Proposal to make Negate a vaible ultimate again!

Zlater · August 2015

Derra wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Zlater wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Zlater wrote: »

I've tried it so much before, I found it useful in places like DSA when things are getting hairy and you just want a bit of breathing room, otherwise not anywhere else. PvP its useless, I don't know why you think its any good @manny254 but a negate can just be rolled or Broken out of, just depends on whether you're heavy or medium armor. And yes everyone does know that because NPC's still use the old negate in cyro. I don't know where you are hearing negate is any good, because its just not the case.

Here instead of just talking about it I will give some examples.

In the first clip @ 0:40. You have to understand what is happening in it. The enemy group pushed forward, but then fell back to regroup. We shifted into full disruption to keep the enemy spread out. With the numbers advantage if the enemy was allowed to regroup and turn on us we would be dead instantly. One DK called they where leaping into the back portion of the group, and another responded by leaping into the front half. The rest of the group focused damage at this time, and the enemy responded by focusing there damage/ults. There damage is actually able to kill one of our group member and nearly kill me. Although the day is saved by a Negate used by Voss. This ensured our victory and was the "Checkmate" of this fight.

In the 4th clip @ 3:30. The giant South Ga zerg Walks into Vinny's Negate. Nuff said

In the 6th clip @ 4:18. The giant South Ga zerg Walks into Vinny's Negate. Nuff said

In the 7th clip @ 5:05. SSJ uses a defensive Negate at the tower entrance to protect and allow the group to reform. Ashirok then lays an offensive negate in the base of the tower, and the enemy groups walks into their deaths.

Edit: @ 7:40 I am able to kill an enemy group leader with the aid of an NPC negate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUlQVrMi4kM

Negate is a super power full skill, but it requires others around you to be competent. Heck one day me and Vinny duo wiped a 24 man group on a breach at Ash with you guessed it a negate.

I see what you mean and what you are referring to, but I'm also seeing a lot of barriers getting thrown around. And in Honesty from what I can tell its these that are really keeping your guys up for long enough. A well placed ice comet has the same effect as a negate, but you can kill stuff with it. I once wiped a whole zerg that got stuck at a keep outer door with 1 ice comet, If I had placed a negate those kills wouldn't have happened, maybe only a couple perhaps, but that would have only been afterwards.

See negate is not about YOU killing things. It is about your group killing an enemy group. You are thinking of it as only defensive because it does not deal damage, but it can cause more effective damage than any other ult. For one the silence increase the damage of any steel tornadoes in your group, but it provides your group a invaluable break in the enemy's healing to rapidly kill them. When you fight outnumbered you live and die based on how fast you can kill. It may only buy you 2-3 seconds before the enemy healers can cc break and start healing again, but if your group is strong that will be enough to turn the tide.

Also sorcs are not the only class that can use meteor so I don't know why that is what it is being compared with. I am not evaluating it based on how effective it is when someone roams around solo. This about the what really matters in Cyrodiil, and all classes have ults that are almost useless while solo.

It´s got it´s use for your large grp. That´s fine. Still there is no purpose in running negate if you don´t have atleast 12 people in your grp. That´s not the case for any other ultimate in the game.

12 people ha? We have wiped full raids with small groups of people meaning like 4-6.

Also the argument about groups size effecting other ults is inaccurate. If you have a smaller group of people you are not getting the full potential power of war horn or barrier, but people still use it pal.

I´ll be bold on this one: If you could wipe a full raid of 24 people with a grp of 4 to 6 your grp would most likely have wiped them with any ultimate and negate had absolutely nothing to do with it.

We do that too with our grp.

I would greatly beg to differ, but lets speak about something not opinionated. Your argument was that it is bad ult because it is only useful in a group.

Well please look at the ENTIRE TEMPLAR CLASS!!!

I agree 100%

When compared to DKs and NBs it´s a shame what sorcerers and templars get. But atleast templars have a really good healing ultimate and a situational aoedmg one.

I find all the sorc ultimates completely lackluster. But maybe thats bc the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. I´ve not used a sorc ultimate for it´s intended purpose since the release of 1.6 (overload bar is nice though).

HELLO ZENIMAX PLEASE BUFF TEMPLAR AND SORC ULTIMATES BC THEY S*** COMPARED TO NB AND DK!!

YES but I still disagree

Overload is only a PvE skill, a VERY GOOD PvE skill, but still only for PvE. In PvP you can get 1 or 2 hits with it as long as you don't hit a DK or other tank, or anyone using a S&B obviously because of reflects, because they will just start rolling or move out of the way.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · August 2015

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Cheaper negates would be nice, cost of 120 ulitmate could make it a more interesting for pvp. Right now its mainly useful for countering standards and giving extra defense/sustain on the flags or breach.

