ZOS's Responsibility to the Players

Anazasi · August 2015

I've been playing the game since launch and overall I think ZOS has done a decent job. There is one issue however, that I feel they could improve upon greatly. I believe every MMO player can appreciate this and frankly I think they expect it when paying or just playing a game. We have all seen ZOS deploy hotfixes for things over the past year. However, they are always slow to hotfix known exploits. Yes eventually they do get around to it but for those that remember the caltrops bug and how it destroyed PVP in the beginning can appreciate the fact that when know exploits are discovered and confirmed, ZOS should immediately (48 to 96 hours) hotfix them. They should not be allowed to exists in game. The fact that ZOS has always been slow to respond only leads players to believe, "well we can do it without fear of punishment until it gets fixed 3 months down the road." Yes the sharpened bug is finally getting fixed. Yes the nirn bug is finally getting fixed, yes the twice born bug is finally getting fixed. However, by allowing these bugs to exists for as long as they have (30 days or longer) the impression and perspective for new players and old players is ZOS doesn't care about the here and now; they are only concerned with DLC dollars. This is wrong and ruins the game for players like myself and others who play the game as intended. I have read posts from players that say they have to exploit in pvp to stay competitive. Really? Is that the type of game you wish to manage? Play? Or be part of? Every MMO hotfixes exploits, in fact they rush to do so because they understand cheating is wrong and they ban players for doing so. If ZOS wishes to improve as I am sure they do, they will make efforts to be more responsive to this. Allowing exploits to exist makes the game unbalanced creates an unfair advantage and allows bad players to pretend they are good. It frustrates the honest player and in the end costs ZOS more dollars. I'm just saying step up to the plate and act faster. When a known bug or exploits becomes the new meta to win we all loose.

chromaticwyrm · August 2015

Honestly..I think Zennimax is doing a really good job, having ran a NWN2 server with custom scripts for even world wide happenings. Bug finding and fixing is a massive job, especially as you don't want your fixes to break things even worse. There is a process of finding the code creating the issue, figure out how to fix it, then test to make sure you didn't just break the whole game. Then put it into a hotfix. That was a small sever for 80 players, ESO is a behemoth in comparison with many many hands in the pot. No one has all the coding memorized in this thing finding the script causing the issue may take days to a week by itself.

Zolron · August 2015

I agree. To be honest, i feel it comes down to one of three reasons of which Im unclear as to which one it is.
They are either unable to come up with the fix ( clueless ), dont care, or dont regard the bug/exploit worthy of hotfixing ( maybe same as clueless?

)

willymchilybily · August 2015

chromaticwyrm wrote: »

Honestly..I think Zennimax is doing a really good job, having ran a NWN2 server with custom scripts for even world wide happenings. Bug finding and fixing is a massive job, especially as you don't want your fixes to break things even worse. There is a process of finding the code creating the issue, figure out how to fix it, then test to make sure you didn't just break the whole game. Then put it into a hotfix. That was a small sever for 80 players, ESO is a behemoth in comparison with many many hands in the pot. No one has all the coding memorized in this thing finding the script causing the issue may take days to a week by itself.

agree, cross departmental communication, resource management, general bureaucracy of such a large entity such as ZOS all slow the process down further before the technical aspects come into play. Particularly if anything was outsourced or even if it was internal but in other offices in other time zones. I think it can take a lot more than you realise depending on the problem and where it manifests and originated.

CapnPhoton · August 2015

Are you aware of the process of fixing a player reported bug?

From receiving it, to verification with multiple characters in a test environment, to examining the programming and building a fix, to testing that fix with multiple characters, getting with content team to see if it affects other elements of the game, then releasing it...

There are also multiple teams with specific jobs that are balancing and prioritizing known issues.

You can research these things.

