Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

What is ruining PVP is the imbalance issues due to 'nerf this-nerf that'.

i agree, and as far as this vote is concerned i have to say i cant vote because i feel cp's are both good and bad at the same time, im split on the decision and i can see this forum is also, with votes at this moment showing 58 - yes and 58 - no

if one guy enters the ring with 2 fists and a large club then the other guy should also be allowed to enter the ring with 2 fists and one club. i think the classes are imbalanced.
there should never have been classes to begin with. every skill in all the classes should be available to everyone.

starkerealm wrote: »

Dru1076 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Dru1076 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

By themselves CP aren't ruining PVP. Players use CP as a boogeyman catch-all to focus on, but if a player flat out refuses to make an effort to optimize their character, they cannot expect to keep up with players who do. CP needs a seasonal cap, and should most likely not apply in non-vet campaigns. However a non-cp vet campaign is just going to be the hunting grounds of well geared, well organized players.

Thing is, a casual can get the gear, and get organised. What they cant do is keep up with the cp grind.

I don't think cp have ruined pvp for everyone. But it destroyed it for casuals like myself. But its just a cp free campaign or two away from a solution.

That's not going to fix anything for you. Because you'll still be going up against VR16s, in full 16 gear, and getting wrecked. Right now, you can say, "oh, it's the CP!" Which, it's not. But once the IC hits, that VR16 gear will actually give players greater advantage than any hypothetical CP count over your head will.

Um...your wrong. It might take a year for me to get this gear you speak of, but its not behind a time progression wall. The only thing that separates me and other gamers really is time available to grind. And the only reason to grind is cp. I will never understand the emphasis placed upon time progression in these games, at least beyond a certain point. I wish people would stop trying to talk casuals put of playing this game.i am already play in bg a different game, but i would like to see ESO make me feel welcome and wanted again eventually.

Cp free campaigns WOULD fix everything for me.

Okay, explain to me your cunning plan to get enough materials to obtain V16 gear? Or, how you expect to earn between 90k and 110k Tel Var stones? Because that's what the V16 stuff is going to cost.

And before you say, "well, I'll just get it as drops." Do you really think random off traited garbage drops will let you compete with players who are in properly tuned sets?

EDIT: In point of fact, by ZoS's own description, the V16 gear is behind a time gated wall. That is intended behavior.

Um...the population, my clever friend, in IC is based on your campaign pop. So I would go to IC and get them the same as anyone else. The power level of V16 is not a shifting target like the average cp score so I would get there in the end and in a fairly reasonable time. Cp points shift the goals constantly and are IMPOSSIBLE for me to close the gap at a reasonable rate.

Next pointless question? And here's one from me...what exactly are trying to prove here? You are not helping anyone....or is this one of those hilarious troll posts?

You do know that we can farm TV stones in NonVet Non CP if they allowed it right?

ALL PvP will drop it so yes.. YES people can and will farm stones without being forced to get rolled by the CP grinders.

They said in the q and a they might make seasonal caps and perhaps a non champion PvP campaign

Dru1076 wrote: »

Um...the population, my clever friend, in IC is based on your campaign pop. So I would go to IC and get them the same as anyone else. The power level of V16 is not a shifting target like the average cp score so I would get there in the end and in a fairly reasonable time. Cp points shift the goals constantly and are IMPOSSIBLE for me to close the gap at a reasonable rate.

That's actually where you're completely wrong. Ever actually look at the CP systems? I mean, have you unlocked them yet?

If you have, you might have noticed something, but not realized the full implication. When you take your first point in, say, Thaumaturgy, that's +1% damage to all magicka based attacks (basically).

So, each star goes to 100 points, but, Thaumaturgy only increases to +25%.

Now, if you're asking yourself, "how does that work," the answer is fairly simple. Diminishing returns. You first 10 points in a star will give you roughly 20% of it's final value. (This doesn't hold exactly true, the +13% stars will give you 4% at 10 points, but the basic idea is sound.)

