Imperial City PK Morality

rb2001 · August 2015

Hi,

It doesn't seem like many people care about this (evidenced by the "Justice System" and how players just murder innocents carelessly), but what is the morality / rationale for pking in the Imperial City?

Cyrodil PK at least has a semi-valid reasoning behind it (the way, protect my country).

In IC, do players just rock up and murder others for no reason? Is it just a murder free-for-all? Do players who RP as nice people, heros, etc. Just kill people?

I feel like ESO really missed out on providing a pk state where there are valid reasons and sides (e.g. Players could have been evil necromancers, thus giving valid reason to pk them if you're a good guy).

Thoughts? Does anyone have a problem with just killing other players, and thus being a lowly murderer/psycho?

Robbmrp · August 2015

It's all about the new currency Tel Var Stones. Every PK they make they take stones from the other player.

Akavir_Sentinel · August 2015

Fortunately I won't have to put up with that. I'll just buy the new gear and materials with gold from players who have the patience to put up with the sociopathic gankfest that is Imperial City.

newtinmpls · August 2015

Title reminds me of ...

Jumbo shrimp

Military Intelligence

Zorrashi · August 2015

Presumably you would only be able to attack players from other factions. So in that you have reasoning of fighting for your country/faction.

But if they change that then...well, idk what to tell you.

rb2001 · August 2015

You lost me at Jumbo shrimp.

Xendyn · August 2015

newtinmpls wrote: »

Title reminds me of ...

Jumbo shrimp

Military Intelligence

I think the word you're looking for is Oxymoron

Gilvoth · August 2015

according to what you wrote here in this OP it brings me to the conclusion that you have obviously never played morrowind and learned of the dark elf culture and methods.
even the dark brotherhood, morag tong, and basic kings and queens of morrowind would never be considered as you put it
"being a lowly murderer/psycho"
please do not degrade us Vvardenfell / morrowind loving crowd with your insults.

Acrolas · August 2015

Yes.

There has never been at any time ever, any game with three factions killing each other to control something valuable.

Never, ever.

What a new and dangerous concept.

Athas24 · August 2015

rb2001 wrote: »

You lost me at Jumbo shrimp.

They found me at jumbo shrimp

nom nom nom

TheBull · August 2015

I instinctively slid my mouse where the LOL button used to be.

Rikal · August 2015

"sociopathic gankfest". Ya, pretty much. Depends on the access rules. Based on the time I spent on the PTS (where it was open access), I'd say the best methods and locations for "acquiring" stones from other players will be quite mature by the time it hits live.

IMO the best part of IC's release is that it means they can get to work on the next DLC.

Francis_Toliver · August 2015

rb2001 wrote: »

You lost me at Jumbo shrimp.

Look up oxymoron.

Apply to Imperial City player killing morality.

specifically "Player killing" and "Morality".

newtinmpls · August 2015

Athas24 wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

You lost me at Jumbo shrimp.

They found me at jumbo shrimp nom nom nom

Nummy!!!

Gilvoth · August 2015

Oxymoron, plural oxymora, is a figure of speech in which two opposite ideas are joined to create an effect. The common oxymoron phrase is a combination of an adjective proceeded by a noun with contrasting meanings e.g. “cruel kindness” or “living death”. However, the contrasting words/phrases are not always glued together. The contrasting ideas may be spaced out in a sentence e.g. “In order to lead, you must walk behind.”

rb2001 · August 2015

Francis_Toliver wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

You lost me at Jumbo shrimp.

Look up oxymoron.

Apply to Imperial City player killing morality.

specifically "Player killing" and "Morality".

I'm well aware of what an oxymoron is. "Jumbo shrimp" and "military intelligence" aren't examples of them, regardless of what a comic says. Jumbo shrimp makes perfect sense. As does military as an adjective in that usage.

Fully beside the point, though:

PK and Morality are not mutually exclusive. PK is players killing players. Morality is a concept of right and wrong.

There can be morally right and wrong ways in which players would kill players. ESO is not a special case. A player could be an innocent traveler, and another player could be supposedly a hero and champion, but come kill that traveler callously. Such would be immoral in the view of many players (who have a soul).

