The Horror of Trading Guilds

GuyNamedSean

Anyone else notice that over time a smaller and smaller group of massive trading guilds is taking over the map and keeping prices inflated? Smaller guilds have no chance of holding traders even out in the sticks and if you want a fair price you absolutely must go trade in person. And you can't go to the big cities either, because the guilds have people out trading in person with prices slightly reduced from all the traders so they can fund buying out more and more traders. A good example is Ebonheart Trading Corp on Xbox. According to a contact I have from ETC they have had up to ten different guilds, but recently reduced the number to five because 5000 people were getting a tad too difficult to manage, so they cut the less productive half and kept all their money from those guilds. The last week they owned two different traders in Mournhold alone. This business is unfair and steadily crushing the in-game economy. Can we take some time here to brainstorm possible ways to remedy the growing concentration of wealth in these large trading guilds?

Edit: It appears people are not actually reading the majority of the thread before posting. We've established this is a largely console specific issue and I am not advocating removal of the guild trader system. I am talking about measures to curb the influence of large trading guilds.
Before posting, please take the time to read what has already been stated and provide constructive discussion as opposed to dismissing it as a non-issue because PC doesn't deal with it.

MrGrimey

Why does this game not have an auction house type store again?

starkerealm

GuyNamedSean wrote: »

... if you want a fair price you absolutely must go trade in person.

Personal experience has been that zone actually goes more expensive than what you can find in guild stores.

I know, conventional wisdom says it's the other way round, and there's always some idiot listing an Imperial motif for 135k, but in general...

GuyNamedSean

I'm honestly not entirely sure why we haven't got an auction house, but I'm sure if there are any economists that play they can explain the merits of it.

SteveCampsOut

Blame the sheep who join those types of guilds!

Arkadius

It's not that unusual that some people run multiple trading guilds, even at the same location. Why not? It's the members who make the prices, not the guild masters.

starkerealm

GuyNamedSean wrote: »

I'm honestly not entirely sure why we haven't got an auction house, but I'm sure if there are any economists that play they can explain the merits of it.

Fragmenting the market like this limits the ability of a small cadre of players to game the entire system for their own profit. So, in the short term it keeps items from devaluing too much, but in the long term it helps prevent absurd price creep. It also creates a degree of artificial scarcity for items that are supposed to be rare, but because of players farming, aren't really going to be. Purple motifs come to mind as one example of that.

Originally, the guild stores were all only accessible to members. Technically this is still true, and there are trade guilds without kiosks. You're buying from and selling to one another without an external venue. That said, trade guilds with kiosks do bring in a lot more money, simply because they're accessible to non-guilded players. Under that system it would have been basically impossible for a small cadre to scalp and flip rare items in large enough quantities to disrupt the economy as a whole.

So, while it means purple motifs will cost you 15-30k, it also means that you can't have a guy with 5m gold buying any that list for less than 120k, and relisting them himself. (And, yes, that does happen in some MMOs.)

GuyNamedSean

Do note that this is also tied to membership fees, and there's a thread about fee practices including some guilds that have a habit of ripping off their own members to increase the amount of money they have to spend on guaranteeing traders. I'll agree that in the long run this practice helps keep the economy from deflating too much, but it's also breeding cruel business practices.

KiraTsukasa

The idea of needing to be in a guild to sell to other players is, and always will be, completely stupid. Right now, I have an Argonian and Altmer motif sitting in my inventory gathering dust. I would LOVE to sell these, but I'm not joining a guild that I don't even want to be a part of in the first place and is most likely going to charge me for membership, just to sell two items. Instead, my only options are to NPC them and get 10 gold each, or let them sit and take up space. I would need a hundred of them just to make up for the price I COULD be selling them for. And the bank and inventory space are EXTREMELY limited even without dead weight sitting there, which I could expand IF I could make a decent amount of gold in this game. So basically, my only two options are non-options. The most insane thing about this is that people think this is GOOD.

anitajoneb17_ESO

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

The idea of needing to be in a guild to sell to other players is, and always will be, completely stupid. Right now, I have an Argonian and Altmer motif sitting in my inventory gathering dust. I would LOVE to sell these, but I'm not joining a guild that I don't even want to be a part of in the first place and is most likely going to charge me for membership, just to sell two items. Instead, my only options are to NPC them and get 10 gold each, or let them sit and take up space. I would need a hundred of them just to make up for the price I COULD be selling them for. And the bank and inventory space are EXTREMELY limited even without dead weight sitting there, which I could expand IF I could make a decent amount of gold in this game. So basically, my only two options are non-options. The most insane thing about this is that people think this is GOOD.

