Seasonal Cap on CP -- Alternate Idea

Vashna · August 2015

There's no point in hiding my bias -- I'm one of the players with over 1000 CP. With that out of the way, I do recognize and accept the fact that the Champion System is a rather simplistic, boring, poorly balanced system that should have had limits/caps on day one. However, all indications from ZOS (in recent ESO Live broadcasts as well as the PTS templates) point to an initial seasonal cap of 300 CP. I think this amount is ridiculously low so I would like to suggest a different calculation...

First, some key points:

1. ZOS once stated that they wanted the Champion System to be a long-term solution for the next 10 years. (I'm not sure if this stance still holds, but anyone in software development -- myself being one of them -- knows that you should never design or expect an implementation or solution to last more than 5 years.)
2. ZOS stated that they expected the average player to gain 2 CP per day.

However, consider the fact the CP system was released in Update 6 on 3/3/2015, and Update 7 will be released almost exactly 6 months later on 8/31/2016. That means Update 6 lasted 180 days. At 2 CP per day (plus the additional 70 CP that many players started with on 3/3), the average player should have 420, by ZOS' own estimates. This means the average player is already beyond ZOS' proposed 300 CP cap. Granted, many players don't play the game every single day, but you also have Psijic Ambrosia for significant XP gains, which didn't exist when the CP system first came out.

My suggestion:
A. Assign a cap of 100 CP per month, incremented on the 1st of each month. So, in theory, if the cap is first introduced on 8/31, it would be 600 CP. At this rate, the CP system will last a full 3 years at which point players could attain 3600. That gives ZOS 2.5 years to come up with a better (or at least expanded) system, and if necessary, they can do a CP conversion to a new stat system so people don't lose out on all the XP they acquired.

B. If you stick to ZOS' estimates, the average player would gain 60 CP per month, putting them slightly above the middle for a 100-CP month. This scale is fair because it still provides an opportunity for players to go beyond the average and be rewarded, but not get carried away.

C. Eliminate enlightenment for any player who is currently 2/3 of the CP limit or above. Going back to the 9/1/2015 example of 600 CP, this means anyone that is 400+ CP would no longer get enlightenment, thereby slowing their ascent to the current cap. (This may not seem like much, but if this concept was in place from the beginning, I personally would have 127 CP less than I do now.)

D. Award double enlightenment (2 CP) per day to any player that is between 1/3 and 2/3 of the current cap. In the same 9/1/2015 example, players between 200 and 399 CP would receive 2 enlightenment per day to help them catch up.

E. Award quadruple enlightenment (4 CP) per day to any player less than 1/3 of the current cap. This means any players who rarely play, or more importantly the brand new players starting at 0 CP have a means of catching up by gaining points 4x faster than people at the top. This rate will obviously slow as they eventually climb to the top 1/3.

F. Allow players to bank up to 50 CP worth of enlightenment. This accounts for more than 2 weeks of inactivity for a casual player on the bottom third bracket.

Conclusion:
Starting a seasonal cap at 300 is drastically low for a system that has already been out 6 months. This kind of cap would have made sense back in June/July, but not now. Yes, such a low cap will cripple the top tier with 1k+ CP, so many players won't care about this (or may even rejoice in glee). But there are a large number of players at or above 300 CP also, so you will have many players buying DLCs and not gaining anything. Sticking to 100 per month is reasonable because it gives the CP system a 3-year lifespan, and with DLCs projected to be released by quarter, that's 10-11 DLCs over that timeframe. By then, ZOS should have a better system in place for long-term advancement.

Using an existing mechanic (enlightenment) as a catch-up mechanic should require minimal coding, and it's a mechanic that players are already familiar with. Dividing the player base into thirds (newbies, average, and top tier) keeps things simple while preventing anyone from being the top 1%. (Now they're the top 33%, until the rest catch up.)

Finally, consider that on 10/1, the seasonal cap in my example would increase to 700. This means that players still working toward the 600 CP cap may find themselves dropping from the top 2/3 bracket to the middle third, at which point they start gaining double enlightenment per day to help catch back up. By December this cap would be 900, as the new DLC (Orsinium) rolls out. Players would be able to tap 25% of the 3600 CP system by this point, which is not unreasonable for a system that has been in play for 9 months by then. This also means that players in my situation would remain locked at no CP gain through the rest of 2015, which I think is fair to preserve balance, as long as we can progressively use more and more of the points we already earned while others are given enlightenment bonuses to more easily catch up.

SafiyerAmitora · August 2015

Actually sounds pretty interesting. o.O

Zavus · August 2015

This is so good.

