Yes, women play games.

Sausage · August 2015

BabeestorGor wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

BabeestorGor wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

likelolwhat wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Theres tons of girly MMOs already. Go even once for masculinity.

Where is a facepalm emoji when you need it.

Cazzy wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Theres tons of girly MMOs already. Go even once for masculinity.

Or, y'know, both

Its our turn honestly. Just like blood and gore. Theres literally tons of MMOs with some female armor design already, its probably market gimmick but way too much. This genre is already over-girly, imho. There isnt even muscular body type, its just same old flat. Its Zen choice but if you look at this genre theres already tons of MMOs for chicks.

Sorry but no.
Whats a mmo for chicks? I suspect I wouldn't like it.

Are you trolling. Plenty from Asia?

Dyes, flat body type, female armors are making this genre way too feminine. Not to mention one billion Asian F2P game what are trying to market with sexy armors.

AsRosveen said thats not a mmo for women, its for teenage boys.
Please stop trying to tell me what I've been asking for. You're wrong. Not all women want the same things.

OK, Ill see you at next triple a MMORPG forums. Girls whining is as popular as housing, it comes up alot.

Dahkoht · August 2015

Soulshine · August 2015

@MornaBaine

Kind of amazed, and somewhat disappointed, you made this post.

In the past, I have often read your threads on the issue of Vampires in the game and found you had many good ideas and things to say about how their looks and to some degree funtion could be improved. I think I even remember commenting as much to you in one of them.

This however, just seems like an ill guided attempt to draw attention to other parts of the game you may not be happy with. As many others have already commented, the things you are interested in having such as cosmetic improvements and housing, are things all players have asked for, as you well know, for a very long time. They are not requests exclusively belonging to the bastion of the female.

That said, as a woman ( I am long past girlhood...) I also find it somewhat offensive that you would take issue with the game's depiction of Lyris. I find her refreshing and hardly the "dumb blond." She is without a doubt in my mind one of the most interesting of the Five and on many levels the most loyal lore depicted stereotype of a Nord Warrior I have seen in the game - BOOBS and all. I LIKE her the way she is.

Please, please - if you are going to take up arms against ZoS over anthing, speak for yourself alone and leave the notion of "we women" out of it. All voices count here and your own voice is certainly strong enough to stand on it's own. Throwing in the "gender card" never wins anything but discord, as you can plainly see. Stop it.

newtinmpls · August 2015

QueenCandy wrote: »

I want more classes because only 3 is extremely tiny. Downtime activities would be fantastic. More areas, more progression.

I want no classes and more skill lines unlocked by minor quests (i.e. similar to fighters or mages guilds) so that I can make my characters very individualized.

I also want more options for armor; bring back original redgard light (maybe as a "found page").

More options in general.

EnglishDragon17 · August 2015

Soulshine wrote: »

@MornaBaine
I find her refreshing and hardly the "dumb blond."quote]

she is a dumb blond

Recremen · August 2015

Sausage wrote: »

likelolwhat wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Theres tons of girly MMOs already. Go even once for masculinity.

Where is a facepalm emoji when you need it.

Cazzy wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Theres tons of girly MMOs already. Go even once for masculinity.

Or, y'know, both

Its our turn honestly. Just like blood and gore. Theres literally tons of MMOs with some female armor design already, its probably market gimmick but way too much. This genre is already over-girly, imho. There isnt even muscular body type, its just same old flat. Its Zen choice but if you look at this genre theres already tons of MMOs for chicks.

I think you are confused about a lot here. "Female armor" is notoriously used as a tactic to attract immature straight boys to a title. Much as you like looking at muscles, these boys like looking at women in form-fitting and revealing clothing/armor. While some women like those things, too, they do not comprise the primary target audience of those development studios.

Further, this series has historically been played by loads of people of every gender. It's just got an incredibly wide appeal and draws in a diverse crowd. So when it comes to ESO, there is no "our turn", it's everyone's turn all at once. Moreover, there isn't some set of These Are For Men features a game could have that all boys will instantly flock to. It turns out that in-gender interests vary wildly. So some might like blood and gore, but others might detest it. Some might like character customization and RP, others may hate that. Some might like technical combat, boss mechanics, some might like PvP, some might like immersive story, some might like everything! Gendered preferences simply aren't actually real.

wraith808 · August 2015

Rosveen wrote: »

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

OneWhomWaits wrote: »

lol. No end of folks who post generalizations.