So, if you've got 10 points in Thaumaturgy, you're getting +5% to your magicka damage, but what about someone with 20 points? They're only getting about 8.4% up. Twice your rank in that star, but they're nowhere near twice as powerful. At 30 (so, three times your rank) and they've finally doubled your current stat, at around 10.8% (again, if I'm remembering that number right. 30 points might actually be 11.2% on that star.)

There are diminishing returns. They might not be as steep as I'd like. But it does mean, once you've hit around 300cp, you're going to have "most" of what the system has unlocked for you. It's not really a sliding scale beyond that, it's grinding for minute improvements that you couldn't identify without studying your character sheet closely.

Hell, I'm already at the point where I need to type in stat value on my laptop, apply the CP, and then double check to see if the change was even noticeable, and I'm not a CP grinder.

Really at 90 you're well on your way. 300 is if you want to do everything on the list, basically.

Now, it is there to grind out forever, but that's the point. If you're a CR90, you're not dying to a CR200 because their champion points are so much more powerful, that one comes down to the player's skill.

Dru1076 wrote: »

Next pointless question? And here's one from me...what exactly are trying to prove here? You are not helping anyone....or is this one of those hilarious troll posts?

That should be obvious. You're imagining the Champion System is way more awesome than it actually is.

Also, in case you missed it, the V16 gear was actually designed to be a long, arduous grind. As in, that's the intention. You can say, "well, the community is creative," and that's true. But, at the same time, getting V16 gear will be a considerable time investment.

And, here's the kicker. The raw stat advantages from being in V16 gear (gold, in a coherent set) will be greater than the first ~90cp you earn.

Beyond that, as a casual player you will always be at a severe disadvantage to a hardcore players. Even if those players are on an alt account and can't bring their CP and other tangible advantages with them, they still have a better grasp of the game, and more practice.

You can say you'll get organized, and roll together, but you'll still be inexperience as players when dealing with live opponents. And in PvP that (along with a lot of hard core crunching we don't get to see on the forums) is what governs the victors.

And, for what it's worth, normal Tel Var gain rates are tuned to be about 1k per hour. Which makes those PvP sourced V16 sets look like a lot more work. At least to me. So, in saying, "well, I'll just go into the IC and grind for a bit" you're actually talking about grinding times that are roughly equivalent with getting 120 CR. With the added bonus that Tel Var progression can actually be taken from you by an opponent.

Funkopotamus wrote: »

You do know that we can farm TV stones in NonVet Non CP if they allowed it right?

ALL PvP will drop it so yes.. YES people can and will farm stones without being forced to get rolled by the CP grinders.

Stones only drop in the IC proper. That defaults to VR16 (no idea on Blackwater Blade, since that's not available on the PTS). So earning stones that way may not be the solution you were hoping for.

Dru1076 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Dru1076 wrote: »

Um...the population, my clever friend, in IC is based on your campaign pop. So I would go to IC and get them the same as anyone else. The power level of V16 is not a shifting target like the average cp score so I would get there in the end and in a fairly reasonable time. Cp points shift the goals constantly and are IMPOSSIBLE for me to close the gap at a reasonable rate.

That's actually where you're completely wrong. Ever actually look at the CP systems? I mean, have you unlocked them yet?

If you have, you might have noticed something, but not realized the full implication. When you take your first point in, say, Thaumaturgy, that's +1% damage to all magicka based attacks (basically).

So, each star goes to 100 points, but, Thaumaturgy only increases to +25%.

Now, if you're asking yourself, "how does that work," the answer is fairly simple. Diminishing returns. You first 10 points in a star will give you roughly 20% of it's final value. (This doesn't hold exactly true, the +13% stars will give you 4% at 10 points, but the basic idea is sound.)

So, if you've got 10 points in Thaumaturgy, you're getting +5% to your magicka damage, but what about someone with 20 points? They're only getting about 8.4% up. Twice your rank in that star, but they're nowhere near twice as powerful. At 30 (so, three times your rank) and they've finally doubled your current stat, at around 10.8% (again, if I'm remembering that number right. 30 points might actually be 11.2% on that star.)

There are diminishing returns. They might not be as steep as I'd like. But it does mean, once you've hit around 300cp, you're going to have "most" of what the system has unlocked for you. It's not really a sliding scale beyond that, it's grinding for minute improvements that you couldn't identify without studying your character sheet closely.