NGP · August 2015

I was thinking I would not buy IC before I have 1k cp. But grinding even 100 cp would bore me to want to quit the game. So 300 cp is not a small amount.
Or maybe I'll just go to play on tse instead when they are available.

monkeymystic · August 2015

ZOS has to realise that the players that actually PAY for a subscription are also often the ones who play more then average.

Who wants 10% more exp from subbing if CP cap is set too low? These players will not gain anything from this then, and quit subbing since ZOS will break CP system completely with a cap set at a low number.

And if they all of a sudden makes most subbing players *lose* a lot of their CP with a low cap, then you can bet many will quit because they feel they lost all their playtime, as well as unsub because they don't gain anything from subscription.

I Agree with the original post, and monthly raise in cap is needed, but a cap too low will make the players leave.

Dagoth_Rac · August 2015

I play every day, usually multiple hours. I have about 280 CP. I barely stay ahead of my Enlightenment. The content I do most nights - the vet pledge, some PvP, a Trial, can take a few hours and do not give anywhere near the 500K XP you would need to acquire 2 CP per day. I think ZOS' belief that 2 CP a day is "normal" is way off base. Doing actual content does not gain much XP. No one is gaining 2 CP a day as a side effect of natural gameplay. You need to dedicate yourself to gaining that much XP.

One of my guild mates was unemployed for many months since the Spring. He was on like 24/7. I think he has like 415 CP or something. That is the most in our guild. We are not super pro or anything, but have cleared Sanctum many times and are definitely above average players. I don't get the impression he was trying to gain CP, though. He was joining all kinds of Australian and other foreign guilds so he always had someone to do with PvP and Trials with, even at odd hours.

I am pretty agnostic about CP, though. If the original poster has 1000 and I have 280, I am not terribly upset. But I think the guy with 1000 CP is in a bad position to judge what normal is!

Vegaroth · August 2015

Im more inclinate to no cap, instead make xp curve (incremental) so the higer amount of points u have the higer amount of xp u will need to attain next CP, that would keep the interest on playing and at the same time will give oportunity to low cp chars to come close to the higer cp chars..... with the cap theres no real incentive to keep playing once reached the cap and we will end seeing ppl leaving the game until nxt season (something similar to wow and the instances and raid where once obtained the gear ppl want, they stop playing until next expancion / new instance/ raid)....

gilbegger · August 2015

no

Rook_Master · August 2015

600 cap is too high even for right now.

More realistic would be like 300 or so at this point.

TheShadowScout · August 2015

I think the more realistic assumtion would be that "normal" players will get one c-point per day on average, maybe a second one now and then...
After all, a great many people cannot on average spend more then an hour per day on their gaming, some may do a quick trip to tamriel every day between the end of their workday and their bedtime, others may not be able to spare the time on weekdays but then put in their six, seven hours on the weekends to do it all in one stack...
And its not entirely true that those who pay are automatically those who play more. Yes, some, but not all. I would still wager the majority of players are not spending six hours or more every single day in ESO...

As for numbers, well, I play every day, often two or three hours, and am somewhere around 260 c-points right now. One hour for the enlightment first C-point, and the rest depends... if I do something expee-heavy like clearning cyrodil dvelves, I might get a second. If I do something different, like the craglorn gathering course or roleplaying, I am obviously not going to get a full c-point unless I play a lot longer then usual. Now, I don't do grinding per se, since I generally try to avoid the feeling of my brain cells liquefying and sloshing around my skull which such mindlessly repetetive activities seem to incur... so I guess some people will have gotten a good deal more c-points... I have some (possibly unfounded) thoughts about them too, though I can't really post them here or the moderators will scold me again...

But back to the matter at hand, I personally would consider, say, a 360 cap (as in, 10%) for the moment more then adequate, and wouldn't shed a tear for all those who may or may not have strained some game mechanic to the edge of abuse to already grab themselves over 1000 of those...
Then they could increase that cap by, say, 180 every three months, which from what I hear is their intended release for major updates, and get by with the system for five years...
And it will finally reassure the newer players that they won't get pasted all over cyrodil due to lack to c-points. (they will just get pasted all over cyrodil through lack of super-improved endgame gear, nifty food buffs, full stacks of tri-potions, and general difference in skill since there are some really hardcore PvPers out there who have gotten pretty good at this... but hey, that's like this in every MMO, and with ESO they at least have the option to counter their quality with bringing more quantity...

)

Increased c-point costs on the other hand are redundant, since we already have diminishing returns... I'd rather get a steady sense of accomplishment with regularly adding c-points that just mean less and less then having to wait longer and longer until that "ding, you got better" feeling...

The idea of adjusting enlightment per c-point values depending on fraction of cap is a valid one though. I'd suggest giving those from none to 1/3 cap quadruple enlightment, those from 1/3 to 2/3 double enlightment, and those from 2/3 to cap normal enlightment, with none for those above the cap.

