anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

If I want a simple baked potato recipe, I need to visit multiple zones all across Tamriel with most guild stores being pretty much empty.
Handy! The system works!

I found ALL 487 recipes for BOTH my characters in two months. Tool me a bit of gold AND a bit of searching, but I did it.

I guess you haven't searched everywhere, else you would have found it. Or it wasn't for sale anywhere, some items are just very rare.

Even though my comment was related to the fact that bigger sharks cannot eat small fishes.

This was an example. Buying something simple is a chore with the current system.

Outside of motifs, most guild stores are empty.

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Whendim_ESO wrote: »

Once Wal-Mart has decimated the competition, the store prices go up.

Except for the fact that, in ESO, a guild can only bid on ONE trader and thus cannot eliminate smaller guilds.

Some big guilds try to run "several guilds" at once but they usually fail, since it's very hard to coordinate and control.
The system works.

If I want a simple baked potato recipe, I need to visit multiple zones all across Tamriel with most guild stores being pretty much empty.

Handy! The system works!

Do you know how rare a simple Baked Potato recipe actually is? I have 3 Master Provisioners, I check absolutely everything I come across for loot, and do Writs daily. Since launch, I have seen exactly 2 drop, both as Writ rewards. My guildmates have had similar experiences. Don't expect to easily find this, or any hard to get Writ recipe, on a Guild Trader.

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

Saltypretzels wrote: »

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

The idea of needing to be in a guild to sell to other players is, and always will be, completely stupid. Right now, I have an Argonian and Altmer motif sitting in my inventory gathering dust. I would LOVE to sell these, but I'm not joining a guild that I don't even want to be a part of in the first place and is most likely going to charge me for membership, just to sell two items. Instead, my only options are to NPC them and get 10 gold each, or let them sit and take up space. I would need a hundred of them just to make up for the price I COULD be selling them for. And the bank and inventory space are EXTREMELY limited even without dead weight sitting there, which I could expand IF I could make a decent amount of gold in this game. So basically, my only two options are non-options. The most insane thing about this is that people think this is GOOD.

Sounds like you need to try it for a week or two before laying down judgment. I've had nothing but good experiences from these trading guilds. It is very easy to ignore all chat, all raffles, everything, and just use the store.

Never have come across one that has a membership fee. Though I have seen some that request a certain number of sales per week.

I have no desire to join a guild, for any reason. The fact that I HAVE to join one just to sell a couple items should be a HUGE red flag to anyone.

How dare they make me socialize in an MMO! What do they think this is: a multiplayer game?

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

This was an example. Buying something simple is a chore with the current system.

Outside of motifs, most guild stores are empty.

Motifs and crafting materials are bread and butter. But if you're honestly not able to find guilds selling items for research or recipes, you're looking in the wrong place (or you're on a server that's completely trashed, somehow).

I mean, when I was looking for nirnhoned traits last time I had to bounce through three zones, because I couldn't find any at a price I was happy with. But I could find them.

Recipes can be a little trickier, and that one is systemic. Because they chew up one of your thirty slots, you're gambling that someone will need that specific recipe and be happy with the price you're asking. It happens, but I've also had recipes at 50-100 gold timing out. Which puts a disincentive on listing them. I mean, you want them? That's great, buy them. But, if they're not selling, I'm probably not going to list them again.

I do think, with guild stores the 30 item limit should probably be reexamined. There's a lot of stuff I'd put up for sale, but can't, because I run out of slots, or won't because I can list something more valuable in it's place. That said, I don't think that's a system wide failure.

CromulentForumID wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

- Competitive prices => from the buyers' point of view ; not necessarily, since it would make it very easy for someone to corner the market and impose higher prices (buy everything cheap, create artificial scarcity and resell expensive). From the sellers' point of view, if prices are too low they'll stop farming, thus stop selling and said goods will simply disappear from the market. Supply/Demand will work in an AH system just like it works in the current system.