Blade_07 · August 2015

Anazasi wrote: »

I've been playing the game since launch and overall I think ZOS has done a decent job. There is one issue however, that I feel they could improve upon greatly. I believe every MMO player can appreciate this and frankly I think they expect it when paying or just playing a game. We have all seen ZOS deploy hotfixes for things over the past year. However, they are always slow to hotfix known exploits. Yes eventually they do get around to it but for those that remember the caltrops bug and how it destroyed PVP in the beginning can appreciate the fact that when know exploits are discovered and confirmed, ZOS should immediately (48 to 96 hours) hotfix them. They should not be allowed to exists in game. The fact that ZOS has always been slow to respond only leads players to believe, "well we can do it without fear of punishment until it gets fixed 3 months down the road." Yes the sharpened bug is finally getting fixed. Yes the nirn bug is finally getting fixed, yes the twice born bug is finally getting fixed. However, by allowing these bugs to exists for as long as they have (30 days or longer) the impression and perspective for new players and old players is ZOS doesn't care about the here and now; they are only concerned with DLC dollars. This is wrong and ruins the game for players like myself and others who play the game as intended. I have read posts from players that say they have to exploit in pvp to stay competitive. Really? Is that the type of game you wish to manage? Play? Or be part of? Every MMO hotfixes exploits, in fact they rush to do so because they understand cheating is wrong and they ban players for doing so. If ZOS wishes to improve as I am sure they do, they will make efforts to be more responsive to this. Allowing exploits to exist makes the game unbalanced creates an unfair advantage and allows bad players to pretend they are good. It frustrates the honest player and in the end costs ZOS more dollars. I'm just saying step up to the plate and act faster. When a known bug or exploits becomes the new meta to win we all loose.

Sadly this sort of inaction on their part has been this way since the beginning. They are the slowest I have ever seen to fix anything and some small easy to fix bugs have never been fixed at all. BUT, they got the crown store items being pumped out fast enough! I dont know, It seems as if its all about money instead of making things right in this game. Next big update is when they fix things really so until we get a big update we have to suffer on with bugs that could be fixed I believe in a day or even less. And their big updates take months to ever come around. Also they tend to add new bugs which makes things frustrating cuz you know that you gotta wait until the next so called big update which most likely will just add more bugs. >..>
Its this sort of inaction on important things to the players that has made so many others just leave all together and never come back.

Leandor · August 2015

PSA: Paragraphs don't hurt.

Flaminir · August 2015

They explained the answer to this exact question in a recent ESO live.

From memory the answer was basically that Its around the fact that there are SO many interactions between the different systems that if they fix a single bug then they have to do a fresh build with adjustments to all the other systems for that fix which is a huge amount of time & effort. If they were going to hotfix every bug then they would grind to a halt and have no time for proper Dev...

Hence why the do the updates as they do so that they only have to create a fresh build per update.

Also... testing.

Also... Reasons.

Zolron · August 2015

CapnPhoton wrote: »

Are you aware of the process of fixing a player reported bug?

From receiving it, to verification with multiple characters in a test environment, to examining the programming and building a fix, to testing that fix with multiple characters, getting with content team to see if it affects other elements of the game, then releasing it...

There are also multiple teams with specific jobs that are balancing and prioritizing known issues.

You can research these things.

The fanboy force is strong in this one

sorry, couldn't resist.
Seriously...iv been playing MMO‘S since Asherons Call and ZOS has been the SLOWEST to respond and fix bugs ( for the most part...yes there are a few exceptions ) Hell, even some the bugs I encountered on PC are still around 1 year later on PS4 ! Is it game breaking?, no, but any other MMO I've played eventually fixed them....i think ZOS put too much on their plate from the get go and the players overall game experience suffers......
Still, I love tis game !!

Gilvoth · August 2015

oh but they werent slow AT ALL to remove our sneak speeds THAT HURT NO ONE AND NOTHING NOT IN PVE NOR IN PVP YET WERE TOLD IT WAS CHEATING!
GIVE BACK SNEAK SPEED PLEASE!
please just give back my sneak speeds!

Kuroinu · August 2015

I agree that major exploits should take priority over everything else. One thing players can do is to make such exploits more known.

I've seen player communities in past MMOs keep certain exploits very secret(mainly something to do with increasing loot). So secret in fact that only a small part of the community knew about it and how to do it and actually used code names for it, lol. This success in secrecy lead to this exploit not being uncovered until years later, and when it was uncovered a mass banning ensued and many long time Guilds were destroyed due to it. Which of course, had an effect on players that didn't know about the exploit, since they had friends in these Guilds that pretty much dissolved and those friends just decided to quit. It was somewhat of a domino effect in terms of players quitting too, lol.

My point being we can be oblivious to exploits and unsure if something is even an exploit if we find out about it. But you might as well question it and make it known because some things can get out of hand and snowball into bigger problems.

