When IC is here, what's the point of running Trials that won't scale to V16?????

Robbmrp · August 2015

So from reading the patch notes and @ZOS's reply on them, Trials WILL NOT SCALE TO V16. So I ask all of you that run these Trials, where's your incentive to continue to do so? Since these do not scale, there won't be any V15 or V16 loot to get or deconstruct. @ZOS changed the previous end game gear so the bonuses aren't as good as they were. So what do you all think about this? Personally, I can't see a reason to bother with these at all once IC comes out.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_RichLambert what was the decision based on to not include Trials in the V16 scaling? You may have made these obsolete by doing so. Since these WON'T Scale, are there any plans in the future to turn these into 4 or 8 man dungeons? I doubt people will be able to run these with 12 people as anyone V14 and higher won't be doing them. Instead of them not being used at all, change them to 4 or 8 man runs with achievements based off those. It's a lot easier to get 4-8 than 12 for a run. Then you can scale them to V16 just like the other dungeons. By doing this, you've now added 3 more dungeons for people to do undaunted quests in.

It's better than letting them sit with no one ever running them.....

Marrtha · October 2015

I do trials for fun nowadays.

EDIT: typo

Faulgor · August 2015

None. Craglorn's dead until they remove Veteran Ranks.

AhPook_Is_Here · August 2015

Robbmrp wrote: »

So from reading the patch notes and @ZOS's reply on them, Trials WILL NOT SCALE TO V16. So I ask all of you that run these Trials, where's your incentive to continue to do so? Since these do not scale, there won't be any V15 or V16 loot to get or deconstruct. @ZOS changed the previous end game gear so the bonuses aren't as good as they were. So what do you all think about this? Personally, I can't see a reason to bother with these at all once IC comes out.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_RichLambert what was the decision based on to not include Trials in the V16 scaling? You may have made these obsolete by doing so. Since these WON'T Scale, are there any plans in the future to turn these into 4 or 8 man dungeons? I doubt people will be able to run these with 12 people as anyone V14 and higher won't be doing them. Instead of them not being used at all, change them to 4 or 8 man runs with achievements based off those. It's a lot easier to get 4-8 than 12 for a run. Then you can scale them to V16 just like the other dungeons. By doing this, you've now added 3 more dungeons for people to do undaunted quests in.

It's better than letting them sit with no one ever running them.....

The first 2 didn't scale to 14 either. The reward bags did and I think they will scale to 16, but their loot is narrower than the drop range from the dungeon. Isn't orsimer coming out in a few months? They will prob raise the level cap again by 2 then and make the trials there vr18, which will make a lot of this crafted gear that requires hundreds of drops obsolete before it is broadly used.

Robbmrp · August 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

So from reading the patch notes and @ZOS's reply on them, Trials WILL NOT SCALE TO V16. So I ask all of you that run these Trials, where's your incentive to continue to do so? Since these do not scale, there won't be any V15 or V16 loot to get or deconstruct. @ZOS changed the previous end game gear so the bonuses aren't as good as they were. So what do you all think about this? Personally, I can't see a reason to bother with these at all once IC comes out.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_RichLambert what was the decision based on to not include Trials in the V16 scaling? You may have made these obsolete by doing so. Since these WON'T Scale, are there any plans in the future to turn these into 4 or 8 man dungeons? I doubt people will be able to run these with 12 people as anyone V14 and higher won't be doing them. Instead of them not being used at all, change them to 4 or 8 man runs with achievements based off those. It's a lot easier to get 4-8 than 12 for a run. Then you can scale them to V16 just like the other dungeons. By doing this, you've now added 3 more dungeons for people to do undaunted quests in.

It's better than letting them sit with no one ever running them.....

The first 2 didn't scale to 14 either. The reward bags did and I think they will scale to 16, but their loot is narrower than the drop range from the dungeon. Isn't orsimer coming out in a few months? They will prob raise the level cap again by 2 then and make the trials there vr18, which will make a lot of this crafted gear that requires hundreds of drops obsolete before it is broadly used.