It's incredible how people have definite opinions on stuff and systems that they haven't even tried nor experienced !!!

Why are you so stubborn that you don't even want to try and join a trading guild ??? Why don't you join a guild that does not require weekly fees ? (which, by the way, are by no means a "rip-off" of members, but rather a shared investment).

Sounds like a child who decided to not and never ever eat spinach. He does even know the taste of spinach but he definitely wants fries instead.

The trading system is good because it's a game in itself. And creates another types of relationships between players than PvPvE guilds. Social interaction are good for an MMO.

An auction house would be convenient (but bad for correct pricing and easy for malicious people to manipulate), but NO FUN. Guild and kiosk system provides correct pricing and FUN.

anitajoneb17_ESO

GuyNamedSean wrote: »

Can we take some time here to brainstorm possible ways to remedy the growing concentration of wealth in these large trading guilds?

This is supply and demand ruling, and people getting organized or not around it.

As a single player, you have the power of the buyer. If it's too expensive for you, don't buy. Go farm it yourself or do without it.
There is NO SINGLE ITEM AT ALL in the game that you can't farm yourself quite easily or just live without.

If people follow this simple rule, overpriced items will not sell and prices will go down.

You are referring to XBox1 market. I play on PC myself but I'm afraid that markets on console have suffered and still suffer from not all players starting the game at the same stage and a few players arrived there with millions of gold due to duplication from PC, which could cause a monopolistic market distortion from the start, and leading to overpricing / market domination. Still your weapons are the same : don't buy until prices are correct in your opinion.

KiraTsukasa

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

The idea of needing to be in a guild to sell to other players is, and always will be, completely stupid. Right now, I have an Argonian and Altmer motif sitting in my inventory gathering dust. I would LOVE to sell these, but I'm not joining a guild that I don't even want to be a part of in the first place and is most likely going to charge me for membership, just to sell two items. Instead, my only options are to NPC them and get 10 gold each, or let them sit and take up space. I would need a hundred of them just to make up for the price I COULD be selling them for. And the bank and inventory space are EXTREMELY limited even without dead weight sitting there, which I could expand IF I could make a decent amount of gold in this game. So basically, my only two options are non-options. The most insane thing about this is that people think this is GOOD.

It's incredible how people have definite opinions on stuff and systems that they haven't even tried nor experienced !!!

Why are you so stubborn that you don't even want to try and join a trading guild ??? Why don't you join a guild that does not require weekly fees ? (which, by the way, are by no means a "rip-off" of members, but rather a shared investment).

Sounds like a child who decided to not and never ever eat spinach. He does even know the taste of spinach but he definitely wants fries instead.

The trading system is good because it's a game in itself. And creates another types of relationships between players than PvPvE guilds. Social interaction are good for an MMO.

An auction house would be convenient (but bad for correct pricing and easy for malicious people to manipulate), but NO FUN. Guild and kiosk system provides correct pricing and FUN.

So you're saying that an auction house is exploitable but this horrid kiosk system is entirely infallible? What a world of candy and rainbows you must live in.

I've been in these discussions for awhile now, and I've yet to see a sensible argument for this guild trader system that trumps what has been proven to work countless times over.

anitajoneb17_ESO

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

So you're saying that an auction house is exploitable but this horrid kiosk system is entirely infallible? What a world of candy and rainbows you must live in.

I've been in these discussions for awhile now, and I've yet to see a sensible argument for this guild trader system that trumps what has been proven to work countless times over.

What about stating your arguments clearly, rather than simply "I'm right, you're wrong. Definitely."

Saying that my (and others') argument is not sensible is not valid unless you explain why.

And you don't explain either what is so faulty with the current system (except that you don't want to join a trading guild without even expalining why, again).

Tan9oSuccka

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

The idea of needing to be in a guild to sell to other players is, and always will be, completely stupid. Right now, I have an Argonian and Altmer motif sitting in my inventory gathering dust. I would LOVE to sell these, but I'm not joining a guild that I don't even want to be a part of in the first place and is most likely going to charge me for membership, just to sell two items. Instead, my only options are to NPC them and get 10 gold each, or let them sit and take up space. I would need a hundred of them just to make up for the price I COULD be selling them for. And the bank and inventory space are EXTREMELY limited even without dead weight sitting there, which I could expand IF I could make a decent amount of gold in this game. So basically, my only two options are non-options. The most insane thing about this is that people think this is GOOD.

It's incredible how people have definite opinions on stuff and systems that they haven't even tried nor experienced !!!