I guess ZOS was making an in-joke when they decided all the player-characters should start with their souls removed.

rb2001 · August 2015

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Oxymoron, plural oxymora, is a figure of speech in which two opposite ideas are joined to create an effect. The common oxymoron phrase is a combination of an adjective proceeded by a noun with contrasting meanings e.g. “cruel kindness” or “living death”. However, the contrasting words/phrases are not always glued together. The contrasting ideas may be spaced out in a sentence e.g. “In order to lead, you must walk behind.”

Again, no definitions needed in here.

The oxymoron stuff is sidewinding my actual topic.

rb2001 · August 2015

Francis_Toliver wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

You lost me at Jumbo shrimp.

Look up oxymoron.

Apply to Imperial City player killing morality.

specifically "Player killing" and "Morality".

"You lost me a jumbo shrimp" (i.e. he's not adding anything useful to the discussion by saying that).

newtinmpls · August 2015

rb2001 wrote: »

I guess ZOS was making an in-joke when they decided all the player-characters should start with their souls removed.

Nice tag ... <shout out to MST3K>

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Oxymoron, plural oxymora.”

And cool for this. I never actually heard the plural before.

rb2001 wrote: »

Thoughts? Does anyone have a problem with just killing other players, and thus being a lowly murderer/psycho?

That is definitely one thing I don't like about this game; there are so many quests that are inherently a choice between evil and ... evil. And so many players who seem to revel in slaughtering each other, and then acting unkind - and "defend" their actions with the perennial "well it's just a game".

I don't think so.

I've gamed (RPG) for years, and frankly if you are a jerk in game ... you are probably a jerk outside it. Same with the people who just want to "try out" "being a bad guy"; most of them are only nice when they think someone is watching.

My respect goes to the people who make hard choices (in or out of game) and take the time and energy to be kind. Giving recipes away, sharing tips, answering questions and doing price checks in-game.

So no, my problem isn't so much with the idea of "killing others" (as this is war) but how it is done. How we treat each other.

And I still wish I could have figured out how to contact (and congratulate) that totally awesome NB who killed me ... must have been 5 or 6 times over the course of battling at 3 different keeps the other day. Amazing skills, that one.

rb2001 · August 2015

newtinmpls wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

I guess ZOS was making an in-joke when they decided all the player-characters should start with their souls removed.

Nice tag ... <shout out to MST3K>

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Oxymoron, plural oxymora.”

And cool for this. I never actually heard the plural before.

rb2001 wrote: »

Thoughts? Does anyone have a problem with just killing other players, and thus being a lowly murderer/psycho?

That is definitely one thing I don't like about this game; there are so many quests that are inherently a choice between evil and ... evil. And so many players who seem to revel in slaughtering each other, and then acting unkind - and "defend" their actions with the perennial "well it's just a game".

I don't think so.

I've gamed (RPG) for years, and frankly if you are a jerk in game ... you are probably a jerk outside it. Same with the people who just want to "try out" "being a bad guy"; most of them are only nice when they think someone is watching.

My respect goes to the people who make hard choices (in or out of game) and take the time and energy to be kind. Giving recipes away, sharing tips, answering questions and doing price checks in-game.

So no, my problem isn't so much with the idea of "killing others" (as this is war) but how it is done. How we treat each other.

And I still wish I could have figured out how to contact (and congratulate) that totally awesome NB who killed me ... must have been 5 or 6 times over the course of battling at 3 different keeps the other day. Amazing skills, that one.

Great post. That's what I'm getting at, yes, that ESO is sort of void in terms of offering a playing field where players can take different roles on either side of the curtain. We have every player supposedly the same hero/champion guy, but they are more or less encouraged to kill innocents, take whatever they want, and it doesn't affect anything. It's kind of broken.

For instance, the justice system wasn't presented as "hey now bad things will happen if you murder", it was "hey now you can have fun murdering everyone!".

Maybe it's just a few of us, but I have a real problem with this, and how this doesn't seem to phase most players.

