Seasonal Cap on CP -- Alternate Idea

Kaliki

reklaw67 wrote: »

The pvp was awesome. No need to introduce imbalances. Skill alone decided fights.

In ESO I have the impression that this is not the case, even without CP. In ESO those who exploit poorly designed/animated skills win.
Either by finding combos you can string toghether by animation cancelling so you can execute several abilities in the time it takes a normal player to execute one or by using two mundus stones or using lots of toggles without having them on your bar, etc.

From what I remember WoW did never allow these kind of exploits - also they have global cooldowns and animations that last as long as the cast time actually is.
In ESO you have Crystal fragments and Dark Flare and other skills with an animation twice as long as the cast time, you have instant cast spells that take over a second to complete/takek effect etc.

But I agree with you - a no CP campaign would be an easy solution and I would definitely choose it as it allows a more level playing field.

olsborg

The cp system needs more interresting passives, and the current categories for cp is a bit wonky to say the least, like mighty and thaumaturge being in the same constellation and thaumaturge is the only magicka based star in there.
Also, the biggest unbalance for the cp system is the fact that you can reduce dmg taken from magic and elemental dmg with cp but there is no star to reduce dmg taken from physical dmg.

tengri

No. Absolutely no to any time-based caps whatsoever.

That because of my rl work schedule I cannot play for a longer periods of time at all - but then next month I can play almost 24/7 for two weeks in a row if I so choose.
No one is to restrict me from leveling/grinding as much as I want when I have the free time to do so.

TheShadowScout

olsborg wrote: »

The cp system needs more interresting passives, and the current categories for cp is a bit wonky to say the least, like mighty and thaumaturge being in the same constellation and thaumaturge is the only magicka based star in there.
Also, the biggest unbalance for the cp system is the fact that you can reduce dmg taken from magic and elemental dmg with cp but there is no star to reduce dmg taken from physical dmg.

...you mean, something like, oh, increase your armor rating which works against physical damage?

And yeah, some constellations are more geared towards stamina builds while others are more geared agaist magica builds. You just put your points where your focus is.

Blairy087

danno8 wrote: »

Vanzen wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

"Tyr wrote: »

First of all..If you have over 1000CP and you have a full time job in software development, you botted to get there. Grinding 2 million XP per day for 180 days is impossible unless you're playing at least 10 hours a day on average, so good job on cheating/lying.

And before you try to defend yourself, ZOS has stated that there are less than 35 people with above 650CP as of a couple of weeks ago and the highest CP player had less than 1200 as of a couple of weeks ago, so if you have over 1000CP you are among a handful of people in the whole game who cheated to get there.

Clearly you are wrong when you read the OP's response to your post. You should apologize.

Without even having a good grinding build I can easily get 1 CP every 2 hours of grinding Bankorai zombies, which is less than half the time you state. Mind-numbing sure, but so far from difficult or optimized.

From what I saw the last month from my grinding to v14 with already 250 cp in the Pocket, you get easily 2cp per hour if you have one of the too few good grinding spots for yourself and a partner.

Exactly.

That guy was just so far off with his "10 hours per day average" in order to get 2 CP's per day. And then to call the OP a cheater and liar.

Someone with guts would come on and apologize.

He still has his hand under a running tap applying water to that burn.

RDMyers65b14_ESO

Not every activity in the game earns XP, but takes time. Crafting has a very low xp return compared to the time it takes. Riding from place to place after you have made all the discoveries does not earn XP. It doesn't matter how much enlightenment you might have if the activities you are doing don't earn XP. Case in point, if you are sitting at Chalman watching for siege from an opposing faction, it can take time. It's important to the war effort but there are no XPs to be gained. Yes, you gain AP and XP when the keep is attacked, but ten minutes of battle is not the same as ten minutes of grinding. Grinding is boring and tedious. That sounds like a job. Most people play to have fun. (If you're not having fun, why are you on the game?)

While the OP brought up some great points, I don't think enlightenment is the way to do it. In the end, the devs will find a way to even the playing field and no matter what they decide, it's going to make someone angry. And no, I don't know what the answer is. I trust that those who have the numbers and the skills to develop the game know what they are doing for the overall good of the game.

TequilaFire

Great post OP.

I want to point out for those concerned about PvP CP gain on console, I was able to get 4 CP yesterday
helping in the war effort to flip the map from yellow to red on PS4 Haderus.
While this in no way is on par with grinding it is still not as bad as one would think.
The problem with PvP gain is that is it is situational, if you sit on your buff server all day and don't
get out and capture keeps and skirmish you don't get the xp to earn CP.
I don't PvE much in Cyrodiil but that could only help, and of course there is Cracked Wood which I need to go try.

rfennell_ESO

There are many spots in the game that offer more than a CP per hour if you are built to be able to do them with enough dps and speed to "grind". So the contention that 2 cp =10 hours is wrong, 10 hours you can easily grind out 15-20 if you were so inclined and had the right gear/build and/or are insane.