Hell, I'm already at the point where I need to type in stat value on my laptop, apply the CP, and then double check to see if the change was even noticeable, and I'm not a CP grinder.

Really at 90 you're well on your way. 300 is if you want to do everything on the list, basically.

Now, it is there to grind out forever, but that's the point. If you're a CR90, you're not dying to a CR200 because their champion points are so much more powerful, that one comes down to the player's skill.

Dru1076 wrote: »

Next pointless question? And here's one from me...what exactly are trying to prove here? You are not helping anyone....or is this one of those hilarious troll posts?

That should be obvious. You're imagining the Champion System is way more awesome than it actually is.

Also, in case you missed it, the V16 gear was actually designed to be a long, arduous grind. As in, that's the intention. You can say, "well, the community is creative," and that's true. But, at the same time, getting V16 gear will be a considerable time investment.

And, here's the kicker. The raw stat advantages from being in V16 gear (gold, in a coherent set) will be greater than the first ~90cp you earn.

Beyond that, as a casual player you will always be at a severe disadvantage to a hardcore players. Even if those players are on an alt account and can't bring their CP and other tangible advantages with them, they still have a better grasp of the game, and more practice.

You can say you'll get organized, and roll together, but you'll still be inexperience as players when dealing with live opponents. And in PvP that (along with a lot of hard core crunching we don't get to see on the forums) is what governs the victors.

And, for what it's worth, normal Tel Var gain rates are tuned to be about 1k per hour. Which makes those PvP sourced V16 sets look like a lot more work. At least to me. So, in saying, "well, I'll just go into the IC and grind for a bit" you're actually talking about grinding times that are roughly equivalent with getting 120 CR. With the added bonus that Tel Var progression can actually be taken from you by an opponent.

I have heard all this before. I still don't see any point to what your saying here. The champion point system creates insurmountable gaps for a lot of people. The cp free campaigns are already in the works. This is an entirely pointless conversation. But please...do continue. The insistance of guys like you that cp's don't make any difference amuses me to no end.

They will see how much of a difference when those CP free campaigns go live and all of the CP grinders are left to play eachother..
The numbers will speak for themselves when those do go live..

Like I said give me something to reach for like the gear, but do not tell myself or a newer player that he will never catch up and be competitive unless he spend 66 days of his life grinding.. Yes actual 24 hours a day x 66 to get the cp max.

You're assuming I lack experience and skill, @starkerealm . I lack neither of these things. I lack time, and that it is all.

You know what they say about people who make assumptions, right?

P.S. There are plenty of posts in here exciting the same opinion as mine, so stop stalking me and go flame someone else.

Dru1076 wrote: »

You're assuming I lack experience and skill, @starkerealm . I lack neither of these things. I lack time, and that it is all.

You know what they say about people who make assumptions, right?

No, it's not an assumption. In fact, your own defense is an inherent contradiction.

If you don't have the time, you can't get experience with PvP to really learn your way around. So, you either have time to commit to learning the intricacies of PvP, or you don't.

If you do take that time, then CP doesn't matter.

If you don't take that time, then CP still doesn't matter.

But, if you don't take the time, and don't have the experience, you can still come on here and tell me how you used to be a ranked player in Guild Wars, so you don't need to take the time to learn how Cyrodiil is unlike every other zone in the game, and how you're not really as inexperienced there as you think you are.

starkerealm wrote: »

Dru1076 wrote: »

You're assuming I lack experience and skill, @starkerealm . I lack neither of these things. I lack time, and that it is all.

You know what they say about people who make assumptions, right?

No, it's not an assumption. In fact, your own defense is an inherent contradiction.

If you don't have the time, you can't get experience with PvP to really learn your way around. So, you either have time to commit to learning the intricacies of PvP, or you don't.

If you do take that time, then CP doesn't matter.

If you don't take that time, then CP still doesn't matter.

But, if you don't take the time, and don't have the experience, you can still come on here and tell me how you used to be a ranked player in Guild Wars, so you don't need to take the time to learn how Cyrodiil is unlike every other zone in the game, and how you're not really as inexperienced there as you think you are.