I play 0 mobile games. I'd rather be gaming on a 60" screen than a 4.5" one.

Your assumptions just lack any basis and sound like made up "facts".

There is no "most women". No more than replacing those words with "most men".

There is just gamers and we sure do love to game. Reminds me of an incident I had at my local GameStop. Guy behind the counter ignored that I was the person who needed his help. He couldn't see that the female in front of him was actually his gaming customer.

I wouldn't go that far. "Most women" exist, though in this case it would probably be more useful to research "most female gamers" or better yet, "most female ESO players". It's just statistics. But as with all statistics, we need to be careful how these numbers were calculated and what purpose they can serve. Simply knowing that x% of ESO players are women doesn't tell us much about their expectations and playing habits.

Smells like a poll is cooking. Do it, do it, do it!

Forum polls are mostly meaningless anyway. We're just a sliver of the population.

Thanks for saying it, so I didn't have to. I've pretty much given up on it, though.

Recremen · August 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

OneWhomWaits wrote: »

lol. No end of folks who post generalizations.

I play 0 mobile games. I'd rather be gaming on a 60" screen than a 4.5" one.

Your assumptions just lack any basis and sound like made up "facts".

There is no "most women". No more than replacing those words with "most men".

There is just gamers and we sure do love to game. Reminds me of an incident I had at my local GameStop. Guy behind the counter ignored that I was the person who needed his help. He couldn't see that the female in front of him was actually his gaming customer.

I wouldn't go that far. "Most women" exist, though in this case it would probably be more useful to research "most female gamers" or better yet, "most female ESO players". It's just statistics. But as with all statistics, we need to be careful how these numbers were calculated and what purpose they can serve. Simply knowing that x% of ESO players are women doesn't tell us much about their expectations and playing habits.

Smells like a poll is cooking. Do it, do it, do it!

Forum polls are mostly meaningless anyway. We're just a sliver of the population.

Thanks for saying it, so I didn't have to. I've pretty much given up on it, though.

Wait, you mean you don't enjoy intrinsic selection bias by only sampling from a population with secondary interest overlap??

wraith808 · August 2015

Sausage wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

BabeestorGor wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

likelolwhat wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Theres tons of girly MMOs already. Go even once for masculinity.

Where is a facepalm emoji when you need it.

Cazzy wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Theres tons of girly MMOs already. Go even once for masculinity.

Or, y'know, both

Its our turn honestly. Just like blood and gore. Theres literally tons of MMOs with some female armor design already, its probably market gimmick but way too much. This genre is already over-girly, imho. There isnt even muscular body type, its just same old flat. Its Zen choice but if you look at this genre theres already tons of MMOs for chicks.

Sorry but no.
Whats a mmo for chicks? I suspect I wouldn't like it.

Are you trolling. Plenty from Asia?

Dyes, flat body type, female armors are making this genre way too feminine. Not to mention one billion Asian F2P game what are trying to market with sexy armors.

You realize that revealing armors are aimed at the young straight male demographic, right?

Or no? Ive been around for good 15+ years in MMO genre and girls always keep asking (whined..) things for them, and the gerne has answered, its becoming too much already. That brings up my point, its our time now.

No, in fact. The skin you see in games... they're for guys. Go back to Elder Scrolls: Arena, and what do you see on the box? A scantily clad woman. That was 20+ years ago. I have no idea what you're talking about in terms of girly games, but no... skin is for men.

wraith808 · August 2015

Recremen wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

OneWhomWaits wrote: »

lol. No end of folks who post generalizations.

I play 0 mobile games. I'd rather be gaming on a 60" screen than a 4.5" one.

Your assumptions just lack any basis and sound like made up "facts".

There is no "most women". No more than replacing those words with "most men".

There is just gamers and we sure do love to game. Reminds me of an incident I had at my local GameStop. Guy behind the counter ignored that I was the person who needed his help. He couldn't see that the female in front of him was actually his gaming customer.

I wouldn't go that far. "Most women" exist, though in this case it would probably be more useful to research "most female gamers" or better yet, "most female ESO players". It's just statistics. But as with all statistics, we need to be careful how these numbers were calculated and what purpose they can serve. Simply knowing that x% of ESO players are women doesn't tell us much about their expectations and playing habits.

Smells like a poll is cooking. Do it, do it, do it!