Why are you so stubborn that you don't even want to try and join a trading guild ??? Why don't you join a guild that does not require weekly fees ? (which, by the way, are by no means a "rip-off" of members, but rather a shared investment).

Sounds like a child who decided to not and never ever eat spinach. He does even know the taste of spinach but he definitely wants fries instead.

The trading system is good because it's a game in itself. And creates another types of relationships between players than PvPvE guilds. Social interaction are good for an MMO.

An auction house would be convenient (but bad for correct pricing and easy for malicious people to manipulate), but NO FUN. Guild and kiosk system provides correct pricing and FUN.

Translation: The system works for ME.

Bigger picture, you cannot convince me the current system benefits the community as a whole. I will continue to not buy things from Yolo Swag 420 Guild stores.

KiraTsukasa

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

So you're saying that an auction house is exploitable but this horrid kiosk system is entirely infallible? What a world of candy and rainbows you must live in.

I've been in these discussions for awhile now, and I've yet to see a sensible argument for this guild trader system that trumps what has been proven to work countless times over.

What about stating your arguments clearly, rather than simply "I'm right, you're wrong. Definitely."

Saying that my (and others') argument is not sensible is not valid unless you explain why.

And you don't explain either what is so faulty with the current system (except that you don't want to join a trading guild without even expalining why, again).

If you really want to get into it, go look up my other posts on this subject. I've torn apart far more detailed posts than yours, you're not worth my time.

anitajoneb17_ESO

If you don't have the time to discuss things, don't even start with it, I'd suggest.

NB : Resorting to rudeness is usually a symptom for those who have no valid argument to use.

Saltypretzels

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

The idea of needing to be in a guild to sell to other players is, and always will be, completely stupid. Right now, I have an Argonian and Altmer motif sitting in my inventory gathering dust. I would LOVE to sell these, but I'm not joining a guild that I don't even want to be a part of in the first place and is most likely going to charge me for membership, just to sell two items. Instead, my only options are to NPC them and get 10 gold each, or let them sit and take up space. I would need a hundred of them just to make up for the price I COULD be selling them for. And the bank and inventory space are EXTREMELY limited even without dead weight sitting there, which I could expand IF I could make a decent amount of gold in this game. So basically, my only two options are non-options. The most insane thing about this is that people think this is GOOD.

Sounds like you need to try it for a week or two before laying down judgment. I've had nothing but good experiences from these trading guilds. It is very easy to ignore all chat, all raffles, everything, and just use the store.

Never have come across one that has a membership fee. Though I have seen some that request a certain number of sales per week.

Arkadius

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

The idea of needing to be in a guild to sell to other players is, and always will be, completely stupid. Right now, I have an Argonian and Altmer motif sitting in my inventory gathering dust. I would LOVE to sell these, but I'm not joining a guild that I don't even want to be a part of in the first place and is most likely going to charge me for membership, just to sell two items. Instead, my only options are to NPC them and get 10 gold each, or let them sit and take up space. I would need a hundred of them just to make up for the price I COULD be selling them for. And the bank and inventory space are EXTREMELY limited even without dead weight sitting there, which I could expand IF I could make a decent amount of gold in this game. So basically, my only two options are non-options. The most insane thing about this is that people think this is GOOD.

It's incredible how people have definite opinions on stuff and systems that they haven't even tried nor experienced !!!

Why are you so stubborn that you don't even want to try and join a trading guild ??? Why don't you join a guild that does not require weekly fees ? (which, by the way, are by no means a "rip-off" of members, but rather a shared investment).

Sounds like a child who decided to not and never ever eat spinach. He does even know the taste of spinach but he definitely wants fries instead.

The trading system is good because it's a game in itself. And creates another types of relationships between players than PvPvE guilds. Social interaction are good for an MMO.

An auction house would be convenient (but bad for correct pricing and easy for malicious people to manipulate), but NO FUN. Guild and kiosk system provides correct pricing and FUN.

Translation: The system works for ME.

Bigger picture, you cannot convince me the current system benefits the community as a whole. I will continue to not buy things from Yolo Swag 420 Guild stores.

It's your free choice. But be aware that ZOS won't replace the trader system in the near future.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Translation: The system works for ME.

More accurately : "The system works for me, I don't see why it wouldn't work for you, you should at least give it a try".

All tastes are in nature and I understand that some people don't like the kiosk system, but they seem to confuse "I don't like it" with "it's bad". Most times without having even tried it.