I am not so sure you can state that as a fact. Possible to corner the market? Certainly. Very easy? That I find very doubtful. Even if a couple of items get cornered, compared to all of the items available and that all players want to buy, is it worth the trade-off?

I am also not sure enough players would ever stop farming. It's an MMO. There is always the segment of the population who just want to pick up plants or kill pigs.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

- Wider Range of Items, and Increased Availability => No, why ? AH would have no impact on the quantity of goods available on the market. It's just the ease of access that would change.

Right now the pool of sellers to the general game population is restricted to those who belong to guilds big enough to have a store and with enough money to secure a trader. If any player could sell via a global AH, I don't think it's a very bold statement to say more goods would be available.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

- Trackable Price History => That's already available, manually or via master merchant. It would be more global with an AH but that wouldn't change much. Current figures show that prices are pretty consistent from one guild trader to the next. (Partly due to natural market mechanism, partly due to Master Merchant)

I know you are allowing for more in your statement, I just wanted to point out that console has no add-ons. It is very hard to get that history on console. Even if the market seems to be yielding consistent pricing, it is the lack of information that sucks for buyers. How do you know it is a "good deal" without running around the map?

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

- Faster and more dynamic economy => ??? how ? why ?? people wouldn't buy more nor sell more, they would do it a little bit quicker maybe, but supply/demand would remain the same.

I know I would sell 100% more than I am now - because I am not in a guild with an internal or external store. I know all of my fiends who play would also sell 100% more. They may even buy more. The individuals currently selling in the guild system would not buy or sell more - that is probably true. But all of the other players who are not currently in trading guilds? You would be adding their activity. Good or bad, it would create a more dynamic environment.

In the end you are correct, you do need to weigh the fun of the current market game versus the convenience and accessibility of an Auction House. Or even auction horse :P I personally think the risk of market cornering is pretty small for more than a couple items, but you're still left with the debate about fun versus convenience.

Well said, I agree with all you say. I would, however, qualify your final point - we are left with the debate about fun for the few versus convenience for all.

That's the key point here, the existing system excludes so many players, whether because they are frustrated sellers who don't want to join a guild, let alone 5 guilds, or they are frustrated sellers who do belong to one or more guilds but haven't always got a trader, or frustrated buyers who find the whole travel business with no proper search function too time-consuming to be bothered with, or low level frustrated sellers and buyers who don't have enough stuff to satisfy the listing requirements of most guilds, don't have enough gold to pay the fees some guilds charge, and don't have access to many traders because of level and alliance restrictions.

The trouble is that the low level players in particular get into the habit of deconstructing most things and selling the rest to NPC merchants from the outset. It's not like there's anything in the game to explain the guild trader system to them. Add into the mix the fact that the console players are even more disadvantaged through the lack of addons (which shouldn't be needed anyway for such a core feature as public trading) and you can see why so many players feel excluded from the existing system.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

1/ Which proves that it is working : most people who play "the trading game" enjoy it and benefit from it. The whiners are the ones that don't want to play it, but hey, no play no reward, makes sense. If I don't PvP I don't get AP. If you don't play the trading game you don't sell/buy/make gold. That's it. Even then, that's no hurdle : having no AP doesn't prevent me from playing all the PvE I want, and having no gold doesn't prevent you from farming what you need yourself and craft decent gear.

I think it is more that many players view being able to sell to the whole playerbase is a basic function of the game and not some kind of trading mini-game. I know that is what I expected when I bought ESO. It's great that some people like the bargain shopping and the other market features that result, but in order to get that the game does exclude many players from the process.

Calling people whiners really is unnecessary. I am not sure it is a legitimate criticism for players who based their expectations on a feature that pretty much every other MMO out there that exists now or even ever existed has had in some form.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

2/ All capital cities are major trading hubs with big guilds that sell everything including lower-level stuff, so everything is accessible at all levels.