Forum polls are mostly meaningless anyway. We're just a sliver of the population.

Thanks for saying it, so I didn't have to. I've pretty much given up on it, though.

Wait, you mean you don't enjoy intrinsic selection bias by only sampling from a population with secondary interest overlap??

OMG... don't get me started! I used to have it in my .sig. But then, I realized, most people just don't care.

One of my favorite academic books is How to Lie With Statistics. Although Freakonomics is a close second, and it talks about that too. I've just come to realize that people don't care about anything but their own perspective and what will prop that up rather than rational discourse. And prophets historically don't have a long lifespan.

wraith808 · August 2015

EnglishDragon17 wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

@MornaBaine
I find her refreshing and hardly the "dumb blond."quote]

she is a dumb blond

I'll quote someone who said it better than me.

ObsidianMichi wrote: »

I'm sorry... what was said about Lyris? The woman with an atypical bodytype, who is taller and stronger than all the men around her, and of all my female characters only my Altmer can even stand anywhere close to her height. She makes Tharn look puny. She's tough. She's capable. She's been made lonely because she felt like a freak and was made to feel like one. She's even got a few battlescars. And she can hold her own with Tharn in a snark contest. She's obviously not the most intelligent team member in the room, but she answers Tharn's put downs barb for barb.

"The gods gave you a nose for a reason, Tharn, so you could still breathe with your mouth shut."
"Well played, Titanborn. Well played."

We're labeling her a "big, busty blonde" now? She's meant to appeal to the lowest common denominator among young male gamers? I don't think so. You can't even flirt with her. She's a fairly well-rounded character, if a little sterotypical, and her "will they or won't they" romance with Sai Sahan is very sweet. Especially since he's so much shorter than she is and doesn't mind at all. Naryu is far closer to what I'd expect when it comes to a character written for appeal, and she's really not that bad. Gabrielle Benele (much as I love her dearly) is the same way. Lyris? HA!

Do you know how rare it is to see a video game that even acknowledges that women can be tall? Much less taller than men. Much less have another male character be attracted to her without being emasculated or letting her prowess emasculate him in the process? No? Because it's not common. It's like trying to find a game with LGBT characters where their orientation isn't the central aspect of their plot or purpose in the story.

Lyris may not be to everyone's tastes, but she's hardly fodder for bottom feeders.

I think this game does very well on a variety of fronts. There are plenty of female commanders, leaders, and women in leadership positions. There are a great many heroic women, sniveling women, villainous women, and a great wife for every hysteric one. There are plenty of female characters in the game that I wouldn't want to be friends with, but I don't see that as a strike against my gender. Rather, it's refreshing to see some reflection of reality. There are a few hiccups here and there, but (zone chat aside) I've actually found the game itself to be one of the most female and diversity friendly MMOs on the market.

So, to each their own.

trinta · August 2015

Sausage wrote: »

BabeestorGor wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

BabeestorGor wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

likelolwhat wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Theres tons of girly MMOs already. Go even once for masculinity.

Where is a facepalm emoji when you need it.

Cazzy wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Theres tons of girly MMOs already. Go even once for masculinity.

Or, y'know, both

Its our turn honestly. Just like blood and gore. Theres literally tons of MMOs with some female armor design already, its probably market gimmick but way too much. This genre is already over-girly, imho. There isnt even muscular body type, its just same old flat. Its Zen choice but if you look at this genre theres already tons of MMOs for chicks.

Sorry but no.
Whats a mmo for chicks? I suspect I wouldn't like it.

Are you trolling. Plenty from Asia?

Dyes, flat body type, female armors are making this genre way too feminine. Not to mention one billion Asian F2P game what are trying to market with sexy armors.

AsRosveen said thats not a mmo for women, its for teenage boys.
Please stop trying to tell me what I've been asking for. You're wrong. Not all women want the same things.

OK, Ill see you at next triple a MMORPG forums. Girls whining is as popular as housing, it comes up alot.

Yes, girls whining is popular. You're entirely right. (Of course, guys whining is popular, too, but I'm going to guess that never crosses your radar.)

Girls who whine about things in the name of girlydom are a fraction of the girls who are here. A small fraction, if this thread is any indication. You're blaming BabeestorGor for another person's input, because they're both girls. You think you understand the "girl perspective" because the ones who belligerently identify themselves as girls all seem to want the same things. You seem not to consider that perhaps half of the people you normally talk to about the game, debate or agree with, and respect, are also girls, because they aren't of the "HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A DUDE?" variety.

