DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I think threads like these do better without comparing a class to other classes.

Thecapeo wrote: »

It would be nice if DOTs weren't so easily countered in PVP so that almost all our class damage abilities wouldn't be completely ineffectual. That would be a nice start.

Thecapeo wrote: »

Honestly, it's not just how easily they're removed but that they do nothing against shields, are blockable and dodgeable. It's pretty silly. For instance, even if my Unstable Flame stayed so easy to remove at least that would force the opponent to be spending resources and I could keep applying it to keep pressure up until I could take advantage of an opening at least. I would win that resource battle much of the time and not constantly be on my heels with no way to escape combat other than go vamp. ZOS pretty much designed us to stand there an fight but has given us precious few tools to keep pressure on.

Baragorath wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

i have a theorycrafted tank build for pvp for my DK. Its obviously centered about tanking and wont be doing much damage at all but i feel like it could be pretty good. Need to test it once i can actually use the proper armour sets and have my group there for support heals but im looking like at stats like this:

27k Health
20k Stamina
20k Magicka

1.3k Magicka Recovery (unbuffed)
1.3k Stamina Recovery (unbuffed)

32k Spell Resistance (buffed)
27.5k Armour (buffed)

5 heavy
1 light
1 medium

SnB on both bars

Basically i have set up a range bar and a close up bar : http://esohead.com/calculator/skills#1.mzMz9s8uEAZ8dHka8ugIr8GsdT8uENM8GsbX8uvZx8fXiC8jKer8Gsrt8Gsq38jKEG8p7NbkHY8y7rbR3a8l7xbzoC6NzkA6Nzky6bzkg8B7JbzRf6bzsb6Nzsd6bzsw8Y7VbfJu6NfJN8zV7zzeCp48zf7zzNbo8zu7zzHfYE6zHfZd8zG7zzHQ3F8zI7zzJIoX6zJIkL8zN7zzJZcY8zA7zzKpUN8zL7zzK4EX

I really think that tanking will be possible in pvp with a DK more then any other class.

I think with penetrations all being fixed and damage being reduced by 50%, not blocking wont be the complete death of you.

Between having 40-50% standard mitigation from armour/spell res, 20% dodge from shuffle, Reflecting from scale and defensive stance, 4.2k damage shield from igenous, dragon blood heals, elusive mist, magma shell, devouring swarm, my build has lots of safety if you need to drop your block so you can regen stamina.

Couple that with all the ways to regen stamina -> 3 earthern heart abilities for 1k stamina return on cast -> heavy attacks -> 1.3k regen unbuffed -> stamina regain enchant on weapon -> redguard passive (if your redguard) -> ultimates -> potions.

I dont think tanking is dead in pvp. I think tanking is still doable especially with a DK but it requires more thought and management. And DK is the best support class in this game imo so i think that DKs arent dead with this new patch, i just think the ones who really want to play them will continue and find ways to do it. DKs arent going to be able to tank and dps at the same time like before but they can most certainly play the tank/support role the best in this next patch.

And how long you wanna stay with this build alive?

Regen health will make you enemy alive while you gonna drink pots for resources and drop ultimates.

No thank you Zenimax.

and Eric Wrobel - who will be well known as DK Destroyer from incoming week.

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

There are at least 4 main archetypes in an MMORPG PVP oriented game:
- A DPS archetype, dealing damage with physical weapons - often a melee DPS, but can be at range with a bow
- A DPS archetype, dealing damage with magical spells - often a range DPS, but can be a PBAOE nuker
- A healer archetype, providing support to the team
- A tank archetype, holding the line and protecting his allies at the front line

If you want to be a damage dealer and strike your enemies hard with your weapons, then the Night Blade is the right choice. I know people who manage to have some relatively good results with their DK in this role, but to be honest a NB performs much better.

If you want to be a damage dealer and strike your enemies hard with your spells, then the Sorc is the right choice. As for stamina DKs, magicka DKs can somehow succeed in this role, but the sorcerer performs much better.

If you want to be a healer, the Templar is clearly the right choice.

And if you want to be a tank, the Dragon Knight looks as the right class. Being a tank with a magicka build is currently the best choice on the live server. I'm not saying that it's not possible to be a tank with a stamina build, but it's just better with a magicka build. The class skills of the DK are what makes the DK be a strong tank, and if you block wisely and equip the right sets, then you don't have any issue with your stamina bar.