Really? Everything? Not a single thing is not available? I agree that there is a lot for sale, but absolutes like this are just not true at all. If you really do believe that everything is available I understand a lot more of your defense of the current system.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

3/ Lower levels don't need that much stuff anyway, they loot/farm enough along the quests, or they can have stuff crafted by guildies or themselves. Rarer stuff is required only by min/maxers at endgame.

What if they want to start crafting writes and can't find a stupid Baked Potato recipe? Sometimes the RNG is not very kind. And before you ask, I did myself need one, and went to all of the guild trader kiosks I knew about at the time. I did not see one for sale at any price.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

4/ Everybody can make good, very good money by selling alchemy ingredients at ANY LEVEL, since they're available everywhere.

This seems like kind of a moot point when a main complaint is actually becoming part of the group of people who can even sell to the public to begin with. I don't think anyone doubts they can make money. I think people are wondering why they can't without doing X or Y, since again, they can do it in almost every other online game out there.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

5/ Even if it were less fair, it makes sense to me that players who are not that advanced in the game have access to less things. Effort/Advancement/Reward.

Really? If I play for 10 hours, and you play for 10 hours, and the RNG awarded you better drops, you worked harder? I really dislike how the word "effort" is thrown around. There is too much in the game that depends on random luck to be tossing out things like Effort/Advancement/Reward. Sure, someone who plays only 2 hours should not have as much schwag as someone who played 100 hours. But how about 15 versus 20 hours? If you have more in a video game it does not automatically mean you worked harder or played better. It could mean that, but to take is as some kind of absolute truth to justify any kind of unfairness in the current system.

I actually am not trying to convince you to like a global AH or even convince you the current system is not great. I just don't think your arguments for the current system are all that compelling. If you just wanted to say "I think it is more fun," then I am good with that. People can have a preference, and they should have them. When statements like some of the above are used as proof, though, that is when things start to go off-track.

CromulentForumID wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

CromulentForumID wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

- Competitive prices => from the buyers' point of view ; not necessarily, since it would make it very easy for someone to corner the market and impose higher prices (buy everything cheap, create artificial scarcity and resell expensive). From the sellers' point of view, if prices are too low they'll stop farming, thus stop selling and said goods will simply disappear from the market. Supply/Demand will work in an AH system just like it works in the current system.

I am not so sure you can state that as a fact. Possible to corner the market? Certainly. Very easy? That I find very doubtful. Even if a couple of items get cornered, compared to all of the items available and that all players want to buy, is it worth the trade-off?

I am also not sure enough players would ever stop farming. It's an MMO. There is always the segment of the population who just want to pick up plants or kill pigs.

This does actually happen in some MMOs. You wouldn't see stuff like leather getting flipped like this because, as you pointed out, the supply is high so controlling availability would be impossible.

But, with something like purple and gold motifs? Yes, it would be quite possible for a player or two to artificially inflate the value through buying and flipping.

Would someone do that with flour? Maybe, but it's not likely. Would someone do it with Daedric motifs? Yes, absolutely.

I agree it could happen with some very specific items, and probably those useful to higher levels that would fetch a nice price. I probably stated my point poorly, so I will add this question:

Is eliminating that worth the system we have now? Is the boogeyman of a couple or even several cornered items worth a system that excludes players like the one now?

Actually, yes.

It's not really a boogieman because this does actually happen. Not so much in ESO, but it's not an abstract threat. I mean, I say this having actually made money flipping blue motifs awhile back. And if I saw someone selling a purple for 10k, you better believe I'd pick it up on the spot and list it at somewhere between 15 and 30k (depending on which one.)

The way the system is set up determines who is excluded.

This system excludes some people from selling. A global AH excludes people from buying. I mean, for ZoS, a global AH is a winning situation. It makes stuff like the psijic ambrosia recipes and the rare motifs more expensive, pushing more people towards buying it from the store.