I think it's worth considering that your views on the female perspective are a bit skewed by the fact that you only know the gender of the ones who want to make it an issue.

As an aside, you admit that you will also be at the next AAA MMO's forums. This is somehow a girl problem, though?

Tolmos · August 2015

The article points out a great statistic, but one that is entirely useless to this forum or the game developers.

What platforms do these women play on? Is the majority demographic of PC gamers women? Console gamers? Handheld? Mobile?

The article implies mobile. Fair enough; as a mobile game developer, this directly corresponds to my interests and I'll be sure to keep that in mind in future games (incoming heroes in chainmail tighty-whiteys...).

But for the interest of ESO, or other PC games? Obviously they don't want to alienate anyone, but they also will be focusing their marketing not on the largest demographic of a DIFFERENT platform, but instead the largest demographic of their CURRENT platform(s). This data doesn't tell them that. I'm sure they have data, via registration to play the game, to tell them that information; but this particular set of data says nothing.

It's awesome that more women are getting into the mobile market, and that casual/puzzle games are their primary interest. I now know what type of game I want to make next. But for ESO? This doesn't tell us much.

Tolmos · August 2015

trinta wrote: »

Girls who whine about things in the name of girlydom are a fraction of the girls who are here. A small fraction, if this thread is any indication. You're blaming BabeestorGor for another person's input, because they're both girls. You think you understand the "girl perspective" because the only ones who belligerently identify themselves as girls all seem to want the same things. You seem not to consider that perhaps half of the people you normally talk to about the game, debate or agree with, and respect, are also girls, because they aren't of the "HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A DUDE?" variety.

The loudest people are often the ones you don't want to be speaking in the first place.

My fiancé is a gamer; as much as I. Together we own 2 of every current console, each have a gaming PC, and both devote a pretty decent bit of free time to our hobby. A lot of her interests are basically about the same as most of the male gamers I've known. She plays FPSs (we were huge into Destiny and Planetside 2), her favorite game series on PC are Mass Effect and Dragon Age, etc etc. She gets an involuntary twitch in her eye when she sees people like Anita Sarkeesian talking about games, and talks longingly of the days when we will go to E3 or PAX. We're both programmers, both as our career jobs and hobbies.

She's about as polar opposite of the stereotypical "girl gamer" trope as you can get, and I have found that she is quite the norm for the women I've met who game on PC/console. And that's quite a few (more than the number of men I've met who game on PC/console)

When on an MMO, she does play female characters but otherwise never mentions it or brings it up. Since she only really uses text chat, most people think she's a guy and she never really corrects them on it. Why bother? What exactly will it affect by broadcasting her gender the world? It literally affects nothing about her in game experience, so it doesn't ever become a topic.

It's a shame that the "girl gamers" who "whine about things in the name of girlydom" are what people immediately think of when they think of when they think of women in gaming, but I have personally found them to be rare. It's just that those voices are the loudest, those voices are the ones that the media loves (because it fits such a perfect little stereotypical trope), and they fit the mold of what most people have come to expect. The majority of the down to earth players? They do like the rest of us and keep to themselves, and thus the stereotype never gets broken.

nimander99 · August 2015

Illuminati play games...

ShinChuck · August 2015

Tolmos wrote: »

trinta wrote: »

Girls who whine about things in the name of girlydom are a fraction of the girls who are here. A small fraction, if this thread is any indication. You're blaming BabeestorGor for another person's input, because they're both girls. You think you understand the "girl perspective" because the only ones who belligerently identify themselves as girls all seem to want the same things. You seem not to consider that perhaps half of the people you normally talk to about the game, debate or agree with, and respect, are also girls, because they aren't of the "HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A DUDE?" variety.

The loudest people are often the ones you don't want to be speaking in the first place.

My fiancé is a gamer; as much as I. Together we own 2 of every current console, each have a gaming PC, and both devote a pretty decent bit of free time to our hobby. A lot of her interests are basically about the same as most of the male gamers I've known. She plays FPSs (we were huge into Destiny and Planetside 2), her favorite game series on PC are Mass Effect and Dragon Age, etc etc. She gets an involuntary twitch in her eye when she sees people like Anita Sarkeesian talking about games, and talks longingly of the days when we will go to E3 or PAX. We're both programmers, both as our career jobs and hobbies.

