AshTal wrote: »

Want to just say I agree with the Original post Argonian passives are massively under powered. This would show up more on the stats but very few people play them because they are so crap. The Argonian's need a lot of love not just the band aid they got with the latest patch.

YurtTheSilentChief wrote: »

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

YurtTheSilentChief wrote: »

Remove swim speed and replace it with running or combat speed by 5%-20%.

I personally like the swimming speed.
Maybe make it increase all forms of movement speed, rather than just swimming speed.
Might not be able to hit hard, but at least hit and run tactics become optional.

Yes,this will suffice!.
But, know that increase in all forms of movement speed will give them advantage in combat as well as fleeing.(they will be true assassins with this ability )

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

As someone who likes to create unique and effective builds in ESO... I've always been very disappointed with the Argonian race passives... I feel like Argonians are an afterthought to players who want efficient race passives.

No matter what type of build you're going for (tanking, healing, DPS, magicka-based, stamina-based, etc.), there are other race options that are simply better.

I was hoping this update would bring some nice changes to the Argonian passives... Hopefully if we keep speaking up, we will eventually get through to Zenimax!

I know there are people who like rolling with an Argonian and some people who like rolling with a Khajiit, but the reason both (well, I think the khajiits finally got a decent-ish buff) usually get treated like second class races is because they're probably the least popular classes in the TES games, so less time and thought probably goes into them. Their starting stats in normal TES games usually suck too. Imagine the noise if Dunmers sucked as much as the Argonians? It would be carnage.

Junkogen wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEl9HqgZzdI

Our struggle made the news!

Xendyn wrote: »

Well I for one, would be happy to ditch that silly Resto staff leveling boost.
I don't understand that point of giving a race, basically the Training trait, and then not giving them something to do with it.

Like a boost to heals or max magicka, or regen or something.
Who cares about training a Resto staff if you have no reason to use it?

Digiman wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert

Description of Argonians:

"Argonians are a beast race of reptilian humanoids consistently portrayed throughout the Elder Scrolls series of games as intelligent, quick and agile, tending towards the in-game character classes of the mage and the thief. Within the ES world, Argonians inhabit the swampy inhospitable region of Black Marsh, home to sentient trees called the Hist, which are worshiped by Argonians and play an essential part in their religion and life cycle. Years of defending their homeland has made them masters of guerrilla warfare. They can breathe underwater and are resistant to poison and diseases."

Aside from the disease and poison resistance, how do Argonians in ESO resemble that description? Answer is, they don't. Please redesign the racial passives to redeem yourselves in the eyes of the void-lord Sithis. Seriously, the "tweaks" made for the Imperial City DLC aren't even Band-aids. They're insults to true Argonian fans. You need to get rid of the potion and healing received passives and give us something more universally useful and resembling the aforementioned description of Argonians.

Eric Wrobel must be stopped...and, @ZOS_RichLambert , you have the power to stop him. You would be a hero to Argonians throughout Tamriel. You're name would be passed down through generations of Argonians as the savior our race. Please, help us. You're our only hope. Bring this madness to an end.

I think that the description aptly applies to Argonians because their racials are excellent for tanking and taking lots of damage.

Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

Some people just need to run infused alchemy cool down glyphs, clever alchemist, and balorghs on a stamina Nightblade as an Argonian... You won't be complaining that they don't have max stamina as Shadow born Argonian because it doesn't matter at that point

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

[*]Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling.

• This was one of our more challenging but exciting tasks, as it gave us additional opportunities to work with other teams. We delved deep into our rich and established lore to make bonuses that highlight racial differences. This means that we didn’t outright balance each race to be equal in every avenue of the game, as there’s a story to be told with how the races engage with the world around them. Nords are well known for being hardier races who can take a hit, while High Elves are better at wielding magical spells. If we were to balance them to be equal in both, we’d lose the unique identities of these races.

Koronach wrote: »

The loss of poison resist is so lore breaking it bothers me. When multiple quests in this game itself state that we have it.

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

The loss of poison resist is so lore breaking it bothers me. When multiple quests in this game itself state that we have it.

Yes, i don't understand what kind of reasoning could be behind that removal.
I'd have prefered they lost the disease resist instead.

phantasmalD wrote: »

Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

Some people just need to run infused alchemy cool down glyphs, clever alchemist, and balorghs on a stamina Nightblade as an Argonian... You won't be complaining that they don't have max stamina as Shadow born Argonian because it doesn't matter at that point

Balorgh has 0 connection to potion so I don't see how that's relevant.
Infused potion + Clever Alchemist is a PvP build, it's garbage in PvE. You are better off using recovery glyphs and sets that don't have completely dead set bonuses.

Might as well keep the dream alive, maybe argonians will become more lore friendly one day.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

[*]Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling.