I would also like a single target morph that removes the buffs from the target. What would you think about something like this?

YES. This game needs an offensive skill purge that is single target. Shouldn't be an ultimate though. Should be an alliance war skill.

Derra · August 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Cheaper negates would be nice, cost of 120 ulitmate could make it a more interesting for pvp. Right now its mainly useful for countering standards and giving extra defense/sustain on the flags or breach.

I would also like a single target morph that removes the buffs from the target. What would you think about something like this?

YES. This game needs an offensive skill purge that is single target. Shouldn't be an ultimate though. Should be an alliance war skill.

Now you´ve got me drooling...

Jar_Ek · August 2015

Negate might be useful in group PvP, but surely an ultimate should be useful in both PvP and pve... In fact an ultimate should be not only useful but actually good. Now as I understand it each class nominally has a defensive and an offensive ultimate. Negate was originally the sorcerer defensive one... So what fills that role now - an alliance war or vampire ultimate for sorcerers. So having a morph that supported PvP and one that was actually a powerful defense would be good.

Master_Kas · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Perfect solution. I was thinking the same.
I think, Negate Magic should be similar to Soul Assault and Dawnbreaker when it comes to uptime, considering the tiny effect of it. It deals no damage and does nothing against stamina. This high cost is not justified.

Wierdly enough, if you don't CC break it as a stamina nightblade (or walk out of its range) you cannot use surprise attack (stamina morph of veiled strike) nor ambush stamina morph, or the execute's stamina morph..

Propbably some wierd bug since those morphs once was magicka morphs

Ontopic: Agreed negate should be improved somehow.

EDIT: Can any sorc tell me this. If I use negate on a small group using barrier. The barrier won't come back after they cc-break negate? Unless someone casts it after ofcourse.

If that's the case it could maybe be decent for some groups running barriers when they enter keeps.

RoyJade · August 2015

Master_Kas wrote: »

Wierdly enough, if you don't CC break it as a stamina nightblade (or walk out of its range) you cannot use surprise attack (stamina morph of veiled strike) nor ambush stamina morph, or the execute's stamina morph..

It's because these skill are spell. Stamina spell, but spell, not competence. Same for three werewolf competence, for inner beast and for every class spell.

Negate is the only skill who have a good group utility for a sorc. It's the only one who don't work alone. Fourth comet and one negate dropped just before the impact can kill a full optimized zerg (especially board and dk zerg) if the timing is good. With one or two steel tornado, you can kill the few survivor.
But the skill still cost too much for the effect.

Jar_Ek · August 2015

So Negate is intended solely as a group support skill that doesn't help the caster directly in any way... how many other class ultimates do this? It should at least throw the caster a major protection buff.

Dracane · August 2015

Master_Kas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Perfect solution. I was thinking the same.
I think, Negate Magic should be similar to Soul Assault and Dawnbreaker when it comes to uptime, considering the tiny effect of it. It deals no damage and does nothing against stamina. This high cost is not justified.

Wierdly enough, if you don't CC break it as a stamina nightblade (or walk out of its range) you cannot use surprise attack (stamina morph of veiled strike) nor ambush stamina morph, or the execute's stamina morph..

Propbably some wierd bug since those morphs once was magicka morphs

Ontopic: Agreed negate should be improved somehow.

EDIT: Can any sorc tell me this. If I use negate on a small group using barrier. The barrier won't come back after they cc-break negate? Unless someone casts it after ofcourse.

If that's the case it could maybe be decent for some groups running barriers when they enter keeps.

Sadly, damage shields aren't affected at all. You cannot negate damage shields with it.

RoyJade · August 2015

The whole sorcerer tree is solo-playing focused, except this ultimate. Don't change that, but boost the utility (reduced cost, better buff, damage…).

Lucky28 · August 2015

How bout make It stun everyone caught in the bubble then Detonate the magicka of all those caught in the the effect dealing AoE damage equivalent to the max total Magicka of all those caught in the effect?.

The zerg ball's bane

manny254 · August 2015

Lucky28 wrote: »

How bout make It stun everyone caught in the bubble then Detonate the magicka of all those caught in the the effect dealing AoE damage equivalent to the max total Magicka of all those caught in the effect?.

The zerg ball's bane

Personally I think a reasonable change to it that would destroy zergs would be to allow it to act like it did pre nerf in regards to one type of skill. Ground based Healing aoe. This would break up some of the blobs that will be exacerbated in the next patch with the changes to damage.

Jar_Ek · August 2015

Hmm immediately detonation of all magicka DoTs, curse, and waiting damage effects for their full damage is an interesting idea.