KiraTsukasa

Saltypretzels wrote: »

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

The idea of needing to be in a guild to sell to other players is, and always will be, completely stupid. Right now, I have an Argonian and Altmer motif sitting in my inventory gathering dust. I would LOVE to sell these, but I'm not joining a guild that I don't even want to be a part of in the first place and is most likely going to charge me for membership, just to sell two items. Instead, my only options are to NPC them and get 10 gold each, or let them sit and take up space. I would need a hundred of them just to make up for the price I COULD be selling them for. And the bank and inventory space are EXTREMELY limited even without dead weight sitting there, which I could expand IF I could make a decent amount of gold in this game. So basically, my only two options are non-options. The most insane thing about this is that people think this is GOOD.

Sounds like you need to try it for a week or two before laying down judgment. I've had nothing but good experiences from these trading guilds. It is very easy to ignore all chat, all raffles, everything, and just use the store.

Never have come across one that has a membership fee. Though I have seen some that request a certain number of sales per week.

I have no desire to join a guild, for any reason. The fact that I HAVE to join one just to sell a couple items should be a HUGE red flag to anyone.

anitajoneb17_ESO

(please delete, wrong maneuver).

anitajoneb17_ESO

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

The fact that I HAVE to join one just to sell a couple items should be a HUGE red flag to anyone.

Why ? (I mean, such emphasis ... "HUGE RED FLAG".... and no argument at all...)

Elsonso

MrGrimey wrote: »

Why does this game not have an auction house type store again?

The real question is why other MMOs are not changing from an auction house to something like this so that players can form trade empires, or try.

Without debating the pro and con of auction house vs guild trader, the intent of this thread now, what I find interesting is that players are creating a meta-guild to run several different guild traders, ultimately competing with other meta-guilds for space. This should not be unexpected and it is actually a rather exciting development, from a player participation perspective. I'd like to see how this progresses and whether they can keep it together. It will be a lot of work to assemble and manage these empires they are trying to build.

eliisra

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

You are referring to XBox1 market. I play on PC myself but I'm afraid that markets on console have suffered and still suffer from not all players starting the game at the same stage and a few players arrived there with millions of gold due to duplication from PC, which could cause a monopolistic market distortion from the start, and leading to overpricing / market domination. Still your weapons are the same : don't buy until prices are correct in your opinion.

Play on PC to. I dont understand what OP is talking about, so this must be a console issue.

Sounds like rich transfers buying out all the guild kiosks and creating a sort of monopoly situation? While that sucks, I never seen any of it on PC. So hopefully trading on other platforms will normalize eventually.

For sure, there's top trading guilds on PC hogging the best spots. There's also drama, sabotage, investment and loads of competition, to stay there. So they deserve it, considering running a top trade guild is a 24/7 job while the spots on average cost 1-2 million each week. It's also a group effort, why many members happily donates towards the bid.

There's still plenty decent spaces to rent for smaller guilds in other cities and towns. It's not like Craglorn or Reaper's March High Street of course, but you still sell your items if the price is right. So I obviously think the guild trading system works pretty well.

KiraTsukasa

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

The fact that I HAVE to join one just to sell a couple items should be a HUGE red flag to anyone.

Why ? (I mean, such emphasis ... "HUGE RED FLAG".... and no argument at all...)

That would be pretty obvious if you got out of your tunnel vision and looked at the bigger picture. I don't want to be in a guild. I don't want people constantly bugging me for stuff, whether it's items or money or my time. I can't sell items to other players, which is a rudimentary part of the game, without having to do things that I don't want to be a part of. If I don't want to do PvP, I don't have to. I can easily avoid PvP without it inhibiting the rest of the game. Why is trading different? It's stupid.

anitajoneb17_ESO

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

The fact that I HAVE to join one just to sell a couple items should be a HUGE red flag to anyone.

Why ? (I mean, such emphasis ... "HUGE RED FLAG".... and no argument at all...)

That would be pretty obvious if you got out of your tunnel vision and looked at the bigger picture. I don't want to be in a guild. I don't want people constantly bugging me for stuff, whether it's items or money or my time. I can't sell items to other players, which is a rudimentary part of the game, without having to do things that I don't want to be a part of. If I don't want to do PvP, I don't have to. I can easily avoid PvP without it inhibiting the rest of the game. Why is trading different? It's stupid.

This proves once more that you haven't even given it a try.
People in a trading guild will never ever ask you for anything personnally nor hold it against you for not being "part of the group" or participating in events, should there be any. That's the definition of a trading as opposed to a social guild. You don't even have to say hello and goodbye in a trading guild.
You join the guild, enjoy your selling slot, turn off guild chat channel, that's all there is to it. No downside whatsoever.