Mighty_oakk · August 2015

Yeah they are pretty terrible compared to most games when it comes to fixes. I can't think of a worse studio atm.

Console release sold over 2million copies @ $70 a pop. They could of hired a few people. But guess what it's b2p and player retention has less value then low operating costs.

Magdalina · August 2015

They don't appear to care. They're sure as heck superfast in fixing grinding spots and stuff like that though. Takes them what, couple of days usually? Now unworking skills and exploitable mechanics...nah, that can stay for a few months, I mean who cares really when we got all those exciting new mounts and stuff.

Xendyn · August 2015

This is something we all think about and notice. Maybe as the folks above say, there is some technical reason it takes so long but I have to wonder if there's some kind of record being set here and not the good kind.

What if they put together some kind of Emergency Team? If there is a major mechanics or gameplay exploit these certain crew members needed to fix it peel off and get together to get it done quickly and then back to business as usual.

I mean there must be some way to speed the process rather than leaving their customer base frustrated and quitting over months-long exploit abuse.

kevlarto_ESO · August 2015

CapnPhoton wrote: »

Are you aware of the process of fixing a player reported bug?

From receiving it, to verification with multiple characters in a test environment, to examining the programming and building a fix, to testing that fix with multiple characters, getting with content team to see if it affects other elements of the game, then releasing it...

There are also multiple teams with specific jobs that are balancing and prioritizing known issues.

You can research these things.

I agree, it can be a huge undertaking to fix the simplest of things, I have played mmo's for many years and in the past other companies have hot fixed issues, in a timely manner and not to the point a known exploit becomes part of regular game or waited until there was huge update to do it all at once, I think ZOS could do a better job, if they have the staff to work with.

SeptimusDova · August 2015

It comes down to the player at the end. Either play clean or play dirty. To be with honor and morals. Or to be honorless and immoral. This I say to the nirn stackers,the sharpened bug stackers,the twice born exploiters the camo exploiters and the might of the guild exploiters. GG cheaters you ran dirty and in order for ZOS to fix it they almost have to Nerf everyone. ZOS if you hold no one accountable for their actions do not expect accountability from your own staff. It shows how little you care for your customers.

It also shows a really insufficient upbringing and some parenting issues that should of been resolved.

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2015

True ZOS has done more than most other MMOs did the first year but fixes for exploits could be faster ..... Like block casting or shield stacking can't believe ZOS kept those bugs/exploits int he game this long,.

Rikal · August 2015

Zolron wrote: »

CapnPhoton wrote: »

Are you aware of the process of fixing a player reported bug?

From receiving it, to verification with multiple characters in a test environment, to examining the programming and building a fix, to testing that fix with multiple characters, getting with content team to see if it affects other elements of the game, then releasing it...

There are also multiple teams with specific jobs that are balancing and prioritizing known issues.

You can research these things.

The fanboy force is strong in this one sorry, couldn't resist.
Seriously...iv been playing MMO‘S since Asherons Call and ZOS has been the SLOWEST to respond and fix bugs ( for the most part...yes there are a few exceptions ) Hell, even some the bugs I encountered on PC are still around 1 year later on PS4 ! Is it game breaking?, no, but any other MMO I've played eventually fixed them....i think ZOS put too much on their plate from the get go and the players overall game experience suffers......
Still, I love tis game !!

Playing a lot of games does not give you any kind of expertise in judging what it takes to make specific changes. Zolron provided some actual relevant context to the situation, and in response you pull out the most tiresome of clichés. Also, for future note, no amount of extraneous punctuation will add credibility to your posts.

AlnilamE · August 2015

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

oh but they werent slow AT ALL to remove our sneak speeds THAT HURT NO ONE AND NOTHING NOT IN PVE NOR IN PVP YET WERE TOLD IT WAS CHEATING!
GIVE BACK SNEAK SPEED PLEASE!
please just give back my sneak speeds!

Oh. 6 months is "not slow at all"? Noted.

sadownik · August 2015

rhaulikkoub17_ESO wrote: »

Zolron wrote: »

CapnPhoton wrote: »

Are you aware of the process of fixing a player reported bug?

From receiving it, to verification with multiple characters in a test environment, to examining the programming and building a fix, to testing that fix with multiple characters, getting with content team to see if it affects other elements of the game, then releasing it...

There are also multiple teams with specific jobs that are balancing and prioritizing known issues.

You can research these things.