Vashna · August 2015

I appreciate everyone's feedback here, and want to respond to some points and offer up additional information.

1. Update 7 = More XP
ZOS is increasing the experience offered by veteran quests by 50% in Update 7. They also further increased the experience of high level mobs in IC. Also, ZOS has realized what many failing development teams have in the past, which is the only way to keep going is to release grind-based content. Many players will be grinding mobs and running dungeons nonstop in Update 7 for TV stones, upgraded undaunted helmets, etc. So while many players may not actually gain 2 CP per day at their current rate of play, you may be closer to this rate in the next update. Also, with my proposed double/quadruple enlightenment mechanic, you'd start getting 3-4 CP per day.

2. Trials = Horrible XP
Trials are completely imbalanced when it comes to return on investment. ZOS recognized this and tried to solve it by multiplying mob experience x12, but they screwed this up and for one day, players started grinding trash for lots of CP (particularly at the start of Hel Ra) before they reversed part of this change. As it stands, a competent group can complete SO in about 30-40 minutes, including formation/prep time. (Elite groups do this in half the time.) Finishing this trial will net you 80K XP. This is horrible for the time spent. I think they should consider tripling the XP of trial bosses so that running it successfully once will net you more than 1/2 CP, and running it twice will offer more than 1 CP. Including my double/quadruple enlightenment mechanic in this scenario would mean a casual player that completes SO once per night would walk away with 2-3 CP.

3. Subscriptions
Agree with this point completely. ZOS may or may not realize this, but many players that subscribe, myself included, only do so for the +10% XP bonus. The +10% gold bonus is also nice, but nothing significant. The +10% inspiration is pointless when you can just make an alt, spend 30 CP in the Tower sign and get +20% inspiration. And for someone trying to optimize research timers, you can just wait until you start researching the 5th or 6th trait to start tapping into this (i.e. the subscription is temporary). If a small CP cap is instituted, some will most definitely end subscriptions immediately because they will be gaining 0 XP.

4. 600 CP Too High
I respect and understand where you coming from with this statement, but I think you are viewing this from the context of the current game (Update 6), minus my proposed changes. Some of the players that responded to my thread mention having CP in the 200-300 range, which means under this new system, you'd start getting 2 enlightenment every day. This means you'd effectively double your rate of gain toward the CP cap.

ZOS_RichLambert · August 2015

This is just too good to only get a /lurk....

First off, great post @Vashna! This is the kind of post I love reading - it's well thought out and you've articulated your concerns perfectly. Really appreciate the time you took to write it.

Couple of quick notes:

Just because the templates on PTS have 300 CP, doesn't mean that's what the cap will be when the system is released.
We know the break down of CP per player and will make sure the cap we choose impacts as few people as possible.
The current design allows you to keep earning CP past the cap, just at a slower pace. You will only be able to spend CP up to the cap though. (i.e. - no lost CP and you can keep grinding away if that's what you love doing)
Leveraging enlightenment is a good idea. We need to do more to bootstrap people up though.

Again, thanks for the post! Keep 'em coming!

Tyr · August 2015

Vashna wrote: »

There's no point in hiding my bias -- I'm one of the players with over 1000 CP. With that out of the way, I do recognize and accept the fact that the Champion System is a rather simplistic, boring, poorly balanced system that should have had limits/caps on day one. However, all indications from ZOS (in recent ESO Live broadcasts as well as the PTS templates) point to an initial seasonal cap of 300 CP. I think this amount is ridiculously low so I would like to suggest a different calculation...

First, some key points:

1. ZOS once stated that they wanted the Champion System to be a long-term solution for the next 10 years. (I'm not sure if this stance still holds, but anyone in software development -- myself being one of them -- knows that you should never design or expect an implementation or solution to last more than 5 years.)
2. ZOS stated that they expected the average player to gain 2 CP per day.

However, consider the fact the CP system was released in Update 6 on 3/3/2015, and Update 7 will be released almost exactly 6 months later on 8/31/2016. That means Update 6 lasted 180 days. At 2 CP per day (plus the additional 70 CP that many players started with on 3/3), the average player should have 420, by ZOS' own estimates. This means the average player is already beyond ZOS' proposed 300 CP cap. Granted, many players don't play the game every single day, but you also have Psijic Ambrosia for significant XP gains, which didn't exist when the CP system first came out.

My suggestion:
A. Assign a cap of 100 CP per month, incremented on the 1st of each month. So, in theory, if the cap is first introduced on 8/31, it would be 600 CP. At this rate, the CP system will last a full 3 years at which point players could attain 3600. That gives ZOS 2.5 years to come up with a better (or at least expanded) system, and if necessary, they can do a CP conversion to a new stat system so people don't lose out on all the XP they acquired.