• This was one of our more challenging but exciting tasks, as it gave us additional opportunities to work with other teams. We delved deep into our rich and established lore to make bonuses that highlight racial differences. This means that we didn’t outright balance each race to be equal in every avenue of the game, as there’s a story to be told with how the races engage with the world around them. Nords are well known for being hardier races who can take a hit, while High Elves are better at wielding magical spells. If we were to balance them to be equal in both, we’d lose the unique identities of these races.

This point was definitely not achived with the argonians, they are now more lore breaking than ever.
Two quotes already analyzing the problem:

phantasmalD wrote: »

Arena:
Faster Swimming
+10 Agility, Speed
-10 Endurance, -10 Luck
Arcane, Thieving, Pick-pocketing

Daggerfall:
Breath Underwater
+10 Agility, Speed, Strength (female)
-10 Endurance
According to the flavor text: adept at the arts of thievery and spellcasting, but there are also some warriors

Morrowind:
Immunity to disease and poison
+10 Agility, Intelligence, Speed,
-10 Endurance, Personality
Bonus to Athletics, Alchemy, Illusion, Mysticism, Unarmored, Medium armor, Spear
Poison and Disease resistance

Oblivion:
Immunity to disease and poison
+10 Agility, Intelligence, Speed
-10 Endurance
Bonus to Athletics, Alchemy, Illusion, Mysticism, Hand-to-Hand, Blade
Poison and Disease resistance

Skyrim:
Breath underwater
Lockpicking and Pickpocketing,Alteration, Light Armor, Restoration, Sneak
Can recover large amounts of health once a day
50% disease resist
Higher unarmed damage

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Character_Creation#Character_Stats
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Races
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Races

They definitely had a well established racial style before:
Agile and intelligent rogues and support mages who thrive in wet environment but generally less robust than most races (aka -Endurance = had less HP). There were changes here and there mainly due to changing game mechanics but it was still generally coherent for the first 4 games.
Skyrim mixed things up a lot fo every race by getting rid of the Attribute system but the bonuses still kinda line up with the earlier image.

in ESO we have:

• Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed → Swimming is a must and restoration affinity is kinda fitting
• Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion. → Reflects their affinity for Alchemy, magical arts and burst recovery from Skyrim
• Argonian Resistance: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect. → the Health increase in particular goes against the -Endurance of earlier games which was one of their most consistent trait. Losing the poison immuntity is lorebreaking big time
• Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 6%. → They did have a slight affinity for Restoration in Skyrim but this is overkill.

So there's nothing to really showcase their sneaky, assassiny disposition and their mastery of guerilla warfare, all of which is lore actively being backed by ESO (Shadowscales and flavor text)

Faulgor wrote: »

Argonian
Good Attributes: Intelligence (f), Agility (m), Speed (m)
Bad Attributes: Willpower (m), Endurance, Personality
Skills: Alchemy, Alteration, Athletics, Blade, Hand to Hand, Illusion, Light Armor, Medium Armor, Mysticism, Restoration, Security (Lockpicking, Pickpocket, Sneak), Spear, Unarmored

Argonians aren't only the most sexually dimorphic species, their skill bonuses have also changed constantly. There is not one single skill they've had a bonus to in all three games. However, they have always retained some kind of non-offensive magical affinity (Illusion, Alteration, Mysticism, Restoration) as well as skills that require a considerable amount of agility and dexterity (Athletics, Lockpicking, Sneak). Both of these are reflected in their best attributes of Intelligence, Agility and Speed. What Argonians have never been prior to ESO are tanky people who can take a beating, in fact having a weakness in Endurance and Willpower, and an Argonian in heavy armor is basically unheard of. The only thing this could reference is the "Histskin" power from Skyrim, which granted massive health recovery once a day. The Resourceful passive is appropriate, given the bonus to Alchemy in Morrowind and Oblivion, and Quick to Mend can be a reference to their Restoration bonus from Skyrim. However, there is nothing that would reflect Argonian's agile nature. I would suggest to change the 1000 health bonus to 1000 stamina instead.
The resistance to disease is fitting, however, it should be noted that Argonians had complete poison immunity in Morrowind and Oblivion, which only got removed in Skyrim.

- The posion immunity has been a long standing part of argonian lore AND is actively getting backed by ESO itself
- they had -10 Endurance for four out of five of the main games, this massively contradicts the +1000HP bonus they are getting in ESO atm. Saxhleel are not supposed to be naturally bulky
- Healing done is a poor representation of their actual magickal expertise. The true healing and defensive mages of TES have always been Bretons, Argonians are roguish spellswords.
- The superior recovery has only appeared in one game (Skyrim) but like whatever, it's kinda related to Alchemy so I'll let it slide but I'm not a huge fan of it.

- No passive to reflect their sneaky, assassiny disposition and their mastery of guerilla warfare, all of which is lore actively being backed by ESO (Shadowscales, Thieves guild and flavor text) (this can't be stressed enough)

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Gilliam