Master_Kas · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Perfect solution. I was thinking the same.
I think, Negate Magic should be similar to Soul Assault and Dawnbreaker when it comes to uptime, considering the tiny effect of it. It deals no damage and does nothing against stamina. This high cost is not justified.

Wierdly enough, if you don't CC break it as a stamina nightblade (or walk out of its range) you cannot use surprise attack (stamina morph of veiled strike) nor ambush stamina morph, or the execute's stamina morph..

Propbably some wierd bug since those morphs once was magicka morphs

Ontopic: Agreed negate should be improved somehow.

EDIT: Can any sorc tell me this. If I use negate on a small group using barrier. The barrier won't come back after they cc-break negate? Unless someone casts it after ofcourse.

If that's the case it could maybe be decent for some groups running barriers when they enter keeps.

Sadly, damage shields aren't affected at all. You cannot negate damage shields with it.

Meh..

Thanks !

Septimus_Magna · August 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Cheaper negates would be nice, cost of 120 ulitmate could make it a more interesting for pvp. Right now its mainly useful for countering standards and giving extra defense/sustain on the flags or breach.

I would also like a single target morph that removes the buffs from the target. What would you think about something like this?

YES. This game needs an offensive skill purge that is single target. Shouldn't be an ultimate though. Should be an alliance war skill.

Removing buffs would be extremely strong so it should not be something that can be used frequently.

If you get someone close to execute range, remove their buffs and hit them with a burst they most likely wont survive.

Anazasi · August 2015

ha ha lets do the negate era all over again. Yes please bring back the negate wars.

Zlater · August 2015

Well at the end the negate wars weren't too bad at all. Everyone eventually figured out you could just break free. It sorta became a little underwhelming.

Derra · August 2015

manny254 wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

How bout make It stun everyone caught in the bubble then Detonate the magicka of all those caught in the the effect dealing AoE damage equivalent to the max total Magicka of all those caught in the effect?.

The zerg ball's bane

Personally I think a reasonable change to it that would destroy zergs would be to allow it to act like it did pre nerf in regards to one type of skill. Ground based Healing aoe. This would break up some of the blobs that will be exacerbated in the next patch with the changes to damage.

This is a proposal i could get behind. Getting rid of ground based healing was my initial though behind proposing a change to this ultimate anyway!

Zsymon · August 2015

manny254 wrote: »

Negate is still a very powerful ultimate. The fact that most people have stopped using it means that when one of our sorcs use it most enemies have forgotten how to react, and it is required skill for most sorcs in our groups.

They may not be as uber powerful as before, but they are one piece of the puzzle for strong groups. #Negates Win fights.

I don't understand, how is giving free cc immunity without doing any actual CC, "very powerful"? What part of this skill is very powerful?

Negate doesn't stop anyone from healing or from casting, all it does is force a Break Free for casters. It might as well just be a minor AoE stamina drain that only affects some players, does not sound powerful to me. There is a reason people don't use this, I don't think you're doing your class a favor arguing against upgrading this ability.

Lucky28 · August 2015

In PvE. Negate is awesome, Vet Dungeons, DSA, Trials etc. in PvP, it's very situational. i've found.

themdogesbite · August 2015

Make it cheaper, removing ground based aoe like it used to and perhaps dispell all shields? That way it should be usefull for both small and large groups. I know several times i wish i could dispell that 30k barrier for a timed group burst.

Maulkin · August 2015

Why anyone would use Negate is beyond me. I haven't seen one used since 1.5

It's like a hard CC that works on only half the player base (magic builds) and also you can walk and block while CCed. Fear is a far far better AoE CC than Negate without costing 220 points.

Maybe in 1.5 Negate was too strong, but it was kinda necessary to try and wipe blobs. It would remove all caltrops and healing springs and make sure no more of them appear inside the bubble. Now it's Caltrops and Springs everywhere and blobs don't die. GG

Yolokin_Swagonborn · August 2015

Negate was never overpowered even in 1.5. Everyone saying it was was just using it on pug zergs back when everyone ran magicka builds. Pug ignorance does not make it powerful.

The nerf to negate was ridiculous and unnecessary. Even before the nerf you could just break out of it and then cast all you wanted. Also you could pop your bats outside of it then walk in and it wouldn't erase existing effects. Imagine if I could "break out" of a Dragonknight standard or NB veil then just stand in it and keep DPSing without taking damage.

Negate was NEVER OP. Yes I know you slayed tons of bads with it. Taking on pugs with a TS group, that was the part that was OP.

eliisra · August 2015

Problem with Negate is current meta, as in bringing 30-60+ *** spamming Steel tornado with 100% armor pen to every single fight.

