is a quality expansion that all players can enjoy.

sekou_trayvond · September 2015

I dunno. My friend and I had a great time last night trying to stealth our way back to bank our measly ~100 stones each. Weaving around daedra, avoiding the gaze of zergs- it was a hoot- especially when I tore off to help a daedra finish off an AD random for his stones, all the while my friend is yelling at me "what are you doing!?!?!? We're almost there!" I just laughed at the fun of it all.

TL;DR have fun. It's a game. But bank often.

Sallington · September 2015

sekou_trayvond wrote: »

I dunno. My friend and I had a great time last night trying to stealth our way back to bank our measly ~100 stones each. Weaving around daedra, avoiding the gaze of zergs- it was a hoot- especially when I tore off to help a daedra finish off an AD random for his stones, all the while my friend is yelling at me "what are you doing!?!?!? We're almost there!" I just laughed at the fun of it all.

TL;DR have fun. It's a game. But bank often.

Agree 100%

The constant danger of IC is addictingly fun. Risk vs Reward gameplay at it's best.

cazlonb16_ESO · September 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

The current risk incentive actually appeals to most players and is actually good for the game if you look at it.

I very much doubt that, otherwise player looting wouldn't be almost dead in the MMO genre. Games offering that kind of gameplay, like Darkfall, are deserted and even in Eve the vast majority of players never go into 0.0 space.

There is no obvious reason why the ESO playerbase should be completely different.

Lionxoft · September 2015

Sharee wrote: »

Lionxoft wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

AshTal wrote: »

I know its early days but right now its hard to move 10 feet without being hit by a zerg group or a NB stealthing NPCs.

Out in the districts, yes. But I have not seen a single enemy player in the first few rooms in front of my alliance base (in the sewers) during the time i was playing yesterday. They were full of friendlies tho, and i assume any enemy daring to stick his nose in there got promptly zerged back out.

They are attempting to just grief players entering or exiting the city which is ultimately a problem.

It is hard to grief players wanting to exit IC base into IC itself by blocking them considering there are seven separate exits from it. The path back can be blocked, but such a block can be bypassed for a 10% stone cost by simply suiciding, or (if you have really many stones on you) by using the teleport stone.

lol so bypassing game mechanics is your solution? Pffaahahahahhahahahahahaha! Biggest joke I've heard in a long time.

nimander99 · September 2015

10% TV stone loss is the only number that makes sense, its to easy to get nailed by the zerg and if you run, the Daedra get you and you still lose TV stones, it NEEDS to be lowered, the risk vs reward system has created a local in your area of sewers zerg farm circle which is lame. It feels like Neverwinter, only it isnt fun because you lose your money.