B. If you stick to ZOS' estimates, the average player would gain 60 CP per month, putting them slightly above the middle for a 100-CP month. This scale is fair because it still provides an opportunity for players to go beyond the average and be rewarded, but not get carried away.

C. Eliminate enlightenment for any player who is currently 2/3 of the CP limit or above. Going back to the 9/1/2015 example of 600 CP, this means anyone that is 400+ CP would no longer get enlightenment, thereby slowing their ascent to the current cap. (This may not seem like much, but if this concept was in place from the beginning, I personally would have 127 CP less than I do now.)

D. Award double enlightenment (2 CP) per day to any player that is between 1/3 and 2/3 of the current cap. In the same 9/1/2015 example, players between 200 and 399 CP would receive 2 enlightenment per day to help them catch up.

E. Award quadruple enlightenment (4 CP) per day to any player less than 1/3 of the current cap. This means any players who rarely play, or more importantly the brand new players starting at 0 CP have a means of catching up by gaining points 4x faster than people at the top. This rate will obviously slow as they eventually climb to the top 1/3.

F. Allow players to bank up to 50 CP worth of enlightenment. This accounts for more than 2 weeks of inactivity for a casual player on the bottom third bracket.

Conclusion:
Starting a seasonal cap at 300 is drastically low for a system that has already been out 6 months. This kind of cap would have made sense back in June/July, but not now. Yes, such a low cap will cripple the top tier with 1k+ CP, so many players won't care about this (or may even rejoice in glee). But there are a large number of players at or above 300 CP also, so you will have many players buying DLCs and not gaining anything. Sticking to 100 per month is reasonable because it gives the CP system a 3-year lifespan, and with DLCs projected to be released by quarter, that's 10-11 DLCs over that timeframe. By then, ZOS should have a better system in place for long-term advancement.

Using an existing mechanic (enlightenment) as a catch-up mechanic should require minimal coding, and it's a mechanic that players are already familiar with. Dividing the player base into thirds (newbies, average, and top tier) keeps things simple while preventing anyone from being the top 1%. (Now they're the top 33%, until the rest catch up.)

Finally, consider that on 10/1, the seasonal cap in my example would increase to 700. This means that players still working toward the 600 CP cap may find themselves dropping from the top 2/3 bracket to the middle third, at which point they start gaining double enlightenment per day to help catch back up. By December this cap would be 900, as the new DLC (Orsinium) rolls out. Players would be able to tap 25% of the 3600 CP system by this point, which is not unreasonable for a system that has been in play for 9 months by then. This also means that players in my situation would remain locked at no CP gain through the rest of 2015, which I think is fair to preserve balance, as long as we can progressively use more and more of the points we already earned while others are given enlightenment bonuses to more easily catch up.

First of all..If you have over 1000CP and you have a full time job in software development, you botted to get there. Grinding 2 million XP per day for 180 days is impossible unless you're playing at least 10 hours a day on average, so good job on cheating/lying.

And before you try to defend yourself, ZOS has stated that there are less than 35 people with above 650CP as of a couple of weeks ago and the highest CP player had less than 1200 as of a couple of weeks ago, so if you have over 1000CP you are among a handful of people in the whole game who cheated to get there.

As far as your estimates for the average player go, they are just as ludicrous.

The average player never made it to VR14 and has stopped playing long ago.
The average active casual player(who plays at least once a week) in any given MMO plays an average of 10 hours per week or less so they will just barely be keeping up with the 1 enlightened CP per day.
ZOS had to increase the enlightened CP buffer from 3 CP to 12 a while ago and they wouldn't have done this if a significant number of people weren't falling behind the 2 CP every 6 days marker, much less 2CP every day.

If you run a bell curve distribution with 180CP(1 per day) at the 50th percentile and 35 people above 750CP then you find that the number of people above 300 CP is going to be less than 2% and as low as .1%.
2% is a best case measure if you "squeeze" the entire left side of the curve toward 180(so basically excluding all new player and players who don't have any CP yet) and the far right side of the curve(the 35 people above 750CP) toward 1200(so basically assuming almost all of those 35 people have very close to 1200 CP).

So putting the cap at 600 per DLC "Season" is pointless since 99%+ of people will never reach that cap.

Putting the cap at 300 when Orsinium launches ~3 months from now will put the 50th percentile very close to the Cap at that point, which is likely why ZOS is targeting that number.

Of course all of this is a generous estimate, because the reality is that ZOS just saw an influx of Console players who are more likely to have 0 CP by the time they implement the cap than 180, so the XP increases in IC will correct for that skew on the left side of the curve at best.

Kuroinu · August 2015

Your suggestion is a pretty solid alternative to what we are assuming is going to be a low cap. Even though Rich said something about a 300 seasonal cap in a past ESO Live, he also did say they'd like feedback on it. So it's all still up in the air!

