Night Blade Buff Durations Relief Request

GreyRanger · August 2015

The new meta will have night blade tanks and some DPS needing to reapply Shadow Barrier and Siphoning Attacks on a regular basis. With 5 heavy armor pieces this means you need to use a shadow ability every 9s for shadow barrier and Siphoning Attacks every 15s. This is just nuts and dull. Would it be possible to get both of these and perhaps all buffs have a reasonable duration?

Personally I think a short buff should be 20s, an average buff would be 30s, and a long buff 45s.

Buffing and then playing for a bit doing something active is fun, buffing, buffing and buffing gets dull and repetitive.

DDuke · August 2015

In general, I also dislike having to constantly buff my character.

In other MMOs, short term buffs are fun because they have a cooldown & usually tend to have a strong effect on your character. In ESO, the effect usually isn't that "exciting" and since there's no cooldowns you end up pressing these buttons every 10-15 seconds, which isn't that "fun" in my opinion.

One simple way to fix this would be revamping the buffs system and giving them all a much longer duration.

E.g. casting a Mirage as NB would give you a 5 minute long buff, or casting a Thundering Presence as Sorc would last 10 minutes. Volatile Armour could also easily have a longer duration, same as Grim Focus.

Of course you'd want to keep some active effects short duration, such as Scales & Cloak etc and maybe Major Expedition effects as well, but for the "passive buffs" I don't think longer timers would be a bad idea.

All that said, I don't think they should make Shadow Barrier specifically longer duration since it's a (very strong) passive and you don't really have to press an extra button every X seconds to get it, since it comes from cloak, surprise attack/concealed weapon, fear etc

Vatter · August 2015

The last thing NB's need is more buffing.

GreenSoup2HoT · August 2015

A lot of the short duration buff's are to compensate for having extra little duration buff's added in.

-Double Take / 4 Second Speed buff
-Immovable / 5 second CC immunity

I agree though, i would much rather all buff's be at least 30 second's, i wouldn't even care if they increased the cost. It's a pain to have to re-buff every 15 second's.

Draehl · August 2015

Vatter wrote: »

The last thing NB's need is more buffing.

@Vatter You realize he's primarily talking about NB tanks, right?

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

GreyRanger · August 2015

DDuke wrote: »

All that said, I don't think they should make Shadow Barrier specifically longer duration since it's a (very strong) passive and you don't really have to press an extra button every X seconds to get it, since it comes from cloak, surprise attack/concealed weapon, fear etc

It is worth noting that the other classes get major resolve buffs that are twice as long 20s as NBs get under the best of conditions that are realistic (9s with 5 heavy).

Elijah_Crow · August 2015

I agree with this. I don't mind having to reapply buffs but I spend too much times handling this. Elder Rebuffs Online. Not a game I enjoy.

Xeniph · August 2015

I agree, I have never seen a game with so many short duration buffs as ESO. I find it tedious myself.

They could afford to make some of these buffs permanent, or long term (1 hour or so). Then they could add a new ability in the Alliance war line, an offensive Purge.

I am totally amazed that wasn't one of the first abilities in the Pvp lines. Pvp games with debuffs/buffs need Cleanses and Purges, it makes for good strategic gameplay.

Kerioko · August 2015

Magicka NB tank:

- stack magicka, spell damage, and +healing
- cast siphoning strikes every 15 sec
- cast inner rage every 12 sec to maintain taunt
- cast refreshing path for some hots, area aggro, and shadow barrier every 10 sec
- spam sap in aoe/spam funnel in single target

Resulting in:
- perma block casting without resource loss
- respectible single target (4-6K) and aoe (8-15K) dps as a tank
- decent survivability and awesome mobility

I tanked VCoA with my vamp magicka NB with 5 light and 2 heavy using siphoning strikes on live with little problem! On PTS, my light armor tank is even more powerful because I only need siphoning strikes on one bar and my funnel doesn't lose damage (more damage = better heals and more sustain).

I am fine with the 15 sec timer. I do think they need to add the 10% proc chance on all attacks to the leeching Strikes toggle to make it more attractive since it still has the damage loss!