And, before you say, "I wouldn't overcharge anyone for the thing when I found it," remember what I just said about purple motifs three paragraphs ago. And I'm not the kind of person that will go in for heavy flipping.

You make money, I make money for nothing, and the money you make is worth less than it is under this system than the current one.

CromulentForumID wrote: »

To answer probably another follow-up question, maybe not from you, I do feel comfortable using the word "exclude."

No, that's an absolutely fair way of phrasing it. The current system does exclude potential sellers. Which is unfortunate, but it also precludes the kind of manipulation a unified market allows.

At the same time, that exclusion is not as absolute as you may believe.

CromulentForumID wrote: »

We are not able to sell as part of the base game, and their are hurdles to joining a guild. You can argue about how much effort it takes, but then you start getting into the variables of individual people. However, other than getting a blind invite that works out for you, you need to not play the game for a time in order to be able to use a key part of the game.

I'm going to interject, and point out that blind invites are the least likely to be valuable. Usually that's someone trying to pull people into their guild for the purposes of getting a bank or tabard for themselves, and not how serious trade guilds recruit.

CromulentForumID wrote: »

What do I mean? I need to sign up for the forums, read the forums, find the right posts, hope the guild is still adding people, and then hope I can meet the guild's requirements. Or, I can run around the area spamming voice chat for a guild invite (on console).

For PC, you'll see guilds inviting people in zone chat from time to time. Most often these invites will actually be in silver and gold zones, since spamming in crowded leveling zones will usually just pull in people who don't know what they're doing and waste space.

That said, normal Reaper's March, Bangkorai, and The Rift all have a couple guild ads an hour, so it's not impossible that way.

For consoles? I honestly don't know how much worse the chat is there. But, the forums are still a good way to find and join serious trade guilds.

CromulentForumID wrote: »

I personally don't think that is a reasonable hurdle to place on using a basic game mechanic of buying/selling.

A minor nitpick, buying and selling is not gated. Buying and selling to other players is. When I'm just running content, about 85% of my income is from drops, and the remaining 15% will be finding a couple neat things and listing them up.

If you're farming for rare items, then you actually need a guild to offload that without a lot of work. But for normal play, it's much less critical.

CromulentForumID wrote: »

Others can have a different opinion. But please at least acknowledge there is a real barrier and it is not just people being lazy. If I can play 4 to 8 hours a week tops, is this how I want to spend some of that time?

It is a real barrier, but at the same time it's not an insurmountable one. If you want to something beyond running solo content, there's going to be some time investments involved. If that sounds dismissive, I don't mean for it to be.

If you're running dungeons, you're going to need to take the time in to gear up and be prepared. If you're going into Cyrodiil, it's going to take some serious time to learn the systems on your own, or the effort to find others to help you learn the ropes. (Or you could just get smeared by people and then blame their hypothetical CP.) Even if you just want to do all of this on your own, you need to either farm up the drop sets your after, or develop a crafter who can make those things. All of these are non-trivial time sinks.

In that sense a trade guild is actually more valuable for what you don't see, from the outside. The active crafters, the farmers who can help you with information or in trade, the theory crafters. The people in the guild are much more valuable than the 279g I get per blue motif, over the 12 you can vendor yours' for.

starkerealm wrote: »

GuyNamedSean wrote: »

... if you want a fair price you absolutely must go trade in person.

Personal experience has been that zone actually goes more expensive than what you can find in guild stores.

I know, conventional wisdom says it's the other way round, and there's always some idiot listing an Imperial motif for 135k, but in general...

Yup Exactly. And with most people running around with Master Merchant I just don't see the OPs complaint as valid.