I think I have around 45 CP at the moment and I haven't applied these to anything, however I am aware that the vast majority of CP "issues" are to do with complaints coming from the PvP side of the game. So I believe most suggestions should be applied to PvP only.

I actually have no problems with there being no cap, however if a cap was applied I can envision it as just another level cap e.g. I'm VR16, CP Rank 300. Thinking of it this way makes me cringe and almost kills the fun in the system for me. While your suggestion isn't quite that simple, I like the freedom of the current CP System.

The current system is fine when applied to PvE and is a great incentive to continue playing and gaining points in your own way. I'd prefer they apply changes in such a way that it only effects PvP.

EDIT: Oh hey Rich posted. I spent about 40 mins here contemplating ideas without refreshing the page, lol. I guess you don't need to read the first paragraph!

Yonkit · August 2015

Tyr wrote: »

Vashna wrote: »

There's no point in hiding my bias -- I'm one of the players with over 1000 CP. With that out of the way, I do recognize and accept the fact that the Champion System is a rather simplistic, boring, poorly balanced system that should have had limits/caps on day one. However, all indications from ZOS (in recent ESO Live broadcasts as well as the PTS templates) point to an initial seasonal cap of 300 CP. I think this amount is ridiculously low so I would like to suggest a different calculation...

First, some key points:

1. ZOS once stated that they wanted the Champion System to be a long-term solution for the next 10 years. (I'm not sure if this stance still holds, but anyone in software development -- myself being one of them -- knows that you should never design or expect an implementation or solution to last more than 5 years.)
2. ZOS stated that they expected the average player to gain 2 CP per day.

However, consider the fact the CP system was released in Update 6 on 3/3/2015, and Update 7 will be released almost exactly 6 months later on 8/31/2016. That means Update 6 lasted 180 days. At 2 CP per day (plus the additional 70 CP that many players started with on 3/3), the average player should have 420, by ZOS' own estimates. This means the average player is already beyond ZOS' proposed 300 CP cap. Granted, many players don't play the game every single day, but you also have Psijic Ambrosia for significant XP gains, which didn't exist when the CP system first came out.

My suggestion:
A. Assign a cap of 100 CP per month, incremented on the 1st of each month. So, in theory, if the cap is first introduced on 8/31, it would be 600 CP. At this rate, the CP system will last a full 3 years at which point players could attain 3600. That gives ZOS 2.5 years to come up with a better (or at least expanded) system, and if necessary, they can do a CP conversion to a new stat system so people don't lose out on all the XP they acquired.

B. If you stick to ZOS' estimates, the average player would gain 60 CP per month, putting them slightly above the middle for a 100-CP month. This scale is fair because it still provides an opportunity for players to go beyond the average and be rewarded, but not get carried away.

C. Eliminate enlightenment for any player who is currently 2/3 of the CP limit or above. Going back to the 9/1/2015 example of 600 CP, this means anyone that is 400+ CP would no longer get enlightenment, thereby slowing their ascent to the current cap. (This may not seem like much, but if this concept was in place from the beginning, I personally would have 127 CP less than I do now.)

D. Award double enlightenment (2 CP) per day to any player that is between 1/3 and 2/3 of the current cap. In the same 9/1/2015 example, players between 200 and 399 CP would receive 2 enlightenment per day to help them catch up.

E. Award quadruple enlightenment (4 CP) per day to any player less than 1/3 of the current cap. This means any players who rarely play, or more importantly the brand new players starting at 0 CP have a means of catching up by gaining points 4x faster than people at the top. This rate will obviously slow as they eventually climb to the top 1/3.

F. Allow players to bank up to 50 CP worth of enlightenment. This accounts for more than 2 weeks of inactivity for a casual player on the bottom third bracket.

Conclusion:
Starting a seasonal cap at 300 is drastically low for a system that has already been out 6 months. This kind of cap would have made sense back in June/July, but not now. Yes, such a low cap will cripple the top tier with 1k+ CP, so many players won't care about this (or may even rejoice in glee). But there are a large number of players at or above 300 CP also, so you will have many players buying DLCs and not gaining anything. Sticking to 100 per month is reasonable because it gives the CP system a 3-year lifespan, and with DLCs projected to be released by quarter, that's 10-11 DLCs over that timeframe. By then, ZOS should have a better system in place for long-term advancement.

Using an existing mechanic (enlightenment) as a catch-up mechanic should require minimal coding, and it's a mechanic that players are already familiar with. Dividing the player base into thirds (newbies, average, and top tier) keeps things simple while preventing anyone from being the top 1%. (Now they're the top 33%, until the rest catch up.)

