Dru1076 wrote: »

Wow... You have such a low opinion of people.

No, I actually have a very high opinion of people. I have a lot of respect for players like @FENGRUSH . The people who can actually play games professionally? Yeah, that's impressive. You can call it cheap or unfair if you like. But it's someone who's actually taken the time to really hone their ability at the game? Yeah, I respect those guys. Even if I don't like some of them as people, or even agree with some of their opinions.

Someone who wants to be just as good as someone who's invested thousands of hours into the game because they watched a video online? Not so much.

Dru1076 wrote: »

Just what part of "lets agree to disagree" is going over your head? You are wrong...

Yeah, see, that's not "agreeing to disagree." That's "shut up, so I can win this argument by proxy." It's not going over my head. If you honestly backed down any time you said that, and didn't immediately go, "but, really you're wrong," I might accept it.

Dru1076 wrote: »

I just want to be AVERAGE. It isn't about competing for me. It's about fun. Remember when you played games for fun guys?

Yeah. No, then nothing's stopping you. You're already average. Asking to be able to compete with people who play this as a job? I mean, literally, as an average amateur player, you're asking to be as good as professional gamers. You've got to understand, that's just not going to happen. It doesn't matter how well equipped you are, or how many tutorials you've watched on youtube. You'll never be at that level without a lot of work.

Is it worth it? No. I play this game because I enjoy it. Not because I want another job. But, I also don't go into Cyrodiil thinking I can compete for the Emperorship, because I know how good some of these guys are, and I do know how hard they work for it.

Surak73 wrote: »

ObsidianMichi wrote: »

People put a lot of importance on statistics, but skill isn't measured by that. It's measured by time invested and how well you've learned to apply the concepts.

Yes, but I don't see the point. I mean, of course an expert player, who dedicated hours to the game, MUST have some sort of advantages on the newcomings, BUT these advantages should be only those which come from his experience / knowledge of game mechanics itself, NOT from some points/buffes/passive abilities which perhaps he earned grinding casual mobs.

You know, an expert COD player, let's say, can wipe out tons of newbies without having any special point or special gear, but only because of his better knowledge of the game. So, why an expert ESO player should have need of CPs to pump up his stats?

Well it was bound to happen in this thread ESO just got compared to CoD

zornyan wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

The problem is some players have 700+ CP already and that means that say the expert skills in the atronach tree can give a 30% or 40% damage to light and heavy attacks. Now put that in the other skills such as crit, penetration, recovery and so on.

Doesn't work like that, after 300 CP you get tiny returns as you hit the hard cap. Literially your first point gives 1%, 10 points it's about 0.4% at 700? More like. 01 of a percent.

Literially the power level difference of a 300cp vs a 1500 CP player is about 3-4% damage/mitigation.

Hardly game breaking...

- 300cp
-- Warrior: -15% crit/ -15% hardy
-- Thief: +25% stam regen
-- Mage: +15% base/ +15% crit

Vs

- 1500cp
-- Warrior: -25% crit/ -25% hardy/ -15% block cost/ -15% elemental/ -15% dots/ +10% healing/ +15% shields / +15% spell res
-- Thief:+25% stam regen/ +25% mag regen/ -10% stam cost/ -10% mag cost/ -15% sprint cost/ -11% dodgeroll/ -24% time in snare
-- Mage: +25% base/ +25% crit/ +25% heavy attack / +25% armor pen / +15% healing/ +15% crit heals

Literally* 3-4x what you think.

edit: *** the grammar lol

Surak73 wrote: »

ObsidianMichi wrote: »

People put a lot of importance on statistics, but skill isn't measured by that. It's measured by time invested and how well you've learned to apply the concepts.

Yes, but I don't see the point. I mean, of course an expert player, who dedicated hours to the game, MUST have some sort of advantages on the newcomings, BUT these advantages should be only those which come from his experience / knowledge of game mechanics itself, NOT from some points/buffes/passive abilities which perhaps he earned grinding casual mobs.

You know, an expert COD player, let's say, can wipe out tons of newbies without having any special point or special gear, but only because of his better knowledge of the game. So, why an expert ESO player should have need of CPs to pump up his stats?

This isn't CoD and the comparison doesn't serve, because PvP in ESO has always been based on a great deal more than just the advantages gained by the recent addition of CP. A huge portion of ESO's mechanics are based around the gear grind, and in developing timing and counters to player abilities. So, let's extend this out further.