To me, what this debate really boils down to is whether you want a buyers market (global AH) or a sellers market (no AH). Both have their pros and cons. I personally prefer a sellers market and think MMO's with a global AH do more harm than good. Since I'm a casual player, I've always had trouble trying to make enough currency in an AH-based economy that I typically have to set aside play time just to farm/craft to bring in extra coin. In ESO, I don't have to do that. I make enough from the items I find while just playing through the game that money is never an issue for me. I'm only in 2 trading guilds, neither charges a fee (they both do raffles/gambling), and I have guild chat turned off. The downside, of course, is it takes longer to find/buy certain items, but that's a miniscule problem compared to having to *work* to make a profit.

@Xendyn Pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Everyone saw this coming a mile away except those in Zos. The problem was, they had already taken the money for the transfers and had agreed the Terms of that transfer. The choices were move forward with what we have, no choice, or 2) create a *** storm from changing the agreed terms after taking the money. And as the main player base is US based, legally, eughhhhhhh

As for the text chat, again, another crazy over sight from a trade perspective.

To sum up almost all the issues/complaints for the present trade system, there are 2 fixes that need to be made and the vast majority of the problem would go away.

1) Allow single players to have the capability to sell SOME number of items without being a member of a guild. The mechanics would only have to check whether you are part of any guild or whether your guild slots are empty. Not an ideal solution, but acceptable under the circumstances and relatively easy to implement.

2) Allow for some kind of global search function, where, it will list the Items and their locations. So you know that it's for sale and where it's for sale. My concern here, would be that if you include prices, you do create the "AH" styled platform, thus, I would tend to remove the prices. Sure, you still have to travel a bit, but hell, going to 5 places you KNOW have the item is better than 20 where you don't know.

Just my logical 2 cents

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

- ESO is ESO, not "every other MMO", it's innovative in many regards, it's unfortunate that people react like "shhh... they don't have this or that like in [whatever other MMO]". Try what's there instead.
- Nobody is "excluded" from the trading system. Just the ones who insist on not joining a guild. They exclude themselves imho.
- You're right that I should have said "complainers" or whatever less negative word instead of "whiners". My bad. English is not my native language.

You just changed words, not sentiment. This isn't really a language issue as much as a perspective issue. My point was that a global AH is a reasonable expectation since it is in pretty much every other MMO. It doesn't matter that it is not. We're talking about expectations. If I buy a new phone, I can reasonably expect it to be able to send text messages. Why? Every other new phone can do it. Am I a whiner if my expectation is not met? I don't think so. Sure, I will have to adapt, or try the phone's alternative way to message. But I am not so sure you can criticize me for my disappointment when I see that feature is missing.

No matter how the exclusion happens, they are still excluded. You were able to find guilds. The guilds work for you. Please understand that, even with effort, that may not happen for others. Please understand that some people don't want to engage in non-game activities in order to participate in facets of the game. "Just get a guild" isn't really a solution. It's not that simple for some people. "Just get a guild" is about a step above L2P in the category of helpfulness. You may as well just say L2G.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

You're quoting out of context. I was answering to someone who pretended that zone/alliance/level was preventing people from accessing items they would need at their own level, which is not true, since the same guild traders are present in every instance of each zone, and big guilds have items of all levels for sale.
Of course you cannot always find any and every single item in the game... some items are rare. That's what rare items are for : to be rare...

I am not sure context is the problem, but I will agree that I didn't get what you were aiming for in that sentence. Sorry.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

As to the Baked potatoe recipe : yes some recipes are very rare and some of them are needed for provisioning writs. But there's a workaround : you can have another player (friend / guildie / supplier) cook it for you and validate your writ !

We were talking about the effectiveness of the trading system. The fact that you can have someone else do it for you is not really relevant. If you follow that line of reasoning, there would never be any problem at all with any kind of trading system, because you could just have someone else get it for you.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

You'll notice that *everything*, absolutely *everything* in this game is pushing you towards grouping / guilds / socializing. While I find it irritating sometimes, I think that ZOS is right to do this, because you buy a game for the content, and once you've played the content, you STAY because of your communities and social contacts. Guilds and groups and people are lively things, they evolve, they have their histories, loves, hates, drama, cool stories and shared experiences. That's "player created content" if I may say so and that keeps people logging in. At least most of them.