SeptimusDova · August 2015

Khajiit want longer buffs. Buff management is becoming a NB minor Curriculum for a tank major.What harm is there from longer buffs?

AssaultLemming · August 2015

Yep I'm so sick of casting buffs all the time. They already take up a slot on my bar why do I have to push them every 20 seconds? I have 4 buffs up at any one time, it's so tedious.

Wisler89 · August 2015

And that's why I prefer Sorc DPS. 2 Toggles, 1 Buff with 23 secs and the rest is Force Pulse, Crystal Frags and Liquid Lightning. Faaaaar easier than my NB (either dd or tank). NB has so many short buffs, it's not even funny anymore. I'm taking the tank perspective here, because NB tank is way more fun than dd: Shadow barrier (9-10s, I'm using Healing Path for this since the duration is quite close), Siphoning Attacks (15s), Blur (26s), Merciless Resolve (23s, if I want to do damage too, but most of the time I don't use it because I don't have time for it), Taunt (12-14s) and if you really want the full package you can add NB-Shades for 15% damage reduction (26s?). I think after the 3rd buff it stopped being fun and became tedious.

GreyRanger · August 2015

Kerioko, I wasn't saying that on live NB can't be an effective tank unless they set the buff durations at a reasonable duration, I tank as a NB on live and do ok. (Granted the absence of Talons and Chains means DK have some utility I cant bring to the party).

What I was suggesting is that it is often a tedious rebuffing session and that can easily be fixed by reasonable buff durations without unbalancing things. The powers that trigger the buffs will still be taking up bar space. The new siphoning mechanic just seriously adds to the self buff monkey mechanic, which has gotten tedious (as noted above by others).

AhPook_Is_Here · August 2015

GreyRanger wrote: »

The new meta will have night blade tanks and some DPS needing to reapply Shadow Barrier and Siphoning Attacks on a regular basis. With 5 heavy armor pieces this means you need to use a shadow ability every 9s for shadow barrier and Siphoning Attacks every 15s. This is just nuts and dull. Would it be possible to get both of these and perhaps all buffs have a reasonable duration?

Personally I think a short buff should be 20s, an average buff would be 30s, and a long buff 45s.

Buffing and then playing for a bit doing something active is fun, buffing, buffing and buffing gets dull and repetitive.

I agree, babysitting buffs is so boring. they should do this and also make all armor buffs for every class toggles. This is just as boring as keeping GDB and hardened armor up. I get some need to be refreshed like Medium armor dodge buff and absorb magic, but everything needs baby-siting and half of it shouldn't, boring, boring, boring.

olsborg · August 2015

When I started ESO I was shocked at how short the buffs was, like 4-8 seconds on alot of them, and the really, really long ones lasted 15-20 second.

What Im used to and what I feel is the better way to go when talking buff duration, is 20 seconds for short buffs and around 1 minute+ for the long buffs. Rebuffing is just...meh. Feels better to buff, then get comfortable in a fight for atleast 30ish seconds on average before you have to enter buffmode again.

omfgitsbatman · August 2015

I was thinking very close to the same thing on a magicka nb. It's probably one of the toughest rotations to keep track of.
In PVE, you have to keep up Major sorcery either by Entropy or Sap essence, while keeping track of Grim Focus, and keeping your DoT's up. It's a lot to keep track of and it's all different timers, so that doesn't help.
In PVP, I've been trying a build where I use shades, crippling grasp, merciless resolve, and double take all between using the actual damaging skills on my bar and keeping myself healed... It's a crazy amount to keep track of with the disparity in timers. It's really easy to lose your place in a build like that.

This being said, I do support a more uniform buff timer. A lot of skills would have to be reworked if it happened, so I really doubt it ever will. I will be happy if they give us a better way to track buffs and debuffs than keep track in our head or use unreliable addons.

GreyRanger · August 2015

Given the way they standardized buff magnitudes and made it so they no longer stack, I don't think it would be really on that complicated to standardize buff durations: Short 20s, Medium 40s, long 1 minute. Simple enough. I actually think it would be really nice across all classes.