Finally, consider that on 10/1, the seasonal cap in my example would increase to 700. This means that players still working toward the 600 CP cap may find themselves dropping from the top 2/3 bracket to the middle third, at which point they start gaining double enlightenment per day to help catch back up. By December this cap would be 900, as the new DLC (Orsinium) rolls out. Players would be able to tap 25% of the 3600 CP system by this point, which is not unreasonable for a system that has been in play for 9 months by then. This also means that players in my situation would remain locked at no CP gain through the rest of 2015, which I think is fair to preserve balance, as long as we can progressively use more and more of the points we already earned while others are given enlightenment bonuses to more easily catch up.

First of all..If you have over 1000CP and you have a full time job in software development, you botted to get there. Grinding 2 million XP per day for 180 days is impossible unless you're playing at least 10 hours a day on average, so good job on cheating/lying.

And before you try to defend yourself, ZOS has stated that there are less than 35 people with above 650CP as of a couple of weeks ago and the highest CP player had less than 1200 as of a couple of weeks ago, so if you have over 1000CP you are among a handful of people in the whole game who cheated to get there.

As far as your estimates for the average player go, they are just as ludicrous.

The average player never made it to VR14 and has stopped playing long ago.
The average active casual player(who plays at least once a week) in any given MMO plays an average of 10 hours per week or less so they will just barely be keeping up with the 1 enlightened CP per day.
ZOS had to increase the enlightened CP buffer from 3 CP to 12 a while ago and they wouldn't have done this if a significant number of people weren't falling behind the 2 CP every 6 days marker, much less 2CP every day.

If you run a bell curve distribution with 180CP(1 per day) at the 50th percentile and 35 people above 750CP then you find that the number of people above 300 CP is going to be less than 2% and as low as .1%.
2% is a best case measure if you "squeeze" the entire left side of the curve toward 180(so basically excluding all new player and players who don't have any CP yet) and the far right side of the curve(the 35 people above 750CP) toward 1200(so basically assuming almost all of those 35 people have very close to 1200 CP).

So putting the cap at 600 per DLC "Season" is pointless since 99%+ of people will never reach that cap.

Putting the cap at 300 when Orsinium launches ~3 months from now will put the 50th percentile very close to the Cap at that point, which is likely why ZOS is targeting that number.

Of course all of this is a generous estimate, because the reality is that ZOS just saw an influx of Console players who are more likely to have 0 CP by the time they implement the cap than 180, so the XP increases in IC will correct for that skew on the left side of the curve at best.

YOU DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY THAN ME, YOU'RE A DIRTY CHEATER LIAR AND ***.

Just go away. I don't even care about your opinion when you start off with indiscriminate bs slung at another player.

Kuroinu · August 2015

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

This is just too good to only get a /lurk....

First off, great post @Vashna! This is the kind of post I love reading - it's well thought out and you've articulated your concerns perfectly. Really appreciate the time you took to write it.

Couple of quick notes:
Just because the templates on PTS have 300 CP, doesn't mean that's what the cap will be when the system is released.

We know the break down of CP per player and will make sure the cap we choose impacts as few people as possible.

The current design allows you to keep earning CP past the cap, just at a slower pace. You will only be able to spend CP up to the cap though. (i.e. - no lost CP and you can keep grinding away if that's what you love doing)

Leveraging enlightenment is a good idea. We need to do more to bootstrap people up though.

Again, thanks for the post! Keep 'em coming!

I highlighted the point that concerns me the most. I can't really elaborate on it much until we've actually experienced the updated version of the system for a while and have acquired a feel for it, so to speak.

But for me, being able to grind out CP and not being able to use them feels sort of frustrating. Like something you've earned but you can't use it, just doesn't jive with me and feels...wrong, lol.

silky_soft · August 2015

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

This is just too good to only get a /lurk....

First off, great post @Vashna! This is the kind of post I love reading - it's well thought out and you've articulated your concerns perfectly. Really appreciate the time you took to write it.

Couple of quick notes:
Just because the templates on PTS have 300 CP, doesn't mean that's what the cap will be when the system is released.

We know the break down of CP per player and will make sure the cap we choose impacts as few people as possible.

The current design allows you to keep earning CP past the cap, just at a slower pace. You will only be able to spend CP up to the cap though. (i.e. - no lost CP and you can keep grinding away if that's what you love doing)

Leveraging enlightenment is a good idea. We need to do more to bootstrap people up though.

Again, thanks for the post! Keep 'em coming!

Interesting, seems to not align with your thoughts on AP and IC dlc. But cool.

Increase XP from pvp by 10x please.

Sentinel · August 2015

I'd also like to see no particular cap on enlightenment. I have 116 CPs myself and, despite having been around since launch, I don't play often. I accrue more enlightenment than sand in Alik'r!