The fanboy force is strong in this one sorry, couldn't resist.
Seriously...iv been playing MMO‘S since Asherons Call and ZOS has been the SLOWEST to respond and fix bugs ( for the most part...yes there are a few exceptions ) Hell, even some the bugs I encountered on PC are still around 1 year later on PS4 ! Is it game breaking?, no, but any other MMO I've played eventually fixed them....i think ZOS put too much on their plate from the get go and the players overall game experience suffers......
Still, I love tis game !!

Playing a lot of games does not give you any kind of expertise in judging what it takes to make specific changes. Zolron provided some actual relevant context to the situation, and in response you pull out the most tiresome of clichés. Also, for future note, no amount of extraneous punctuation will add credibility to your posts.

Pardon me but playing a lot of mmorpgs gives me a possibility to compare how bug fixing is handeled. And i must admit tht so far Z. is doing very poorly in that departement.

MornaBaine · August 2015

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

oh but they werent slow AT ALL to remove our sneak speeds THAT HURT NO ONE AND NOTHING NOT IN PVE NOR IN PVP YET WERE TOLD IT WAS CHEATING!
GIVE BACK SNEAK SPEED PLEASE!
please just give back my sneak speeds!

How my vampires miss the Night's Silence set. Yeah, I'm still holding that one against you ZOS and if I do finally get disgusted enough to quit this game, that'll STILL be one of the reasons why.

punja · August 2015

The testing life cycle has already been hammered and done to death in this thread, but there are business considerations as well.

You have to prioritize, calculate however many hours of dev and QA it will take to review and correct an exploit/bug. That time, is hours taken away from another project. Those hours cost companies money, and employee overhead is by far and large the number 1 cost within nearly every software company.

So you have to first get the bug into your tracking system, then moved to superiors for discussion and prioritization, before anyone can work on it. They then have to decide, is this worth putting ahead of feature X,Y,or Z? How does this affect shipping the next product. Shipping the next expansion will generate revenue, how much will leaving this bug in the game a few more months realistically cost us in lost subscribers.

Might sound cold and harsh, but without people making these decisions, companies go under.

And community reps hands are tied until such decisions are made, which is why people make the flagrantly false claim that the people who build this software "don't care."

Callous2208 · August 2015

Mighty_oakk wrote: »

Yeah they are pretty terrible compared to most games when it comes to fixes. I can't think of a worse studio atm.

Console release sold over 2million copies @ $70 a pop. They could of hired a few people. But guess what it's b2p and player retention has less value then low operating costs.

You are either exaggerating to garner a reaction or you haven't played many games. I could fill a page with names but since you said you can't think of a worse studio; Trion-XL Games-Archeage...if I had a mic I would drop it.

CapnPhoton · August 2015

Zolron wrote: »

CapnPhoton wrote: »

Are you aware of the process of fixing a player reported bug?

From receiving it, to verification with multiple characters in a test environment, to examining the programming and building a fix, to testing that fix with multiple characters, getting with content team to see if it affects other elements of the game, then releasing it...

There are also multiple teams with specific jobs that are balancing and prioritizing known issues.

You can research these things.

The fanboy force is strong in this one sorry, couldn't resist.
Seriously...iv been playing MMO‘S since Asherons Call and ZOS has been the SLOWEST to respond and fix bugs ( for the most part...yes there are a few exceptions ) Hell, even some the bugs I encountered on PC are still around 1 year later on PS4 ! Is it game breaking?, no, but any other MMO I've played eventually fixed them....i think ZOS put too much on their plate from the get go and the players overall game experience suffers......
Still, I love tis game !!

Actually it comes from being part of support teams and knowing the bug process...

Thymos · August 2015

Zolron wrote: »

CapnPhoton wrote: »

Are you aware of the process of fixing a player reported bug?

From receiving it, to verification with multiple characters in a test environment, to examining the programming and building a fix, to testing that fix with multiple characters, getting with content team to see if it affects other elements of the game, then releasing it...

There are also multiple teams with specific jobs that are balancing and prioritizing known issues.

You can research these things.

The fanboy force is strong in this one sorry, couldn't resist.
Seriously...iv been playing MMO‘S since Asherons Call and ZOS has been the SLOWEST to respond and fix bugs ( for the most part...yes there are a few exceptions ) Hell, even some the bugs I encountered on PC are still around 1 year later on PS4 ! Is it game breaking?, no, but any other MMO I've played eventually fixed them....i think ZOS put too much on their plate from the get go and the players overall game experience suffers......
Still, I love tis game !!