Hopefully that's the case with them. Or better yet, as new content comes out, make new trials in the new zones and move all of the lower ones to 4 man dungeons. This is a plus for everyone as those who didn't do trials before can experience them as 4 man dungeons. Those that are bored with the existing trials get new ones to run through.

AlnilamE · August 2015

Will the weekly reward bags scale to V16?

If so, there's your reason.

Though I agree upping them would be a good idea (maybe not to V16, though)

Rioht · August 2015

AlnilamE wrote: »

Will the weekly reward bags scale to V16?

If so, there's your reason.

Though I agree upping them would be a good idea (maybe not to V16, though)

Yes, but how many players will actually be able to get those?

They will be limited to a very few individuals who use multiple toons to conquer the boards.

AhPook_Is_Here · August 2015

Rioht wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Will the weekly reward bags scale to V16?

If so, there's your reason.

Though I agree upping them would be a good idea (maybe not to V16, though)

Yes, but how many players will actually be able to get those?

They will be limited to a very few individuals who use multiple toons to conquer the boards.

All those over-achievers competing for the BEST SETS IN THE GAME. Oh, wait?

Recremen · August 2015

On a recent ESO live they mentioned that trials just weren't built to scale, much as the other dungeons weren't built to scale. There appeared to be an implicit message that they might be changing them like how they changed the normal dungeons, but that it would be an involved process and take time. Soooo here's hoping!

F7sus4 · August 2015

Recremen wrote: »

On a recent ESO live they mentioned that trials just weren't built to scale, much as the other dungeons weren't built to scale. There appeared to be an implicit message that they might be changing them like how they changed the normal dungeons, but that it would be an involved process and take time. Soooo here's hoping!

Scaling Trials the way dungeons are scaled doesn't make much sense, since you need one standardized environment for fair leaderboards results.

Robbmrp · August 2015

F7sus4 wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

On a recent ESO live they mentioned that trials just weren't built to scale, much as the other dungeons weren't built to scale. There appeared to be an implicit message that they might be changing them like how they changed the normal dungeons, but that it would be an involved process and take time. Soooo here's hoping!

Scaling Trials the way dungeons are scaled doesn't make much sense, since you need one standardized environment for fair leaderboards results.

With CP you don't have "Fair" leaderboard results as it is. Any high CP group will be able to clear the trial faster than any other group and remain on top of the leaderboards every week. Don't quote me, but I believe that's what's happening already isn't it?

timidobserver · August 2015

Robbmrp wrote: »

F7sus4 wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

On a recent ESO live they mentioned that trials just weren't built to scale, much as the other dungeons weren't built to scale. There appeared to be an implicit message that they might be changing them like how they changed the normal dungeons, but that it would be an involved process and take time. Soooo here's hoping!

Scaling Trials the way dungeons are scaled doesn't make much sense, since you need one standardized environment for fair leaderboards results.

With CP you don't have "Fair" leaderboard results as it is. Any high CP group will be able to clear the trial faster than any other group and remain on top of the leaderboards every week. Don't quote me, but I believe that's what's happening already isn't it?

Keeping trials relevant and cps imbalance are completely different discussions. Fixing CP is a long-term complex problem with many variables. Keeping trials relevant in 2.1 is easy. Just move the mobs and gear to v16.

Robbmrp · August 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

F7sus4 wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

On a recent ESO live they mentioned that trials just weren't built to scale, much as the other dungeons weren't built to scale. There appeared to be an implicit message that they might be changing them like how they changed the normal dungeons, but that it would be an involved process and take time. Soooo here's hoping!

Scaling Trials the way dungeons are scaled doesn't make much sense, since you need one standardized environment for fair leaderboards results.

With CP you don't have "Fair" leaderboard results as it is. Any high CP group will be able to clear the trial faster than any other group and remain on top of the leaderboards every week. Don't quote me, but I believe that's what's happening already isn't it?