You may stay for the social aspect. Others may leave the game early because you ran into some ***. I am glad the game has worked out for you. It does not work out that way for other people. There are important gaming systems locked behind these social aspects. Some people do not play well with others. Some people play games because they are not really looking to play with others. Some people choose not to get on mic to be social because their voice alone invites unwanted attention. I do notice that the game promotes grouping in a lot of ways. I don't like how it pushes it to the point of excluding players from a basic function of online games - selling to other players - without participating in "out of game" activities.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

You're quoting again out of context. See previous point.

I agree that RNG can be frustrating sometimes and the game has a bit too much RNG imho. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the trading system.

How am I taking you out of context? You seem to be equating effort with advancement. Or are you saying that it makes sense that lower-level players shouldn't be able to easily get vet gear? If I am not getting your point, that does not mean I am taking you out of context. But if that was your point, sorry I missed it.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

That said, YES, we agree that the real issue is actually FUN vs. CONVENIENCE. I understand that some (and not few) would prefer convenience, but hey, that's the way the game's designed, and they should state it as a preference too, not writing everywhere that the system is crap and broken, which it isn't. Just look at this thread's title...

I agree with this. Thanks for the reply.

Side note.

I have taken to standing next to guild traders and after searching their overcharge price for my item, I use that to help sell mine.

Hey this store has an imperial motif for 100k. Take mine for 80k!

Lol.

Do you think we should all start undercutting the big guilds juat for the lols?

mrskinskull wrote: »

Side note.

I have taken to standing next to guild traders and after searching their overcharge price for my item, I use that to help sell mine.

Hey this store has an imperial motif for 100k. Take mine for 80k!

Lol.

Do you think we should all start undercutting the big guilds juat for the lols?

Go ahead! Find people that stand there 24/7 and undercut the kiosk members. For better organisation I suggest putting them all in a guild. Oh wait ....

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

mrskinskull wrote: »

Side note.

I have taken to standing next to guild traders and after searching their overcharge price for my item, I use that to help sell mine.

Hey this store has an imperial motif for 100k. Take mine for 80k!

Lol.

Do you think we should all start undercutting the big guilds juat for the lols?

Do it, stand right next to their Guild booth. The same people that love the current system that is superior to everything else will spontaneously combust.

Nah, they'll just buy and flip it.

F7sus4 wrote: »

Xendyn wrote: »

To those bolded parts there, naw man we Saw this coming as soon as they announced how they were doing the transfers. We even had people posting on here how they were going to "borrow" mats and gold in order to go into console release as filthy rich gougers. Seeing some of the prices on here for things like Daedra Hearts and Improvement mats, just has us shaking our heads.

We tried to tell ZOS this wasn't going to be good but they weren't listening.

And what were they supposed to do? Rip PC transfered characters from money or don't transfer PC characters at all? Neither would be fair.

Well that would have been easy. Just don't tell them when exactly the transfers were going to happen. They allowed people to time it and "borrow" gold and mats that they didn't originally even have from friends and guilds. I don't think many would have been willing to contribute their goods to someone for an indefinite period if they hadn't known when the transfers would take place.

Everything will eventually stabilize. PC version had (and still has) the same problem of guilds not being able to run on their own and asking for (voluntary or obligatory) donations so they can maintain the kiosk. The most hardcore ones are being run with private money (which means millions of gold invested per week). This is not the most optimal solution, but mediocre/medium guilds still have a chance for kiosk outside the main trading locations (like Craglorn, Rawl'kha etc.). Anyone expecting to be able to get a kiosk there with newbie guild should simply reconsider (and understand) his own standards and abilities.

I do agree that it will stabilize eventually. But the error in the first place created a lot of unnecessary stress on the economy and the console gamers.