MMOs of today are quite a bit more complex, though.

firstdecan · August 2015

Anazasi wrote: »

I've been playing the game since launch and overall I think ZOS has done a decent job. There is one issue however, that I feel they could improve upon greatly. I believe every MMO player can appreciate this and frankly I think they expect it when paying or just playing a game. We have all seen ZOS deploy hotfixes for things over the past year. However, they are always slow to hotfix known exploits. Yes eventually they do get around to it but for those that remember the caltrops bug and how it destroyed PVP in the beginning can appreciate the fact that when know exploits are discovered and confirmed, ZOS should immediately (48 to 96 hours) hotfix them. They should not be allowed to exists in game. The fact that ZOS has always been slow to respond only leads players to believe, "well we can do it without fear of punishment until it gets fixed 3 months down the road." Yes the sharpened bug is finally getting fixed. Yes the nirn bug is finally getting fixed, yes the twice born bug is finally getting fixed. However, by allowing these bugs to exists for as long as they have (30 days or longer) the impression and perspective for new players and old players is ZOS doesn't care about the here and now; they are only concerned with DLC dollars. This is wrong and ruins the game for players like myself and others who play the game as intended. I have read posts from players that say they have to exploit in pvp to stay competitive. Really? Is that the type of game you wish to manage? Play? Or be part of? Every MMO hotfixes exploits, in fact they rush to do so because they understand cheating is wrong and they ban players for doing so. If ZOS wishes to improve as I am sure they do, they will make efforts to be more responsive to this. Allowing exploits to exist makes the game unbalanced creates an unfair advantage and allows bad players to pretend they are good. It frustrates the honest player and in the end costs ZOS more dollars. I'm just saying step up to the plate and act faster. When a known bug or exploits becomes the new meta to win we all loose.

Been paying since beta, I remember those early days. Given ZoS' history of introducing new issues when they try to rush fixes, I'm glad they take their time with fixes now. Yes, the current bugs skew game play, but I don't want them fixed if the fix will introduce new issues. I'm tired of tying to keep up with the exploit of the week, the exploit of the month is a little more my speed.

Waffennacht · August 2015

Well its either this or Neverwinter, im kinda dedicated to eso now.

If you're PC well then you literally have Tons of games to pick from...

My point is, if you're console then im guessing you'll stick with ESO, if you are PC why are you playing ESO?

Scyantific · August 2015

JFYI: This is the studio's first MMO/game in general, and on top of that they opted for a custom engine, which means documentation is done on the fly.

I'm not defending them (because yeah, they've made some pretty stupid choices lately), I'm simply stating facts (yes I am aware that the people who make up the team have experience outside ESO).

ahampelb14_ESO · August 2015

Xendyn wrote: »

This is something we all think about and notice. Maybe as the folks above say, there is some technical reason it takes so long but I have to wonder if there's some kind of record being set here and not the good kind.

What if they put together some kind of Emergency Team? If there is a major mechanics or gameplay exploit these certain crew members needed to fix it peel off and get together to get it done quickly and then back to business as usual.

I mean there must be some way to speed the process rather than leaving their customer base frustrated and quitting over months-long exploit abuse.

this is how this is actually read:

This is something we all think about and notice. Maybe as the folks above say, there is some technical reason it takes so long but I have to wonder if there's some kind of record being set here and not the good kind.

What if they $ $ $ $ $ $ $? If there is a $ mechanics or gameplay $ these $ $ $ $ to $ it $ off and get $ to get it done $$$$$$$$ and then back to business as usual -$ .

I mean there must be some way to $$$$$$$ the process rather than (missing part here)

MikeB · August 2015

Its time enough we stop making excuses. It does NOT take that much time to release a hotfix, look at all the hotfixes they have done for grinding spots, those fixes didnt take long at all now did they. Its time to look at the issues with a non-biased opinion instead of fanboy/girling or just hating on the game just for the sake of hating on it. There are a lot of outstanding issues that are still going unfixed when update 1.7 is released, so all we are going to have are issues we cant get fixed and a ton more added on top of those. They really need to buckle down and resolve the issues or we will have another failed MMO we all spent too much money on.