And should you land in a guild that annoys you for whatever reason : leave and get another one. Simple as that.

(But yes I know you want fries, not spinach, and that's it, and all spinach-eaters are stupid).

Slurg

GuyNamedSean wrote: »

Anyone else notice that over time a smaller and smaller group of massive trading guilds is taking over the map and keeping prices inflated? Smaller guilds have no chance of holding traders even out in the sticks and if you want a fair price you absolutely must go trade in person. And you can't go to the big cities either, because the guilds have people out trading in person with prices slightly reduced from all the traders so they can fund buying out more and more traders. A good example is Ebonheart Trading Corp on Xbox. According to a contact I have from ETC they have had up to ten different guilds, but recently reduced the number to five because 5000 people were getting a tad too difficult to manage, so they cut the less productive half and kept all their money from those guilds. The last week they owned two different traders in Mournhold alone. This business is unfair and steadily crushing the in-game economy. Can we take some time here to brainstorm possible ways to remedy the growing concentration of wealth in these large trading guilds?

You just said it yourself- this massive trading conglomerate chose to make itself smaller because it was getting too large to manage. Sounds like they are remedying it themselves. Market domination by one group is not sustainable with the guild system.

It looks like you are on Xbox, where this game is new. I also see a lot of complaints from console players struggling with various issues that come from being in shady guilds. Give it a little time and things will probably sort themselves out. If you're in a trade guild and don't like their practices, leave it and join another. The ones that exploit their members will die off and better ones will take their place if enough people refuse to be exploited. This is how it works on PC, where we've had this system for longer.

As for people who refuse to join trade guilds because they don't want to pay to sell or participate in guild activities, I can tell you my experience on PC has been that the good ones don't require fees and raffles are optional, you can even turn off guild chat if you don't want to be bothered. As long as your items in the store are selling, you are in good standing with the vast majority of them.

GuyNamedSean

It's quite reassuring to hear the PC players talking about this issue being nonexistent. I don't think the system is inherently bad, but it lacks any form of checks and balances to prevent this from occurring. I'll trust you guys that things should normalise. Back at the beginning, the prices were getting hyper-inflated because of the fat cats moving over from PC with a headstart trying to rip newbies off. Now the prices have been falling, but have begun rising again due to the monopolisation.

Ayantir

the problem the op talks about is with a good spot and with a good spam you can be rich very fast. meanwhile, true guils with true officers (spending time to recruit, creating websites, get an active forum, raidlead, strat, theorycraftring, helping newbies) are not rich at all.


on pc some trade guild owners have a private income of hundreds of thousands of gold weekly without about anything to do, because the reach break-even

We imported capitalism into tamriel. The revolution won't be easy to start

anitajoneb17_ESO

Ayantir wrote: »

the problem the op talks about is with a good spot and with a good spam you can be rich very fast. meanwhile, true guils with true officers (spending time to recruit, creating websites, get an active forum, raidlead, strat, theorycraftring, helping newbies) are not rich at all.


on pc some trade guild owners have a private income of hundreds of thousands of gold weekly without about anything to do, because the reach break-even

We imported capitalism into tamriel. The revolution won't be easy to start

I'm afraid I don't understand.
- What you call "true guilds" (helping newbies, leading raids, organizing dungeon runs, etc...) are social or progress guilds, not trading guilds, and they don't NEED any gold because they don't have to hire a trader at all, it's not their purpose.
- Some trade guilds owners make gold doing nothing ? Please explain how, I'd like to know. I'm not aware of this. There is no lending/borrowing money in the game with interest rates, so I don't see how this is possible. The two ways to make gold in ESO are 1. Playing 2. Farming/Buying/Selling. I don't see any other. You don't earn any gold doing nothing (unlike in IRL capitalism).

GuyNamedSean

Ayantir wrote: »

the problem the op talks about is with a good spot and with a good spam you can be rich very fast. meanwhile, true guils with true officers (spending time to recruit, creating websites, get an active forum, raidlead, strat, theorycraftring, helping newbies) are not rich at all.


on pc some trade guild owners have a private income of hundreds of thousands of gold weekly without about anything to do, because the reach break-even

We imported capitalism into tamriel. The revolution won't be easy to start

I'm actually running one of those guilds like you just mentioned. I really haven't got time to devote to another guild and I really haven't got time to go get work crafting for people when I have my whole guild to build up.

And are you suggesting the Red Tide should rise on Elder Scrolls? Lol.