She's about as polar opposite of the stereotypical "girl gamer" trope as you can get, and I have found that she is quite the norm for the women I've met who game on PC/console. And that's quite a few (more than the number of men I've met who game on PC/console)

When on an MMO, she does play female characters but otherwise never mentions it or brings it up. Since she only really uses text chat, most people think she's a guy and she never really corrects them on it. Why bother? What exactly will it affect by broadcasting her gender the world? It literally affects nothing about her in game experience, so it doesn't ever become a topic.

It's a shame that the "girl gamers" who "whine about things in the name of girlydom" are what people immediately think of when they think of when they think of women in gaming, but I have personally found them to be rare. It's just that those voices are the loudest, those voices are the ones that the media loves (because it fits such a perfect little stereotypical trope), and they fit the mold of what most people have come to expect. The majority of the down to earth players? They do like the rest of us and keep to themselves, and thus the stereotype never gets broken.

I'll give a thumbs up to both you and trinta. Virtually the same exact situation here between myself and my wife (and the vast majority of girls who have ever been in a guild with us across a dozen or so MMOs!). She'll even go out of her way to troll particularly obnoxious ones, laughing as they shout "Typical male!" at her.

Besides, the "HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A DUDE?" people are confused about the flexibility of the word "dude".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqMODweN8lQ

Flattedfifth · August 2015

P3ZZL3 wrote: »

In a recent survey of 10 gamers, 6 of which were female, we found that 60% of the market is female.

Some of these surveys are somewhat questionable to say the least. I read a terrible one in the BBC the other day.

Personally, I think ESO does actually cater for the female demographic very well. There's a huge range of options for both types of character, and the changing of the armour sets to be less "exposed" certainly didn't happen by chance. If I remember some articles a while ago, many commented on how come, going in to battle as a female character why are we supposed to wear iron plate bikini's ??? (a very fair comment!)

I think ESO is prob. closer to this on both sides

This. I know I'll probably get flamed to oblivion but ESO is one of the more feminist games I've ever seen/played. Not only are female avatars allowed the same amount of dignity with armor, but everywhere you go (it's split pretty evenly I'd say) female characters are captains of guards/leaders of armies/bosses (as in the toughest ncp to fight)/diplomats and so on. And ESO does this without beating you over the head with it "SEE!? LOOK AT HOW PROGRESSIVE WE ARE!!".

ObsidianMichi · August 2015

Flattedfifth wrote: »

This. I know I'll probably get flamed to oblivion but ESO is one of the more feminist games I've ever seen/played. Not only are female avatars allowed the same amount of dignity with armor, but everywhere you go (it's split pretty evenly I'd say) female characters are captains of guards/leaders of armies/bosses (as in the toughest ncp to fight)/diplomats and so on. And ESO does this without beating you over the head with it "SEE!? LOOK AT HOW PROGRESSIVE WE ARE!!".

The unintrusiveness of it is very nice and the vast quantity is even better. I have noticed and I thank ZoS for going out of their way to include gender parity across the spectrum. They certainly didn't have to. It's an intentional design element and writing choice, just like never questioning a female character's competence as being based on her gender or making snide remarks at the gay couple. My characters are never turned into idiots just so they can be educated, or made stupid because someone wanted to make a point. Instead, they're just organically woven into the world and it's presented as normal. They're just there, living their lives for good or ill. The biggest issues I've seen crop up between couples revolve around their race, rather than their sex and these directly relate to cultural tensions we've seen at play throughout the greater narrative. They highlight them and help communicate the difficulties which come from the world that surrounds them. It serves a purpose and helps build the world.

I'm with you. It's seamless. Frankly, I don't think it gets enough credit for how wonderfully openminded it is and how it presents that as a normative state.

Woman · August 2015

As more women get into gaming, I hope that more of us will stop seeing one another as competition and rather as a potential friend. I find we often get trapped into feeling territorial of being the only female in a male dominated community. Like all gamers, we often don't have a lot in common with our RL friends in relation to gaming- and hopefully that will soon change for everyone.