You can easily do 3-4 a day without having to play very hardcore, you can do it semi casually.

Some people don't like grinding or aren't willing to set up to grind or just don't believe it can be done at a good clip.

Capping CP only helps maintain balance between new players and old players as the more CP you get the less useful it is past a certain point. in 6 months when the average CP is 700ish the advantage of the high CP grinders starts fading, in one year the average (according to ZOS numbers) will be 1000ish and again even versus capped CP the advantage is smaller.

The biggest issue is, like I said, new players coming in with their 90 cp versus 1000's. Facing them would be a really severe uphill grind and that's bad for the future of the game. Capping CP would maybe alleviate that for one dlc phase and then mean s little to nothing.

To be as blunt as possible, the entire CP system was a bad afterthought at some sort of long term fix and it mostly accomplishes nothing except bad things. What really are the positives to the entire CP system as a concept the way it's been implemented? 1,440,000,000 xp worth of time?

Rune_Relic

No thanks.
Prefer Horizontal Progression.

RooBeeO

Nice post OP.

However for those that play on consoles have had even less time to gain CP. So what's the solution here? For they are competing with PC transfers.

One way I see a solution, much to the hate it would get, is every month, console players get a reward of a certain amount of CP for free as a catch up mechanic. As if that would happen.

Another way and far better is, for every 5 quests you do, you are rewarded 1 CP. By the time you hit VR 1 you are half way or more with the average CP player.

In a years time change the CP rate at 1 CP / 2 quests, this would be aimed at new players to the game. People will have a cry about this, however no new players = dead game.

My 2 cents worth.

Also the CP system should of been more like Everquests AA system. Alternate Ability's had a better way on expanding and enhancing the character as far as I can see, plus with a expansion to the game AA's and Level's were also added.

DaveMoeDee

Kaliki wrote: »

Sacadon wrote: »

many times I went to lesser XP areas because Vashna was grinding the preferred area. If anyone saw this it was clearly not botting.

This is one of the problems about grinding in my opinion. @Vashna 's math is right that you can theoretically grind very effectively, but only 2 players per grind spot. This only gives a handful of very efficient players the possibility to grind out CP, while the others get to hear GTFO or worse if they happen to walk through a grind spot.

You have to be extremely creative and look for certain zoned areas or delves with no XP nerf if you want to even be able to grind.

If I am questing in an area and see a lot of melee type mobs, I might grind them for 10 minutes. I don't care if there are other people grinding. There is no reason why I should care about them. This is not a restaurant where people have to make reservations in order to play in a particular area. Likewise, when collecting mats in Craglorn, I do not worry about who else is doing the same. It isn't like I have a set path.

The only time I would ever concern myself with people grinding is if I decided to put a group together to grind (which I have never done). In that case, I would follow first come first serve. Otherwise, I will kill things when I come to them.

Fortunately, I rarely notice when people whisper to me in chat, so they can say what they want.

Kammakazi

FULL SUPPORT

leipatemeibbaa

One of the most constructive OP ever. Thank you for spending time wrote this up. I agree most of the suggestion you posted here.

silky_soft

Thanks to everyone posting about quitting. Please send all you stuff to me.

Now back to talking about CP in pvp, caps/catchup and what then Zeni is going to do about it?

vanzan

bump

mrskinskull

Vashna wrote: »

There's no point in hiding my bias -- I'm one of the players with over 1000 CP. With that out of the way, I do recognize and accept the fact that the Champion System is a rather simplistic, boring, poorly balanced system that should have had limits/caps on day one. However, all indications from ZOS (in recent ESO Live broadcasts as well as the PTS templates) point to an initial seasonal cap of 300 CP. I think this amount is ridiculously low so I would like to suggest a different calculation...

First, some key points:

1. ZOS once stated that they wanted the Champion System to be a long-term solution for the next 10 years. (I'm not sure if this stance still holds, but anyone in software development -- myself being one of them -- knows that you should never design or expect an implementation or solution to last more than 5 years.)
2. ZOS stated that they expected the average player to gain 2 CP per day.

However, consider the fact the CP system was released in Update 6 on 3/3/2015, and Update 7 will be released almost exactly 6 months later on 8/31/2016. That means Update 6 lasted 180 days. At 2 CP per day (plus the additional 70 CP that many players started with on 3/3), the average player should have 420, by ZOS' own estimates. This means the average player is already beyond ZOS' proposed 300 CP cap. Granted, many players don't play the game every single day, but you also have Psijic Ambrosia for significant XP gains, which didn't exist when the CP system first came out.