PS There could be a very long duration buff: 5 minutes for pets to make pet sorcerer builds playable rather than the togglemancer, but that is a different thread I guess.

rb2001 · August 2015

I agree with this, and posted a proposal solution. http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/209549/proposal-tactical-long-lasting-buffs-that-dont-take-skill-slots#latest

ThatNeonZebraAgain · August 2015

Totally agree.

OP, don't forget Mirage/Double Take as part of the buff rotation (though at least Caltrops can be replaced since it doesn't proc SA any more)!

DPS aside, here are the buff/debuff timers NB tanks typically have to manage in a given fight:

Shadow Barrier (Refreshing Path): 9s
Heroic Slash: 8s/12s
Siphoning Attacks: 15s
Taunt: 12s/15s
Sap Essence: 20s
Mirage/Double Take: 26s

GreyRanger wrote: »

Given the way they standardized buff magnitudes and made it so they no longer stack, I don't think it would be really on that complicated to standardize buff durations: Short 20s, Medium 40s, long 1 minute. Simple enough. I actually think it would be really nice across all classes.

PS There could be a very long duration buff: 5 minutes for pets to make pet sorcerer builds playable rather than the togglemancer, but that is a different thread I guess.

This is the key I think, as it makes sense from an all around balance perspective. Actually surprised they didn't do this as part of potion effectiveness nerf buff consolidation in 1.6.

GreyRanger · August 2015

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Totally agree.

OP, don't forget Mirage/Double Take as part of the buff rotation (though at least Caltrops can be replaced since it doesn't proc SA any more)!

DPS aside, here are the buff/debuff timers NB tanks typically have to manage in a given fight:
Shadow Barrier (Refreshing Path): 9s

Heroic Slash: 8s/12s

Siphoning Attacks: 15s

Taunt: 12s/15s

Sap Essence: 20s

Mirage/Double Take: 26s

GreyRanger wrote: »

Given the way they standardized buff magnitudes and made it so they no longer stack, I don't think it would be really on that complicated to standardize buff durations: Short 20s, Medium 40s, long 1 minute. Simple enough. I actually think it would be really nice across all classes.

PS There could be a very long duration buff: 5 minutes for pets to make pet sorcerer builds playable rather than the togglemancer, but that is a different thread I guess.

This is the key I think, as it makes sense from an all around balance perspective. Actually surprised they didn't do this as part of potion effectiveness nerf buff consolidation in 1.6.

I agree, but thinking about how tiresome rebuffing has become I would suggest the following durations:

Standard: 30s
Long: 60s
Pets 5 minutes

Give us time to play between buffing.

Rook_Master · August 2015

Having extremely long buffs would just lead to people macroing the hell out of skills and applying every buff in the game to themselves, easily.

kaithuzar · August 2015

IMO templar's or other healers should be the ones casting buffs on players not players casting buffs on themselves.
I've never cared for the idea of "debuffing the boss", but I guess that would be maybe a tank's job or maybe a healer. There should be an entire "other class" specifically designated to "group support" as a role. Such as a player wearing worm cult or the savior to buff magic / stam for the group.
Also they should make many buffs a channel cast where someone has to step outside of the action to cast a buff on another player. That way the duration of the buff could be increased to make it worth stepping outside of the healing springs.

GreyRanger · August 2015

Rook_Master wrote: »

Having extremely long buffs would just lead to people macroing the hell out of skills and applying every buff in the game to themselves, easily.

I would guess that short buffs lead to more macroing since automating the constant refresh is a way of getting some relief.

Here is an idea:
Allow a power setting where it will autofire at a set interval to refresh the buff without the player having to keep up with it. There is precedent for that in an MMO. Essentially creating pseudo toggles which are less annoying than the current timing click fest we have and are heading to.

GreyRanger · August 2015

Well with 2.1.3 out and Shadow Barrier at approximately 9s and Siphoning Attacks at 15s NB tanks remain self-buff monkeys in many situations. Add in heroic slash, mirage, and refreshing the taunt I hope we can find time to do something in addition to refreshing the buffs.

Bummer.