Keeping trials relevant and cps imbalance are completely different discussions. Fixing CP is a long-term complex problem with many variables. Keeping trials relevant in 2.1 is easy. Just move the mobs and gear to v16.

They are different. My comment was mainly directed as there's no such thing as "fair leaderboard results" at the moment so it wouldn't matter if Trials were scaled to V16. CP will always have an impact on any dungeon/trial results.

Morimizo · August 2015

I think there is a very slight chance this MIGHT eventually happen, but as usual, we'll have to wait quite a while. They want to sell IC, want everyone in the DLC area, and *not in previously released content* when trying to acquire new crafting materials, new gear, etc...

Once Orsinium releases, maybe everything PVE oriented will scale to V18 (or whatever equivalent). It is more likely that it will not; many have asked for separate instance delves/trials that would scale to leader, but it apparently is not going to happen. Again, new gear will be inside the area of whichever DLC introduces it, or players can obtain it for heaps of gold in guild stores.

I agree with the OP, it would be more fun, give folks more choices (leaderboards can be added per level rank); I highly doubt it will happen tho, unfortunately.

AhPook_Is_Here · August 2015

Robbmrp wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

F7sus4 wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

On a recent ESO live they mentioned that trials just weren't built to scale, much as the other dungeons weren't built to scale. There appeared to be an implicit message that they might be changing them like how they changed the normal dungeons, but that it would be an involved process and take time. Soooo here's hoping!

Scaling Trials the way dungeons are scaled doesn't make much sense, since you need one standardized environment for fair leaderboards results.

With CP you don't have "Fair" leaderboard results as it is. Any high CP group will be able to clear the trial faster than any other group and remain on top of the leaderboards every week. Don't quote me, but I believe that's what's happening already isn't it?

Keeping trials relevant and cps imbalance are completely different discussions. Fixing CP is a long-term complex problem with many variables. Keeping trials relevant in 2.1 is easy. Just move the mobs and gear to v16.

They are different. My comment was mainly directed as there's no such thing as "fair leaderboard results" at the moment so it wouldn't matter if Trials were scaled to V16. CP will always have an impact on any dungeon/trial results.

Level could just be a calculation in the score, the same way HM is a multiplier. Shouldn't be the biggest of problems to adjust, and then scoring becomes based on vr16 for any competitive guilds.

Still they won't do it because they want you to buy IC.

nimander99 · August 2015

I'm excited to be able to solo upper Crag and finish just about everything.

Carter_DC · August 2015

I couldn't agree more with OP.

There's actually (on live) no incentive for doing trials (except for vdsa).
atm 2 loot gears from SO may be usefull for vr14 stam builds, but that's all.

With IC and vr16, there will be not a single reason to do trials, except for some kind of pseudo glory of bashing vr12 and vr14 mobs.

Trials should never scale, but they surely should be raised. VR16 for SO and VDSA and at least vr14 for AA and Hel Ra.
AND WITH DECENT LOOTS !

and btw, it has been said that there will be no new trial with orsinium. (eso live from ... idr)

byrom101b16_ESO · August 2015

Carter_DC wrote: »

I couldn't agree more with OP.

There's actually (on live) no incentive for doing trials (except for vdsa).
atm 2 loot gears from SO may be usefull for vr14 stam builds, but that's all.

With IC and vr16, there will be not a single reason to do trials, except for some kind of pseudo glory of bashing vr12 and vr14 mobs.

Trials should never scale, but they surely should be raised. VR16 for SO and VDSA and at least vr14 for AA and Hel Ra.
AND WITH DECENT LOOTS !

and btw, it has been said that there will be no new trial with orsinium. (eso live from ... idr)

I think vet 15 gear from AA and Hel Ra, vet 16 from last three stages and final boss in vDSA and vet 16 from all SO bosses.

F7sus4 · August 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

Keeping trials relevant and cps imbalance are completely different discussions. Fixing CP is a long-term complex problem with many variables. Keeping trials relevant in 2.1 is easy. Just move the mobs and gear to v16.