"If PvP players are truly skilled, then what use does a PvP have for wearing any gear at all? Why don't they just go into battle naked using the tier 1 whites they got from Cold Harbor? What use do they have for crafted food? Why should they increase their stats that way? Maybe we should restrict the use of potions as well, so there are no quick ways to heal (even with a substantial cooldowns)? In fact, let's just make it so that players must pick whether or not they want to be shoved into Cyrodil right off the boat from Coldharbor and never let them out again. They can have access to no skyshards except those in Cyrodil, no access to their in game bank, and no access to crafting, and no access to..."

We can go on and on and on here. At the end of it, we'll have a very different game. More than that it's a false equivalence. This is not CoD. Players in CoD don't have CPs. If they did, they'd be using them.

The problem is that for the vast majority of the top tier players, their advantages do actually come from their knowledge of the game mechanics and, more importantly, their knowledge of how to maximize that knowledge in accordance with their gear, buffs gained by food, and specially crafted potions. They've also taken the time to learn how to maximize their damage through weaving and animation cancelling (whether you want to call that an exploit or not is up to you, but you can blame the PvP PC community for the continuation of that), and made the most of their buff stacking. The players who can 1vX, in some cases 1v20 are players who are working towards that. Yes, there are cheaters like the Former Emperor I encountered on the PTS that was making the most of the new Mist Form exploit (that has probably been patched) that allowed him to become invisible. However, there were just as many who could do the 1v20 without cheats before CP hit.

Part of the problem is that people treat one shotting in PvP like it's a new thing and, granted for many console players, it was. CP, however, has become an easy scapegoat. . It doesn't mean there isn't some truth to it, but it's also not the whole story. ZoS has already said they're looking at instituting non-CP campaigns, which is probably one step in the right direction. And even when it is, those same expert players will still be accused of having some other unfair advantage over new players which means the playing field is not completely level.

There are a great many PvP players who are skilled at playing ESO and I won't insult them by saying that the only reason I was defeated was because their stats were better. If I were you, I'd spend more time thinking about them rather than the ones in an entirely different game.

Also don't you get like +10 of whatever stat the CP is in? 4000 extra health/stam/mana is nothing to sneeze at.

@starkerealm

Some time ago as a vr 7 i was so frustrated by my performance in pvp even though i bought the nice purple gear that i stopped logging in since pvp is the only part of the game i enjoy.

After few days i tried a different aproach. Got some xp pots nad grinded till my nose bled. Got myself to vr 12 (couldnt handle grinding anymore) and went to pvp. To my surprise beeing in exactly the same gear (vr6) with esactly the same skill set up i suddenly started doing better. Much better. I didnt die so often i even managed to get some kills in 1v1.

Do you know why? Because this game is pretty simple. Learning the ropes takes an average person few hours and thats it. Then its all about power.

Comparing playing eso to playing instrument you are insulting anyone who ever lernt any instrument.

And yes cp do give advantage.

starkerealm wrote: »

glavius wrote: »

Sorry but your "but it's only a 3-4% damage difference" is just so much *** its unbelievable.... And clearly shows whoever says that has no understanding of even basic maths.

From the build you proposed, I wouldn't be so quick to toss that kind of accusation around. If you're serious about getting the most from the system sticking 100 points in a star is not the way to go about it. It's also why the difference is a lot narrower than most players seem to realize.

So, let's go with a 300 point build for a second. Yes, you could put 100 points in one star, sure let's go with mighty for a second. And you get 25% damage up... or you could got with 10 points in ten different stars, and end up with about +50% split across a variety of stats. So, I know it doesn't sound as awesome as a simple +25%, but you'll get far more value out of spreading them around.

Add another 100 points to the mix and a single star special will get to a total of +50% to two things. But, if you're spreading it around, you'll actually be pushing a +38% effectiveness on those stars beyond the initial 50%.

That's also where the, "there's only 3-4% difference comes in." It's not just damage, it's overall character effectiveness. You can just boost one thing, and you'll actually get (statistically) punished for doing so.

I mean, go ahead, but I wouldn't accuse someone of not understanding basic math when the build you're presenting is sub par.

Yes the build I posted is in no way perfect. But in most cases it's very clear whats the best choise.
And the returns are almost the same going from like 30 points and all the way to 100.
So yes the 300 champ point player can instead of 100 points in mighty spend 34 in might, 33 in precise strikes and 33 in heavy weapon expert.
And instead of +25% dmg from 100 in mighty, (again, assuming 40% crit and 20% of total dmg being light attacks) he will have 1+(1*0.118)+(0.4*0.115)+(0.2*0.25)=+21.4% dmg
Wow good choise.