Vashna · August 2015

Tyr wrote: »

First of all..If you have over 1000CP and you have a full time job in software development, you botted to get there. Grinding 2 million XP per day for 180 days is impossible unless you're playing at least 10 hours a day on average, so good job on cheating/lying.

And before you try to defend yourself, ZOS has stated that there are less than 35 people with above 650CP as of a couple of weeks ago and the highest CP player had less than 1200 as of a couple of weeks ago, so if you have over 1000CP you are among a handful of people in the whole game who cheated to get there.

Tyr, I don't know you, and you don't know me, but I think your comments were inappropriate, not so much for the name calling, because I've heard worse, but your gross assumptions about what is possible or impossible in this game.

The people that know me in this game know that I abhor hacks, cheating and exploits and not only avoid them at all costs, but actively report these issues so they can be fixed. I don't do this just for moral/ethical reasons, but also for practical purposes... It's difficult if not impossible for developers to balance a game when there's underlying bugs that skew performance numbers.

Speaking of numbers, let's get real here... You claim 2 million XP per day is impossible, unless I play 10 hours per day. By that simple math, we're talking 200k per hour. Question: Have you ever visited any end-game grind spots in this game? Cracked Wood Cave in Cyrodiil? Vahtacen? Nilata Ruins in Bangkorai? Hallin's Stand (pre-quest)? Yanurah's Respite? Motalion Necropolis? Even before the introduction of Psijic Ambrosia, these spots were offering 500-1250k per hour.

I can't speak for the DC and EP factions because I play AD, but back in March when hundreds of players were grinding Skyreach Catacombs (the Craglorn dungeon that got hotfix nerfed on 3/7), I was in Bangkorai defining the grind strategies still used by many AD players (knowingly or unknowingly) to this day. In particular, I showed players how to maximize the spider spawns in Nilata Ruins, and this information spread over time.

In March, people were still in the "sticks and skirts" mindset, and the few "explorers" that showed up were standing still and spamming elemental wave, until these players realized they had no hope of keeping up with a stamina speed build. I showed many players the true grind potential of the Steel Tornado / Quick Cloak build, using sets like Vicious for sustained burst speed and stamina generation that allowed people to break 1 million XP per hour with ease. My personal record with a grind partner was 1.3 million (3.1 CP) per hour, and since the introduction of Psijic Ambrosia (+50% xp), I've attained 4.5 CP per hour at Nilata.

That is not to say Nilata is the best grind spot in the game. I've heard of some superior spots in Reapers March and The Rift for other factions. Maybe they exist, maybe not, but either way... there are many spots that far exceed your assumption of 200k per hour. In fact, grinding aside, you also have VDSA, which many groups (including mine) farmed over the last 9 months in our quest for master weapons, legendary jewelry, etc. These groups complete the arena in less than 1 hour, obtaining ~250k per run. If you pop a Psijic Ambrosia, you can basically get 1 CP for each run. Given the dynamics, RNG and competitiveness of the arena, players can spend an entire afternoon in there and not even feel the boredom of a typical grind.

The real math is this... Given 1000 CP, minus the 70 CP granted free to v14's in Update 6, brings the total down to 930. Since Update 6 has been live for ~180 days, you are talking 5.2 CP per day, of which 1 CP is enlightenment, so the "effective XP" rate is 4.5 CP per day. Prior to Psijic Ambrosia, this could be obtained in 2-2.5 hours; with the new XP drink/scroll buff, this can be obtained in about 1.5 hours for a serious grinder.

One should also realize a fundamental flaw in the CP system -- That every CP point requires the same 400,000 XP. As players gain more CP, increasing in power, they are able to kill the same mobs at a faster rate. In other words, players with higher CP will grind faster (more effectively) than players with low CP, causing a power gap. This is no different than the socio-economic issue of rich vs. poor, where the wealthy (having more money) are able to make additional money faster than the poor person. This is the same inherent, mathematical problem.

Considering I have a 3-hour daily commute and work over 9 hours per day, Monday to Thursday, I typically spend Friday mornings and Saturday mornings grinding, leaving me the rest of those days (and the week) to do whatever I want, in-game or offline. I pride myself on efficient gameplay; I look for any and every opportunity to save time for the specific reason that I don't want to be grinding 24 hours a day. This is why I even went after CP passives like "Master Gatherer", just so I could loot resources twice as fast -- people laughed and called me crazy, but those seconds add up over the course of a day

.

Finally, I plan to upload some of these grind videos to my Youtube channel, showing the XP potential at places like Nilata Ruins, Yanurah's Respite, etc. I hope watching them will show you how far off your claim is that it requires 10 hours to gain 2 million XP in this game. Feel free to contact me in game with any questions, theory crafting or discussions of strategy. I've always been willing to share my thoughts and help those willing to learn.

timidobserver · August 2015

This is a good thread. Ultimately, no fix they implement will be future proof unless they make people catch up faster based on how far off the cap they are like you have described.