But with the 1.7 changes, tanking is just another story. In PVE, it's OK and even more fun than before. But in PVP, it's no longer possible to play a tank role and hold the line. DKs are quickly out of stamina, and when this happens, it's over.

So, why should we play a DK in PVP?
- To be a melee DPS class? Then play a NB.
- To be a magical DPS class? Then play a Sorc.
- To be a healer class? Then play a Templar.
- To be a tank class, holding the line for your friends? Well, in 1.7 it's quite hard, to say the least.


Dragon Knights need a love in PVP:
- They do not have escape abilities like the NB or the sorc; their only way to survive a fight is to tank until reinforcement arrives. They need a love in their tanking and support abilities (no escape spell, it's not their role).
- They do not have any burst damage capabilities in their class skills but lava whip, and it's only available to magicka DKs. Stamina DKs need more stamina morphs of their class skills, like for example a stamina version of lava whip. The 2 dots in ardent flame are great in PVE, but in PVP they are often purged and therefore quite ineffective. They also lack stamina versions of defensive class skills. For instance, Reflective Scale is great, but it costs too much magicka for a stamina DK. And now that dodge roll and blocking have been nerfed, they lack some alternatives to mitigate damage. It would be sad to see only DKs with a staff in PVP.
- They should be some sort of a hybrid class: not a glass canon melee DPS class like the NB, nor a glass canon magical DPS class like the Sorcs, but instead a support class with better tanking and buff / debuff capabilities, and some decent DPS. Some sort of a support/DPS role we can see in many other MMOs.


IMHO, DK will be a dying class when 1.7 is released. The tests I've performed on the PTS did not manage to convince me that this class is as effective as other classes in the same role. The DK has been nerfed too many times, and now we can feel it hard.

The problem is that we can't expect any change to the DK before at least the next DLC (Orsinium), and this means that DKs will have to wait for a long time before they get more balanced.

MrBeatDown wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

So how come, Dragonknights have the highest DPS out of all classes since the game exists ?
I can't agree with OP on his damage theory.

In PvE they do because they have so many dots and great sustain damage. PvP is not about sustain damage. Its about burst and DKs lack that in large strides compared to all the other classes and not to mention the lack of a execute hurts them tremendously in pvp. They were built for the tank role if you look at it from a archetype perspective hence why they lack burst and execute. Templars only recently got their execute and that made them a really nice class to play all round. NB and sorc have always been about that burst life.

Not true at all if your a magicka tank Dk. My PVP Build is all about sustain and I kick ass with "low" dps. Sustain is what keeps you alive and what allows you to survive and beat shield stackers/ ETC. 1 v1 against anyone, well then you would think I have infinite resources and that im hacking. Its all about dropping that ultimate at the right time to slam someone. If you can out resource them, you win. Period.

MrBeatDown wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

MrBeatDown wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

So how come, Dragonknights have the highest DPS out of all classes since the game exists ?
I can't agree with OP on his damage theory.

In PvE they do because they have so many dots and great sustain damage. PvP is not about sustain damage. Its about burst and DKs lack that in large strides compared to all the other classes and not to mention the lack of a execute hurts them tremendously in pvp. They were built for the tank role if you look at it from a archetype perspective hence why they lack burst and execute. Templars only recently got their execute and that made them a really nice class to play all round. NB and sorc have always been about that burst life.

Not true at all if your a magicka tank Dk. My PVP Build is all about sustain and I kick ass with "low" dps. Sustain is what keeps you alive and what allows you to survive and beat shield stackers/ ETC. 1 v1 against anyone, well then you would think I have infinite resources and that im hacking. Its all about dropping that ultimate at the right time to slam someone. If you can out resource them, you win. Period.

On live maybe. I have fought you in out numbered situations and beaten you all so it's not that great :P

I see your a DC Character, but you don't provide character name. Its a known fact that the only reason why DC wins anything is because they have to bring the Whole realm to take a keep, Use Lag to your advantage, then have your peoples Auto repairing walls while their being sieged so the keeps don't flag. Whats characters name on DC Again?

MrBeatDown wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

MrBeatDown wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

MrBeatDown wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

So how come, Dragonknights have the highest DPS out of all classes since the game exists ?
I can't agree with OP on his damage theory.