If there were any real diminishing returns, you would be right. But there really aren't after the first few points spend.

I love that it says lernt* anyone?

starkerealm wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Comparing playing eso to playing instrument you are insulting anyone who ever lernt any instrument.

For that you can blame Dru. He seems to think his background as a musician makes him better at the game... somehow. I'm not even going to try to explain that, you can ask him if you want.

Also, funny thing, leveling up makes you more powerful? Yeah, that's a shocking revelation.

Im sorry then for pinning the instrument issue on you. But nonotherless you seem to dodge the problem. Game itself isnt complicated. Levels and gear matter. But putting on top of that system that beneficial to the characters power and limiting it at 3600 points is utterly failed design. I will manage or not, doesnt matter but if the game has to surivie it needs fresh blood.

Can you imagine the surprise of the new player that will buy the game in febuary, when he got to vr 18 and is told that now he needs 360 more cps to be on average with veterans?

Surak73 wrote: »

ObsidianMichi wrote: »

There are a great many PvP players who are skilled at playing ESO and I won't insult them by saying that the only reason I was defeated was because their stats were better. If I were you, I'd spend more time thinking about them rather than the ones in an entirely different game.

Of course there are expert players who could beat X newbies without any CPs, no one can seriously deny this, but... if CPs are so irrelevant, why so many players are campaigning to defend them? As you said, an expert would have no need of them in order to win: he knows the game, the strongness and weakness of his character, the tactics and so on, so why he need also a 25% bonus in spell penetration, let's say? I don't know you, but usually I don't care so much about something which I don't need...

Actually, I perfectly understand those who have 1200 CPs with relative bonuses and don't want to lose these massive edges. It's quite natural: no one loves to say goodbye to his/her advantages. But I see also that this poses a HUGE problem in terms of fair play, which has nothing to do with the well-deserved advantage that expert players have in terms of a better knowledge of the game. And this problem, IMHO, needs to be addressed.

Oh, you're implications are so sweet. Fortunately, what I do need or don't doesn't concern you.I have said before I have about 68 Champions points and I am for the institution of non-CP campaigns. However, your comparison was erroneous and continues to be. As is the assumption that everyone who argues for the system is one of those making use of it's advantages. This is like saying that if someone wants to keep the system, then they must be a grinder.

This would be like me asking: if PvP is so easy for you and requires little to no skill, then why not go play a game that provides more of a challenge?

It would be pointless though, since you and I both know the answer.

What irks me is the usage of the CP system as a crutch by players and the constant moaning. There are a great many issues with PvP in game and very few of them are in regards to the CP system itself. The continued perpetuation of the system as a scapegoat is an issue, but no more so than the VR ranks or Vampire Dragon Knights or PermaBlockers or whatever will replace CP as the next favorite whine issue of the week. It doesn't mean those issues aren't real but, as others have already said, you get the most from the first 300 CP with diminishing returns.

But for someone who doesn't care what I have to say, you've certainly spent a lot of time picking at my posts. It's no skin off my nose, of course. You're sweet for giving me such attention.

Basically, when you got to the higher levels you found yourself on about the same level as the foes you faced. You would't think it but there is a huge pvp following that only does pvp. Now just having the increased health and such doesn't really effect the skills you have. Only leveling can do that. A level one fireball will do the same low amount of damaged compared to a fully leveled fireball. In fact some low level characters that have, (lets just stick with the fireball) leveled will in theory have the same possible damage, as long as they are wearing clothes that raise their spell damage to that of the v14 they are attacking. Many people get killed by a low level and assume it was one on one where it really was a group effort they just happened to get the last hit in. The whole group thing becomes relied upon in pvp, so when they come to do a trial they are really not putting as much forward as someone from pve. This is not all players mind you. There are pvper's who can take 20 or more by themselves. I highly doubt they would have a problem with a trial or dungeon of four. This brings to mind pvp and pve people who think that they are better than the other. A pvp player really just has to change their clothes and vice versa. We are all playing the same game. I'm rambling because I want to play and the server is down

I needs catch-up system what devs have mentioned they plan to do, but its probably 8+ month away.

On the champion points I just kinda delved into it and made some mistakes. After redoing a handful of times I found some that are good for me even when changing other skills and roles. I mostly went for defenses and after awhile I have seen some real positive effects from them. I'd say just improve upon your characters Pro's and some things you know they have a problem with. If I was a vampire i'd put everything into the elemental defensive pot. I forget what its called or what color it is but I'm not a vampire and I put a good amount into that and I can take fire pretty awesomely. All I can say on CP's is that you shouldn't spread them to thin.