Negate does nothing against weapon attacks or stamina AoE. Negate does nothing against Barrier spam either. So it has restricted usage against your average fotm zerg. You're not removing their main protection(chaining Barriers, heals and Purge), you're not cancelling their main dmg output, since it's stamina.

It needs to have some sort of effect against weapon attacks and possibly even remove a few positive buffs from the enemy, to be really good.

Maulkin · August 2015

eliisra wrote: »

Problem with Negate is current meta, as in bringing 30-60+ *** spamming Steel tornado with 100% armor pen to every single fight.

Negate does nothing against weapon attacks or stamina AoE. Negate does nothing against Barrier spam either. So it has restricted usage against your average fotm zerg. You're not removing their main protection(chaining Barriers, heals and Purge), you're not cancelling their main dmg output, since it's stamina.

It needs to have some sort of effect against weapon attacks and possibly even remove a few positive buffs from the enemy, to be really good.

Exactly. But that is a double issue.

First off Steel Tornado needs a nerf the size of Tamriel. I can't believe they nerfed Impulse by increasing cost, reducing range, making it blockable while they allow this Steel Tornado meta which is stronger than Impulse ever was. I said it 8 months back, made a thread, got 20 pages of responses and devs didn't even pop in.

Secondly, in Imperial City there is a skeleton boss in the Memorial District who puts down an AoE attack that completely locks all your skills, snares and does high AoE damage.

My idea would be for 1 morph of Negate to be a Dispel where it removes all ground effects and all character buffs (like Ward, Barriers, Speed Buffs, Invisibility... anything)

The other morph could be a complete silence and a snare like the Skeleton boss. The skeleton boss' CC is not breakable, you have to roll-dodge out. That would be too strong for PvP perhaps make it a breakable silence and snare but also give heal and damage debuffs while inside the bubble.

It has to work against stamina builds though. Currently there are way too many counters and disables for magicka attacks and none whatsoever for stamina attacks.
- Defensive Stance is only against magicka
- Eclipse only against magicka
- Negate only against magicka
- Ball of Lightning only against magicka

They even removed the DW skill sparks that made melee attacks miss. The only skill that can negate/reflect some stamina damage is Scales, nothing else.

Zlater · August 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Why anyone would use Negate is beyond me. I haven't seen one used since 1.5

It's like a hard CC that works on only half the player base (magic builds) and also you can walk and block while CCed. Fear is a far far better AoE CC than Negate without costing 220 points.

Maybe in 1.5 Negate was too strong, but it was kinda necessary to try and wipe blobs. It would remove all caltrops and healing springs and make sure no more of them appear inside the bubble. Now it's Caltrops and Springs everywhere and blobs don't die. GG

Well if you have a group with really poor DPS and you are the healer or tank, which isn't the meta, you could use negate on bogdan to remove some of the fire circles to make it easier for your DPS to keep scratching their heads. I love it in DSA normal especially, comet would usually be the way to go, but since the AOE is much bigger on negate, you hit more dudes and it gives you a better breather. But not in every stage, just a couple of them xD

Maulkin · August 2015

Zlater wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Why anyone would use Negate is beyond me. I haven't seen one used since 1.5

It's like a hard CC that works on only half the player base (magic builds) and also you can walk and block while CCed. Fear is a far far better AoE CC than Negate without costing 220 points.

Maybe in 1.5 Negate was too strong, but it was kinda necessary to try and wipe blobs. It would remove all caltrops and healing springs and make sure no more of them appear inside the bubble. Now it's Caltrops and Springs everywhere and blobs don't die. GG

Well if you have a group with really poor DPS and you are the healer or tank, which isn't the meta, you could use negate on bogdan to remove some of the fire circles to make it easier for your DPS to keep scratching their heads. I love it in DSA normal especially, comet would usually be the way to go, but since the AOE is much bigger on negate, you hit more dudes and it gives you a better breather. But not in every stage, just a couple of them xD

Sorry, my bad for not clarifying, I meant in PvP. It's absolutely useless in PvP now.

olsborg · August 2015

Personally I find negate ultimate useless, completely useless for my style of play (solo/duo)

Heck id change it for an ultimate mines version:)

Dracane · August 2015

Right and Negate wasn't OP back then. Why can you break free from it ? Only because you weave your hands, doesn't mean this big globe of dark magic won't keep on silencing you.

But it's the same with all Sorcerer Ultimates. Negate is underwhelming and too expensive for its tiny effect, same goes for the Atronach. Seriously, there are plenty of adjustments and tweaks needed, but they just won't do anything and I don't understand why. How can you sleep at night while knowing in your mind, that there are so many useless Ultimates that don't even deserve the title Ultimate

And I'm not talking about Sorcerer ultimates only. Damn this game has so much room for improvements and could offer so many exciting build.