Elder Scrolls has always treated women like any other human being and I think that's part of the reason TESO has such a fantastic female community. I'm glad to see a more diverse future for gaming

RizaHawkeye · August 2015

Flattedfifth wrote: »

... I know I'll probably get flamed to oblivion but ESO is one of the more feminist games I've ever seen/played. Not only are female avatars allowed the same amount of dignity with armor, but everywhere you go (it's split pretty evenly I'd say) female characters are captains of guards/leaders of armies/bosses (as in the toughest ncp to fight)/diplomats and so on. And ESO does this without beating you over the head with it "SEE!? LOOK AT HOW PROGRESSIVE WE ARE!!".

You won't get flamed by me.

The problem with feminism in video games right now is the few pundits and media addicts who think they speak for all women everywhere. They scream every time they think something is "unequal" or "unfair." While I agree with some of what they say, I'm also aware these people get their attention, their followers, and I suppose some of their money, from these rants. As soon as they don't have something to rant about, they lose their audience. And so there will always be something to rant about.

Most women I know (even those who style themselves as feminists) aren't about b*tiching and complaining. We want simple fairness. You don't get that with numbers; you get it with attitude and language. It shows up it in the way you think and how you talk. Do you use the phrase "run like a girl?" When you talk to me, do you look at my eyes or my chest? When you come to a forum ask for skimpy clothing, do you blame your "girlfriend" who wants to look beautiful? (Yeah, because that's believable.)

When we don't get these things, we don't rage. We just walk away. We play a different game. Bye, bye Witcher. See you, Assassin's Creed. I've don't play about a dozen games I can think of easily because the attitude and language towards women is unacceptable to me. But if someone else wants to play those games (and I'm looking at you, Tera), I won't let my attitude get in the way. Fairness means if I want to play a game my way, then I need to let you have your way, too.

This isn't a forum for feminism or women and gender in video games. If you want to join that party, Google is your friend. But know that ESO works because gender isn't an issue. It's about characters, not genders. And it's that way because girls helped make this game.

Yeah.

waterfairy · August 2015

MornaBaine wrote: »

You MIGHT want to start paying attention to that ZOS. Just sayin'.

They have...they walled up the boob windows and took all the sexy out of most armor for you.

Flattedfifth · August 2015

ObsidianMichi wrote: »

Flattedfifth wrote: »

This. I know I'll probably get flamed to oblivion but ESO is one of the more feminist games I've ever seen/played. Not only are female avatars allowed the same amount of dignity with armor, but everywhere you go (it's split pretty evenly I'd say) female characters are captains of guards/leaders of armies/bosses (as in the toughest ncp to fight)/diplomats and so on. And ESO does this without beating you over the head with it "SEE!? LOOK AT HOW PROGRESSIVE WE ARE!!".

The unintrusiveness of it is very nice and the vast quantity is even better. I have noticed and I thank ZoS for going out of their way to include gender parity across the spectrum. They certainly didn't have to. It's an intentional design element and writing choice, just like never questioning a female character's competence as being based on her gender or making snide remarks at the gay couple. My characters are never turned into idiots just so they can be educated, or made stupid because someone wanted to make a point. Instead, they're just organically woven into the world and it's presented as normal. They're just there, living their lives for good or ill. The biggest issues I've seen crop up between couples revolve around their race, rather than their sex and these directly relate to cultural tensions we've seen at play throughout the greater narrative. They highlight them and help communicate the difficulties which come from the world that surrounds them. It serves a purpose and helps build the world.

I'm with you. It's seamless. Frankly, I don't think it gets enough credit for how wonderfully openminded it is and how it presents that as a normative state.

I'm with ya, bud

Flattedfifth · August 2015

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

Flattedfifth wrote: »

... I know I'll probably get flamed to oblivion but ESO is one of the more feminist games I've ever seen/played. Not only are female avatars allowed the same amount of dignity with armor, but everywhere you go (it's split pretty evenly I'd say) female characters are captains of guards/leaders of armies/bosses (as in the toughest ncp to fight)/diplomats and so on. And ESO does this without beating you over the head with it "SEE!? LOOK AT HOW PROGRESSIVE WE ARE!!".

You won't get flamed by me.

The problem with feminism in video games right now is the few pundits and media addicts who think they speak for all women everywhere. They scream every time they think something is "unequal" or "unfair." While I agree with some of what they say, I'm also aware these people get their attention, their followers, and I suppose some of their money, from these rants. As soon as they don't have something to rant about, they lose their audience. And so there will always be something to rant about.