Stark I am sorry, but ESO's PvP leaves very little to "Skill" I have been a huge PvP person from Asherons call through just about every MMO to date worth playing.

ESO's PvP should take a veteran PvP type of player all of 2 weeks MAYBE 4 to master. I am talking ACing,Stat stacking,Buffstacking,Shield stacking ALL OF IT!

90% Of ESO's PvP is just carebear zurging anyways.

You were talking about "Getting the gear" Well in Asherons I spent my 2 months getting my "GSA" then when I met you on the field of battle I would loot your corpse... That my friend was blood flowing real PvP.

IBentley92 wrote: »

Everyone in this forum complains about cp. How about stop your crying and farm some. All you guys do is qq maybe try some pewpew.

Why? Then when they do release non CP campaigns we will have wasted all of the time...............

Good too see forum moderator censoring and deleting posts in this thread to keep things civil...

You guys just wont let up will you?

I have been playing games since childhood. My skill and experience as a player is probably considerably greater than most people because I am also a musician which gives me great timing.

When I say casual gamer, you seem to think lazy and uninterested gamer. I am only refering to the tine I can actually play. Your argument, @starkerealm is so totally flawed it isn't even funny. If hardcores are already so much better than me at playing games, which I assure you mate they are not, then why would they need any added advantage?

And no @TheBull , I don't see myself as ever kicking ass...because I want th other guy to put up a good fight. There is no honour in fighting a weaker opponent. But on the same note, I would like to have an equal footing.

Lets just agree to disagree like adults. You can do that can't you?

Dru1076 wrote: »

You guys just wont let up will you?

I have been playing games since childhood. My skill and experience as a player is probably considerably greater than most people because I am also a musician which gives me great timing.

When I say casual gamer, you seem to think lazy and uninterested gamer. I am only refering to the tine I can actually play. Your argument, @starkerealm is so totally flawed it isn't even funny. If hardcores are already so much better than me at playing games, which I assure you mate they are not, then why would they need any added advantage?

And no @TheBull , I don't see myself as ever kicking ass...because I want th other guy to put up a good fight. There is no honour in fighting a weaker opponent. But on the same note, I would like to have an equal footing.

Lets just agree to disagree like adults. You can do that can't you?

So you are saying since you played Ultima online like me and FPS games such as Wolfenstein 3D, and rolled with the dz clan in Quake 2 online you have set of particular skills than puts you beyond the rest when it comes to gaming experience? So it must be the champion points that gives the distinct disadvantages, not the individual required skillz?

Dru1076 wrote: »

When I say casual gamer, you seem to think lazy and uninterested gamer. I am only refering to the tine I can actually play. Your argument, @starkerealm is so totally flawed it isn't even funny. If hardcores are already so much better than me at playing games, which I assure you mate they are not, then why would they need any added advantage?

I never called you lazy or uninterested.

What I'm trying to point out is that the CP progression is a negligible advantage.

I'll say that again; it's a negligible advantage.

A lot of players look at it, and see the time investment and assume it's value is commensurate with the time required. It's really not. You burn a stupid amount of time for a tiny boost. When someone says their CR is 300, you have to understand, this is a person, who at many points in their life have decided that dealing 0.1% more damage was worth between 30m and an hour of their life.

I like the system for PvE, but in PvP it just isn't enough to swing the balance. I mean, I really like the system at a conceptual level because it means I can actually define who my character is a little bit more in ways the game doesn't normally provide. Like saying they're more focused on physical strength, more proficient with a blade than an axe, better skilled at this kind of armor than that kind. In a way the normal skill progression really doesn't allow.

As flavor, it's fantastic stuff.

As a buff for PvP it's... meh.

I mean, on the whole, the system could be a lot more interesting, and more useful in defining who are characters are beyond, "well, it's an Imperial Nightblade. "

But, crying about how someone lost because of CP really irritates me. Not because I think the CP system is unimpeachable, but because it's someone saying, "I give up, I'm looking for a scapegoat, I can never do this." Which... I don't know, that attitude really irks me.