Yes, that was my initial statement - to have fixed environment which goes OK with VR16 Trials only. But definitely not the way dungeons are (down)scaled, like the first person I quoted proposed.

Robbmrp wrote: »

With CP you don't have "Fair" leaderboard results as it is. Any high CP group will be able to clear the trial faster than any other group and remain on top of the leaderboards every week. Don't quote me, but I believe that's what's happening already isn't it?

CP imbalance is the most commonly believed M'aiq of TES II: Daggerfall.

- Oh, wait. But there was no M'aiq in TES II.
- Exactly.

Olivierko · August 2015

F7sus4 wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

On a recent ESO live they mentioned that trials just weren't built to scale, much as the other dungeons weren't built to scale. There appeared to be an implicit message that they might be changing them like how they changed the normal dungeons, but that it would be an involved process and take time. Soooo here's hoping!

Scaling Trials the way dungeons are scaled doesn't make much sense, since you need one standardized environment for fair leaderboards results.

Sure, but that wouldn't stop them from scaling it up to v16 for everyone.

Septimus_Magna · August 2015

Trails were not designed to scale according to Rich Lambert. They are currently working on the new trail so I dont expect the old trails to be scaled to v16.

But what was the reason to repeat trails after 1.6 anyway? The loot from trails has been very disappointing for a long time, hopefully the new trail will drop useful loot.

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2015

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

But what was the reason to repeat trails after 1.6 anyway? The loot from trails has been very disappointing for a long time, hopefully the new trail will drop useful loot.

For... fun ? You see, games are supposed to provide fun... trial runs are a lot of fun imho.
And to help new guildies achieve them, teaching the mechanics and strats...

F7sus4 wrote: »

CP imbalance is the most commonly believed M'aiq of TES II: Daggerfall.
- Oh, wait. But there was no M'aiq in TES II.
- Exactly.

Love this one

Flameheart · August 2015

The sloppy implementation and current treatment of trials and especially their loot tables (never seen so many junk drops in masses in compare to any other [fill in random MMO] raid zone...) makes me think that PvE raiding isn't a desired feature in this game.

While the hardmodes are still relative well scaled and give you some problems to overcome, just Manticore is a raid boss as it should be on normal mode. For the most other bosses you are able to evade whole boss mechanics by just nuking and overhealing them down due to sheer CP power.

In addition it makes me utterly sad that Craglorn dungeons are filled with utter crap drops and have a too low difficulty level for even a 0 CP character. I do/did them with my V14 chars at least once just to appreciate the developers' work for the amazing dungeon grafics. Reutilzation value = zero...what a waste...

While you are able to achieve good V14 gear by PvP (no moaning from my side), by crafting (still no moaning, this is a great feature that crafting actually makes sense in this game), by running 4-men group content (some of the V12 unique set drops are still great), you get seriously underpowered V12 gear with useless bonuses in trials and even hardmode trials...and they don't want to change that ? seriously ?

Merlin13KAGL · August 2015

Weekly reward, and ironically, just for something different to do.

Hard to say the second part, as that's been about all there is to do at endgame for some time now.

Septimus_Magna · August 2015

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

But what was the reason to repeat trails after 1.6 anyway? The loot from trails has been very disappointing for a long time, hopefully the new trail will drop useful loot.

For... fun ? You see, games are supposed to provide fun... trial runs are a lot of fun imho.
And to help new guildies achieve them, teaching the mechanics and strats...

Fun is important but there are very few aspects that keep trails fun for a longer period. The AI and boss mechanics are predictable, no useful rewards and very little challenge unless you do hard-mode. Most fun in mmo's comes from progression and getting rare rewards for difficult events, trails lack every aspect of that imho.

If you really like pve than vDSA would be more interesting, at least you get useful loot, a lot more XP thus CPs and its more challenging.

AlnilamE · August 2015

I think there is some confusion about what the OP meant.

I think he meant the Trials should be Upgraded to V16 (or at least V14 for AA, HRC and DSA and V16 for SO and vDSA).

Not that Trials should scaled from V1-V16 based on group leader level.