Yes, it is just a game, and it is fiction, but like the above poster says, what you do in the game reflects a thing or two about you, the player.

I have a problem with how ESO isn't set up as a world that really cares about player choices or morality. It seems that Justice System dropped and thus everyone is encouraged to murder. Now IC is going to drop and everyone is encouraged to go kill each other for greed?

Something is up...

Egonieser · August 2015

Morality? There is no morality, only dead players and high egos. Can't say i won't be enjoying it, tired of playig horse simulator in hopes of having a good fight. Will i feel bad for killing pve's? Not really, if you can't take the heat - keep grinding for gold and buy the new stuff.

zornyan · August 2015

You're thinking way too much into this, it's a bloody game, a complete and utter fantasy, it has no bearing on us the players. It's a simple form of entertainment.

My favourite game of all time? Manhunt! A game where your pure focus was slaughtering people, and the only real choices where what weapon (say a broken shard of glass or a plastic bag) and how gruesome (light kill would he instant, or gruesome would be stabbing the eyes out and punching them to death)

My favourite films? Horrors like 'i spit on your grave' a film about a woman getting gang *** repeatedly that then comes back to slowly torture all the men to death in the most vile ways possible.

Now for the fun part? I've got a great wife that shares in this stuff, we have multiple pets we show much love and care to, and I'm a carer that looks after disabled people for a living.

So no, your statement about what we do in games is wrong, that's no different than some scientist saying " a woman that wears red is a whole" or "if your coloured your a criminal"

Septimus_Magna · August 2015

There's no morality, its the jungle, a sneak pit, a wolfs den. You're never safe and you should never let your guard down.

Kill or be killed

Avenias · August 2015

rb2001 wrote: »

Hi,

It doesn't seem like many people care about this (evidenced by the "Justice System" and how players just murder innocents carelessly), but what is the morality / rationale for pking in the Imperial City?

Cyrodil PK at least has a semi-valid reasoning behind it (the way, protect my country).

In IC, do players just rock up and murder others for no reason? Is it just a murder free-for-all? Do players who RP as nice people, heros, etc. Just kill people?

I feel like ESO really missed out on providing a pk state where there are valid reasons and sides (e.g. Players could have been evil necromancers, thus giving valid reason to pk them if you're a good guy).

Thoughts? Does anyone have a problem with just killing other players, and thus being a lowly murderer/psycho?

Morality has nothing to do with it, its all about giving pvp players a tight battle arena to kill each other, instead of a giant map.

twistedmonk · August 2015

TheBull wrote: »

I instinctively slid my mouse where the LOL button used to be.

what happened to the LOL button

Zorrashi · August 2015

zornyan wrote: »

You're thinking way too much into this, it's a bloody game, a complete and utter fantasy, it has no bearing on us the players. It's a simple form of entertainment.

My favourite game of all time? Manhunt! A game where your pure focus was slaughtering people, and the only real choices where what weapon (say a broken shard of glass or a plastic bag) and how gruesome (light kill would he instant, or gruesome would be stabbing the eyes out and punching them to death)

My favourite films? Horrors like 'i spit on your grave' a film about a woman getting gang *** repeatedly that then comes back to slowly torture all the men to death in the most vile ways possible.

Now for the fun part? I've got a great wife that shares in this stuff, we have multiple pets we show much love and care to, and I'm a carer that looks after disabled people for a living.

So no, your statement about what we do in games is wrong, that's no different than some scientist saying " a woman that wears red is a whole" or "if your coloured your a criminal"

Now now don't get so defencive. Getting immersed into a game and having choice mean something (which are prevalent in TES) is part of enjoying the game for many. This fantasy has rules and precedents of its own, and we love the franchise for it. (And I dare say videogames as an art form do in-fact leave a "bearing" on us players in the same way a good novel does but that is another discussion

).

Morality (or lack thereof) is a legitimate topic for any game worth its salt in the any message or environment it tries to convey or express.