Elder_III · August 2015

This is one of the better OPs that I have seen on these forums, well thought out, constructive, and seemingly fairly reasonable. Nice work.

As for the 300 CP per Season idea - I thought a Season would be the 3 months between DLCs? If so that's (potentially) 100 CP per month, which is a ton more then I'll ever get in a months time and I have the luxury of playing allot more then the average ESO member.

Prizax · August 2015

wow @Vashna nice thread, been a while since I enjoyed reading a thread, also thanks for all the information and tips :P

F7sus4 · August 2015

Suggestions A-B: OK!
Suggestions C-F: Non-clever way of destroying initially clever idea. Just don't.

Mawgusta · August 2015

ZoS should add more grind spots, and completely boost all nerfed exp spots back to 100%. There wouldn't be this problem if grind spots weren't super secret sometimes. The ones you find or hear about and go too 10 people are there and you get abysmal exp. Where's the fun? How many people wouldn't mind grinding these CPS if a developer selfish system wasn't in place? Selfish by, "Oh hey, we're going to make 10 mob packs every where but nerf the turd out of the exp from them so players don't level/ farm CPs on them"? What kind of bull*#$ mentality is that as developer? You make a pack of 10 mobs that can wreck me if I don't have decent gear/build and then give me 60exp per mob from it, while just outside the worst players could be getting 450exp/cp from killing just one mob.. That right there is when you have to start thinking of what type of just don't care how the players feel mentality you're dealing with. Kim Jong-un mentality.

Edit: P.S original poster.. Yes stamina builds are nice grinders with steel tornado which is toned down on the PTS. But you're not out grinding a magicka destruction staff sorc. Quick blade is moot to streak plus speed buff and magicka return on killing blows with destruction abilities.

Vanzen · August 2015

I always start my day in Eso by using my enlightment to get my 1cp. it takes like 10/15 minutes, then I do pvp like 4/5 hours.
I have 335 cp. There is no way w/o grinding to get more than 1.5 cp a day wich is already a lot.
I ve recently lvled a new char to v14 and in the process got a nice chunk of cp, so i know that you can get like the OP says like 3cp per hours grinding, but in my opinion, this is not playing, its "working" and mind numbing. Why one would do that every day baffles me. My 15 minutes grinding everyday is already getting on my nerves enough ...
I think the cap for this dlc should be 360 to unlock the first 120 passive. And then so on : 360 cp each new dlc.

Skcarkden · August 2015

As someone who is still not even level 50 because i take my time reading lore/doing quests and consider consequences before i pick a red option. I can only say i know i won't ever give PvP a serious try because i'll never ever get enough CP to be even

Stikato · August 2015

This thread makes me want to quit the game tbh. Been playing a few hours a day since launch. I thought that was a lot.

ZOS should have addressed this from the beginning. All this talk about removing VR, gear seasons, CP caps. There is no plan. Just going from day to day, week to week. Maybe a couple month plan at the most.

I know people who live like that, and they aren't very successful either.

Why create a system that rewards .01% of the playerbase and pisses off at least 50% of the rest? Even from a business standpoint, this doesn't make any...oh xp pots..right.

F it

Spottswoode · August 2015

I made a moving CP cap suggestion some time ago in regards to XP scrolls for the same purpose. But I like this better. My only concern is that the bottom level "hyper grinding" will eventually be of a large enough amount to seriously deter new players and give players a consistent means of trolling newbies. CP brackets would fix that, however.

Sausage · August 2015

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

This is just too good to only get a /lurk....

First off, great post @Vashna! This is the kind of post I love reading - it's well thought out and you've articulated your concerns perfectly. Really appreciate the time you took to write it.

Couple of quick notes:
Just because the templates on PTS have 300 CP, doesn't mean that's what the cap will be when the system is released.

We know the break down of CP per player and will make sure the cap we choose impacts as few people as possible.

The current design allows you to keep earning CP past the cap, just at a slower pace. You will only be able to spend CP up to the cap though. (i.e. - no lost CP and you can keep grinding away if that's what you love doing)

Leveraging enlightenment is a good idea. We need to do more to bootstrap people up though.

Again, thanks for the post! Keep 'em coming!

/lurk

MaxwellC · August 2015

Just saying why isn't the OP working at ZoS? This post was actually very interesting and made a lot of sense in reference to the on-going balancing issue with CP.

If I could favorite a post this would be the first.

Morvul · August 2015

The tiering cap system proposed by the OP sounds like a very, very good idea to me.

That said, in my opinion the numbers suggested for the initial ties are to high