Robbmrp · August 2015

AlnilamE wrote: »

I think there is some confusion about what the OP meant.

I think he meant the Trials should be Upgraded to V16 (or at least V14 for AA, HRC and DSA and V16 for SO and vDSA).

Not that Trials should scaled from V1-V16 based on group leader level.

That's exactly what I meant. When new content is released, they should always make Trials the max level they can be. Otherwise there's no point in running them. If your V18, your not going to be running lower level trials as they will be too boring.

@ZOS should convert existing Trials to 4 man dungeons and add in all new Trials. Based on their previous information about releasing a DLC every quarter, they should add new Trials at least every 6 months. This keeps people running them as they are getting newer ones and have to learn the new mechanics. They don't have to give new gear with every Trial, but they should increase the gear level when those V levels go up. Veteran levels aren't going away by the way.....IMO

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2015

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

But what was the reason to repeat trails after 1.6 anyway? The loot from trails has been very disappointing for a long time, hopefully the new trail will drop useful loot.

For... fun ? You see, games are supposed to provide fun... trial runs are a lot of fun imho.
And to help new guildies achieve them, teaching the mechanics and strats...

Fun is important but there are very few aspects that keep trails fun for a longer period. The AI and boss mechanics are predictable, no useful rewards and very little challenge unless you do hard-mode. Most fun in mmo's comes from progression and getting rare rewards for difficult events, trails lack every aspect of that imho.

If you really like pve than vDSA would be more interesting, at least you get useful loot, a lot more XP thus CPs and its more challenging.

I agree with you there's a problem with trials' rewards and loot... and I agree with you about predictable mechanics, but SO, SO HM, AA HM and HR HM still provde enough difficulty to be fun.

And normal version are still quite challenging to newbie groups (provided half the group isn't filled with experienced VR14).

But VDSA... sorry, that's the MOST BORING THING EVER. All mechanics in there are predictable, including spawning points (if you can call that a mechanic...) and all said mechanics can be avoided (and are avoided) by DPS burst. Thus ALL runs are exact copies. I just fall asleep doing this : no fun. I agree that rewards and loot are more interesting. But fun is more important imho. (But, yes, all rewards should be worthy, we'll agree on that).

I think these trials (at least HR and AA) and this arena will soon no belong to "end-game" anymore soon, when there are new trials. They will be "mid-level" trials for people leveling. Sort of milestone, but not endgame milestone.

AhPook_Is_Here · August 2015

Carter_DC wrote: »

I couldn't agree more with OP.

and btw, it has been said that there will be no new trial with orsinium. (eso live from ... idr)

Hope that isn't true, I am pretty on the fence about bothering to buy this expansion, and a another that is JUST a leveling zone with maybe a few more vet dungeons, I would have no interest at all in. By the time they released a new trials I may have forgot I played this game at all. When did DSA come out, almost a year ago? Glaciers move faster than ZoS.

kogadrake · August 2015

The reasons to run them after IC will be the same as now, for FUN.

The drops in general are all junk (masters weps are likely the main exception), and most of the ones that a decent have non-trial equivalent build setups, so the builds using the trial sets are more for novelty.

The main issue I see is in the masters weps, these are the only area where not scaling from VR14 to VR16 will hurt in my opinion. VR13 masters can be better then a VR14 crafted set in some cases, but I dont see a VR14 masters being better then a VR16 crafted with set bonus and normal enchantment (maybe the sword with heal since tanks DPS isnt a main focus).

So at IC I will do trials for the same reason as now, for fun and something to do.

BatterStick · September 2015

The real question is..

Lokov · September 2015

Rioht wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Will the weekly reward bags scale to V16?

If so, there's your reason.

Though I agree upping them would be a good idea (maybe not to V16, though)

Yes, but how many players will actually be able to get those?

They will be limited to a very few individuals who use multiple toons to conquer the boards.

who prevents you to make same things?

The Elder Scrolls Online

When IC is here, what's the point of running Trials that won't scale to V16?????

Best Answer