My suggestion:
A. Assign a cap of 100 CP per month, incremented on the 1st of each month. So, in theory, if the cap is first introduced on 8/31, it would be 600 CP. At this rate, the CP system will last a full 3 years at which point players could attain 3600. That gives ZOS 2.5 years to come up with a better (or at least expanded) system, and if necessary, they can do a CP conversion to a new stat system so people don't lose out on all the XP they acquired.

B. If you stick to ZOS' estimates, the average player would gain 60 CP per month, putting them slightly above the middle for a 100-CP month. This scale is fair because it still provides an opportunity for players to go beyond the average and be rewarded, but not get carried away.

C. Eliminate enlightenment for any player who is currently 2/3 of the CP limit or above. Going back to the 9/1/2015 example of 600 CP, this means anyone that is 400+ CP would no longer get enlightenment, thereby slowing their ascent to the current cap. (This may not seem like much, but if this concept was in place from the beginning, I personally would have 127 CP less than I do now.)

D. Award double enlightenment (2 CP) per day to any player that is between 1/3 and 2/3 of the current cap. In the same 9/1/2015 example, players between 200 and 399 CP would receive 2 enlightenment per day to help them catch up.

E. Award quadruple enlightenment (4 CP) per day to any player less than 1/3 of the current cap. This means any players who rarely play, or more importantly the brand new players starting at 0 CP have a means of catching up by gaining points 4x faster than people at the top. This rate will obviously slow as they eventually climb to the top 1/3.

F. Allow players to bank up to 50 CP worth of enlightenment. This accounts for more than 2 weeks of inactivity for a casual player on the bottom third bracket.

Conclusion:
Starting a seasonal cap at 300 is drastically low for a system that has already been out 6 months. This kind of cap would have made sense back in June/July, but not now. Yes, such a low cap will cripple the top tier with 1k+ CP, so many players won't care about this (or may even rejoice in glee). But there are a large number of players at or above 300 CP also, so you will have many players buying DLCs and not gaining anything. Sticking to 100 per month is reasonable because it gives the CP system a 3-year lifespan, and with DLCs projected to be released by quarter, that's 10-11 DLCs over that timeframe. By then, ZOS should have a better system in place for long-term advancement.

Using an existing mechanic (enlightenment) as a catch-up mechanic should require minimal coding, and it's a mechanic that players are already familiar with. Dividing the player base into thirds (newbies, average, and top tier) keeps things simple while preventing anyone from being the top 1%. (Now they're the top 33%, until the rest catch up.)

Finally, consider that on 10/1, the seasonal cap in my example would increase to 700. This means that players still working toward the 600 CP cap may find themselves dropping from the top 2/3 bracket to the middle third, at which point they start gaining double enlightenment per day to help catch back up. By December this cap would be 900, as the new DLC (Orsinium) rolls out. Players would be able to tap 25% of the 3600 CP system by this point, which is not unreasonable for a system that has been in play for 9 months by then. This also means that players in my situation would remain locked at no CP gain through the rest of 2015, which I think is fair to preserve balance, as long as we can progressively use more and more of the points we already earned while others are given enlightenment bonuses to more easily catch up.

Wow you really got some agrees there.

Have you thought of any addendum to your original suggestion?

I am very curious about this alternative.

Hiero_Glyph

I think most of the feedback in this thread is constructive but lets not neglect the console players and how poorly ZoS handled the PC account copy (not a transfer). I mean all console players have had (comparatively) very little time to get their characters to vr1 and start earning CP while PC players not only inheret all of their CP, but also start earning it as soon as they log in. A vastly lower CP cap is needed on consoles regardless of how this affects the PC account copies.

Vashna

mrskinskull wrote: »

Have you thought of any addendum to your original suggestion?

Actually, yes. There was a lot of good feedback, and points raised by others that I didn't give as much consideration to in my original post, particularly regarding console. I'm working on a secondary update with additional ideas on resolving XP discrepancies in ESO, but at the moment I'm just trying to square away some add-ons affected by Update 7, and trying to survive the endless loading screens.

I definitely welcome the interest, so stay tuned.

Tyr

monkeymystic wrote: »

ZOS has to realise that the players that actually PAY for a subscription are also often the ones who play more then average.

Who wants 10% more exp from subbing if CP cap is set too low? These players will not gain anything from this then, and quit subbing since ZOS will break CP system completely with a cap set at a low number.

And if they all of a sudden makes most subbing players *lose* a lot of their CP with a low cap, then you can bet many will quit because they feel they lost all their playtime, as well as unsub because they don't gain anything from subscription.


I Agree with the original post, and monthly raise in cap is needed, but a cap too low will make the players leave.

Some players will leave because of the cap, while others will play more and subscribe because of the increased rate of enlightened XP. On balance they will gain players.

MissBizz

That means Update 6 lasted 180 days. At 2 CP per day (plus the additional 70 CP that many players started with on 3/3), the average player should have 420, by ZOS' own estimates

...I really need to fish less apparently.