Volkodav · August 2015

Yeah,the thing is that I dont care to be unable to go about my questing,but cannot due to being ganked every time I turn around.Which is why I'll be staying out of IC. Though they said it's for both type of players.PvP AND PvE. PvPers seem to think they own the roost in Cyrodiil and now,it seems,in IC. I think people should do it like in WoW. They put up a standard and display that they wish to fight you.This is OUTSIDE an arena or a campaign area,in the main world. At least they dont creep up on you in stealth and stab you to death before you know you're in a fight.That isnt using your skills.It's just ambushing someone because you are too damn cowardly to fight your opponent face to face.

Rydik · August 2015

Same reason as Cyrodil, you fight with people from enemy armies.

Farorin · August 2015

The lore of it is that the fighting in Imperial City is still related towards the alliance war, and that the Tel Var stones need to be gathered as they may hold the key to... Well something, I wasn't really paying attention when i was reading the NPCs stuff, just kind of skimming it as my focus was on trying to find bigger bugs.

So there is reason behind the PK. The other reason, is that... Everyone who is against Queen Ayrenn and the Dominion must be immediately put to death!! FOR THE QUEEN!

Francis_Toliver · August 2015

rb2001 wrote: »

Francis_Toliver wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

You lost me at Jumbo shrimp.

Look up oxymoron.

Apply to Imperial City player killing morality.

specifically "Player killing" and "Morality".

I'm well aware of what an oxymoron is. "Jumbo shrimp" and "military intelligence" aren't examples of them, regardless of what a comic says. Jumbo shrimp makes perfect sense. As does military as an adjective in that usage.

Fully beside the point, though:

PK and Morality are not mutually exclusive. PK is players killing players. Morality is a concept of right and wrong.

There can be morally right and wrong ways in which players would kill players. ESO is not a special case. A player could be an innocent traveler, and another player could be supposedly a hero and champion, but come kill that traveler callously. Such would be immoral in the view of many players (who have a soul).

I guess ZOS was making an in-joke when they decided all the player-characters should start with their souls removed.

When a person says "Military Intelligence" is an oxymoron they are making a political comment about the usual lack of intelligence found in military organizations or in the particular organization being commented on. The usual comment is "Military Intelligence? Isn't that an oxymoron?"

This same idea is being applied (with the assumption that the reader knows the familiar joke above) to the relationship between players that want to kill other players and the concept of morality. I.E. "Player killing morality? Isn't that an oxymoron?"

The joke/comment is so common that most people don't even write out the full comment and simply say something like PK and morality is an oxymoron. All the rest is inferred.

The comment is that most players that want to fight and kill other players don't care about the morality of the action. They are not role playing. They want to kill other players. They don't need a reason other then it feels good to them. Morality doesn't occur to them about this. Players killing other players is about feeling powerful and the rush of pleasure they get when they do it.

But rather then spending a paragraph explaining this, the original poster made a (contracted) witty comment that said the same thing. PK and morality? isn't that an oxymoron?

Dahkoht · August 2015

zornyan wrote: »

You're thinking way too much into this, it's a bloody game, a complete and utter fantasy, it has no bearing on us the players. It's a simple form of entertainment.

My favourite game of all time? Manhunt! A game where your pure focus was slaughtering people, and the only real choices where what weapon (say a broken shard of glass or a plastic bag) and how gruesome (light kill would he instant, or gruesome would be stabbing the eyes out and punching them to death)

My favourite films? Horrors like 'i spit on your grave' a film about a woman getting gang *** repeatedly that then comes back to slowly torture all the men to death in the most vile ways possible.

Now for the fun part? I've got a great wife that shares in this stuff, we have multiple pets we show much love and care to, and I'm a carer that looks after disabled people for a living.

So no, your statement about what we do in games is wrong, that's no different than some scientist saying " a woman that wears red is a whole" or "if your coloured your a criminal"

Very much this.

The people who get angry over being killed in pvp , whine about it being unfair , or go the silly route of saying people who enjoy relentless pvp in a video GAME are sociopaths need to get a grip and realize they might be the one with issues. They are pixels , in a game.

To add to this I enjoy letting my kids use a couple extra accounts to let them hide and use snipe in Cyr and enjoy going " BOOM HEADSHOT". At the ripe ages of 4 and 6.

The family that ganks together stays together.