Most women I know (even those who style themselves as feminists) aren't about b*tiching and complaining. We want simple fairness. You don't get that with numbers; you get it with attitude and language. It shows up it in the way you think and how you talk. Do you use the phrase "run like a girl?" When you talk to me, do you look at my eyes or my chest? When you come to a forum ask for skimpy clothing, do you blame your "girlfriend" who wants to look beautiful? (Yeah, because that's believable.)

When we don't get these things, we don't rage. We just walk away. We play a different game. Bye, bye Witcher. See you, Assassin's Creed. I've don't play about a dozen games I can think of easily because the attitude and language towards women is unacceptable to me. But if someone else wants to play those games (and I'm looking at you, Tera), I won't let my attitude get in the way. Fairness means if I want to play a game my way, then I need to let you have your way, too.

This isn't a forum for feminism or women and gender in video games. If you want to join that party, Google is your friend. But know that ESO works because gender isn't issue. It's about characters, not genders. And it's that way because girls helped make this game.

Yeah.

Well said!

Recremen · August 2015

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

Flattedfifth wrote: »

... I know I'll probably get flamed to oblivion but ESO is one of the more feminist games I've ever seen/played. Not only are female avatars allowed the same amount of dignity with armor, but everywhere you go (it's split pretty evenly I'd say) female characters are captains of guards/leaders of armies/bosses (as in the toughest ncp to fight)/diplomats and so on. And ESO does this without beating you over the head with it "SEE!? LOOK AT HOW PROGRESSIVE WE ARE!!".

You won't get flamed by me.

The problem with feminism in video games right now is the few pundits and media addicts who think they speak for all women everywhere. They scream every time they think something is "unequal" or "unfair." While I agree with some of what they say, I'm also aware these people get their attention, their followers, and I suppose some of their money, from these rants. As soon as they don't have something to rant about, they lose their audience. And so there will always be something to rant about.

Most women I know (even those who style themselves as feminists) aren't about b*tiching and complaining. We want simple fairness. You don't get that with numbers; you get it with attitude and language. It shows up it in the way you think and how you talk. Do you use the phrase "run like a girl?" When you talk to me, do you look at my eyes or my chest? When you come to a forum ask for skimpy clothing, do you blame your "girlfriend" who wants to look beautiful? (Yeah, because that's believable.)

When we don't get these things, we don't rage. We just walk away. We play a different game. Bye, bye Witcher. See you, Assassin's Creed. I've don't play about a dozen games I can think of easily because the attitude and language towards women is unacceptable to me. But if someone else wants to play those games (and I'm looking at you, Tera), I won't let my attitude get in the way. Fairness means if I want to play a game my way, then I need to let you have your way, too.

This isn't a forum for feminism or women and gender in video games. If you want to join that party, Google is your friend. But know that ESO works because gender isn't issue. It's about characters, not genders. And it's that way because girls helped make this game.

Yeah.

I totes agree with most of this, but I differ regarding the purpose of this forum. It's General Discussion, I think if someone wants to discuss feminist issues in relation to the content then it's all fair game. Sure, it's fine to tell someone when they're not making any sense and being obnoxious because they assume you know what secret social context they come from, but I don't think we should try to bar people from discussing topics that are important to them and which affect the game.

Kupoking · August 2015

MornaBaine wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Not trying to be inflammatory, but is there something specific this comment is supposed to address?

Are you referring to the OP or to one of the comments? If you are referring to my OP, I posted it because too often it is CLEAR that MMOs (including this one) are still being geared to a young male audience. Look at the Five Companions. Only ONE woman among them and she's a busty blonde. Oh and of course Tharn is always pointing out how dumb she is. Granted, he's disdainful of the rest of them as well but he saves most of his "you're clearly an idiot" schtick for Lyris. In the animated trailers for this game, which look pretty awesome, there is ONE female character. And, ironically, she shows plenty of cleavage and upper thigh..while you make most of the actual armor available in the game stuff a nun would wear and have actually REMOVED some of the PRETTIER light armor.

The issue of character customization, which is huge with all players but I might argue is ESPECIALLY dear to female players as a general (though not ironclad) rule continues to be largely ignored. Ditto player housing. Female players often want a more immersive world, which means there needs to be more to it than JUST killing things (as much fun as that is!) but this, like every other MMO on the market, is almost the sole focus.