In PvE they do because they have so many dots and great sustain damage. PvP is not about sustain damage. Its about burst and DKs lack that in large strides compared to all the other classes and not to mention the lack of a execute hurts them tremendously in pvp. They were built for the tank role if you look at it from a archetype perspective hence why they lack burst and execute. Templars only recently got their execute and that made them a really nice class to play all round. NB and sorc have always been about that burst life.

Not true at all if your a magicka tank Dk. My PVP Build is all about sustain and I kick ass with "low" dps. Sustain is what keeps you alive and what allows you to survive and beat shield stackers/ ETC. 1 v1 against anyone, well then you would think I have infinite resources and that im hacking. Its all about dropping that ultimate at the right time to slam someone. If you can out resource them, you win. Period.

On live maybe. I have fought you in out numbered situations and beaten you all so it's not that great :P

I see your a DC Character, but you don't provide character name. Its a known fact that the only reason why DC wins anything is because they have to bring the Whole realm to take a keep, Use Lag to your advantage, then have your peoples Auto repairing walls while their being sieged so the keeps don't flag. Whats characters name on DC Again?

They should be all in my signature lol

Yeah, Ive never heard of any of those characters in your signature. That's why im asking who you are......

If you have fought me in out numbered situations and beaten me, congratulations. Any one can team up on 1 person and take out the threat. That's how pvp works in cyrodiil. Did you want a cookie?

RinOkumara wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

There are at least 4 main archetypes in an MMORPG PVP oriented game:
- A DPS archetype, dealing damage with physical weapons - often a melee DPS, but can be at range with a bow
- A DPS archetype, dealing damage with magical spells - often a range DPS, but can be a PBAOE nuker
- A healer archetype, providing support to the team
- A tank archetype, holding the line and protecting his allies at the front line

If you want to be a damage dealer and strike your enemies hard with your weapons, then the Night Blade is the right choice. I know people who manage to have some relatively good results with their DK in this role, but to be honest a NB performs much better.

If you want to be a damage dealer and strike your enemies hard with your spells, then the Sorc is the right choice. As for stamina DKs, magicka DKs can somehow succeed in this role, but the sorcerer performs much better.

If you want to be a healer, the Templar is clearly the right choice.

And if you want to be a tank, the Dragon Knight looks as the right class. Being a tank with a magicka build is currently the best choice on the live server. I'm not saying that it's not possible to be a tank with a stamina build, but it's just better with a magicka build. The class skills of the DK are what makes the DK be a strong tank, and if you block wisely and equip the right sets, then you don't have any issue with your stamina bar.

But with the 1.7 changes, tanking is just another story. In PVE, it's OK and even more fun than before. But in PVP, it's no longer possible to play a tank role and hold the line. DKs are quickly out of stamina, and when this happens, it's over.

So, why should we play a DK in PVP?
- To be a melee DPS class? Then play a NB.
- To be a magical DPS class? Then play a Sorc.
- To be a healer class? Then play a Templar.
- To be a tank class, holding the line for your friends? Well, in 1.7 it's quite hard, to say the least.


Dragon Knights need a love in PVP:
- They do not have escape abilities like the NB or the sorc; their only way to survive a fight is to tank until reinforcement arrives. They need a love in their tanking and support abilities (no escape spell, it's not their role).
- They do not have any burst damage capabilities in their class skills but lava whip, and it's only available to magicka DKs. Stamina DKs need more stamina morphs of their class skills, like for example a stamina version of lava whip. The 2 dots in ardent flame are great in PVE, but in PVP they are often purged and therefore quite ineffective. They also lack stamina versions of defensive class skills. For instance, Reflective Scale is great, but it costs too much magicka for a stamina DK. And now that dodge roll and blocking have been nerfed, they lack some alternatives to mitigate damage. It would be sad to see only DKs with a staff in PVP.
- They should be some sort of a hybrid class: not a glass canon melee DPS class like the NB, nor a glass canon magical DPS class like the Sorcs, but instead a support class with better tanking and buff / debuff capabilities, and some decent DPS. Some sort of a support/DPS role we can see in many other MMOs.


IMHO, DK will be a dying class when 1.7 is released. The tests I've performed on the PTS did not manage to convince me that this class is as effective as other classes in the same role. The DK has been nerfed too many times, and now we can feel it hard.

The problem is that we can't expect any change to the DK before at least the next DLC (Orsinium), and this means that DKs will have to wait for a long time before they get more balanced.

Ever heard of Vortexman?