You made us an astonishingly gorgeous world...but you don't let us "live" in it yet. There is so little we can interact with aside from mobs. So what I'm saying is that your devs need to start giving some serious thought to what female gamers might like to have instead of just trying to knock off what has traditionally already "sold" and just doing it with better graphics. We womenfolk are demanding. We want more. And we're happy to pay for it when you make us happy.

THAT was my point.

EDIT: And after scanning through some of the comments now...no, there was no question involved. The article was meant as a "heads up" for ZOS. And as a subject for discussion.

AD is led by a queen...

Just sayin

newtinmpls · August 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

No, in fact. The skin you see in games... they're for guys. Go back to Elder Scrolls: Arena, and what do you see on the box? A scantily clad woman. That was 20+ years ago. I have no idea what you're talking about in terms of girly games, but no... skin is for men.

If the outfits in question were for heterosexual women, it would be skimpy nummy garb on males.

Just my 2 cents there.

wraith808 · August 2015

newtinmpls wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

No, in fact. The skin you see in games... they're for guys. Go back to Elder Scrolls: Arena, and what do you see on the box? A scantily clad woman. That was 20+ years ago. I have no idea what you're talking about in terms of girly games, but no... skin is for men.

If the outfits in question were for heterosexual women, it would be skimpy nummy garb on males.

Just my 2 cents there.

When I said skin is for men, I meant that if you see the skimpy garb, in 80% (and I'm being generous) of the time, they did it to attract men.

RizaHawkeye · August 2015

Recremen wrote: »

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

Flattedfifth wrote: »

... I know I'll probably get flamed to oblivion but ESO is one of the more feminist games I've ever seen/played. Not only are female avatars allowed the same amount of dignity with armor, but everywhere you go (it's split pretty evenly I'd say) female characters are captains of guards/leaders of armies/bosses (as in the toughest ncp to fight)/diplomats and so on. And ESO does this without beating you over the head with it "SEE!? LOOK AT HOW PROGRESSIVE WE ARE!!".

You won't get flamed by me.

The problem with feminism in video games right now is the few pundits and media addicts who think they speak for all women everywhere. They scream every time they think something is "unequal" or "unfair." While I agree with some of what they say, I'm also aware these people get their attention, their followers, and I suppose some of their money, from these rants. As soon as they don't have something to rant about, they lose their audience. And so there will always be something to rant about.

Most women I know (even those who style themselves as feminists) aren't about b*tiching and complaining. We want simple fairness. You don't get that with numbers; you get it with attitude and language. It shows up it in the way you think and how you talk. Do you use the phrase "run like a girl?" When you talk to me, do you look at my eyes or my chest? When you come to a forum ask for skimpy clothing, do you blame your "girlfriend" who wants to look beautiful? (Yeah, because that's believable.)

When we don't get these things, we don't rage. We just walk away. We play a different game. Bye, bye Witcher. See you, Assassin's Creed. I've don't play about a dozen games I can think of easily because the attitude and language towards women is unacceptable to me. But if someone else wants to play those games (and I'm looking at you, Tera), I won't let my attitude get in the way. Fairness means if I want to play a game my way, then I need to let you have your way, too.

This isn't a forum for feminism or women and gender in video games. If you want to join that party, Google is your friend. But know that ESO works because gender isn't issue. It's about characters, not genders. And it's that way because girls helped make this game.

Yeah.

I totes agree with most of this, but I differ regarding the purpose of this forum. It's General Discussion, I think if someone wants to discuss feminist issues in relation to the content then it's all fair game. Sure, it's fine to tell someone when they're not making any sense and being obnoxious because they assume you know what secret social context they come from, but I don't think we should try to bar people from discussing topics that are important to them and which affect the game.

Which is why I said: "This isn't a forum for feminism or women and gender in video games. If you want to join that party, Google is your friend." As in, this is isn't the forum to debate these issues, generally ... (and so I'll keep my thoughts on those broad topics to myself.)

Anyone can discuss whatever they want on this forum, until the moderators stop them.

xerxyz · August 2015

Dunno if this thread is just about done here or not, but I'd like to say that, in terms of gameplay, ESO does a great job with gender equality. No unnecessarily skimpy armor, strong female characters, etc. plus, many crown store outfits cater to th female demographic. No complaints from this girl.

Taleof2Cities · August 2015

There are some extremely competent women leading PvP groups and Trials. Just play the game and you'll figure that out.

(Now I just need to figure out the point of this long thread.).