DK needs a love - long

trimsic_ESO · August 2015

There are at least 4 main archetypes in an MMORPG PVP oriented game:
- A DPS archetype, dealing damage with physical weapons - often a melee DPS, but can be at range with a bow
- A DPS archetype, dealing damage with magical spells - often a range DPS, but can be a PBAOE nuker
- A healer archetype, providing support to the team
- A tank archetype, holding the line and protecting his allies at the front line

If you want to be a damage dealer and strike your enemies hard with your weapons, then the Night Blade is the right choice. I know people who manage to have some relatively good results with their DK in this role, but to be honest a NB performs much better.

If you want to be a damage dealer and strike your enemies hard with your spells, then the Sorc is the right choice. As for stamina DKs, magicka DKs can somehow succeed in this role, but the sorcerer performs much better.

If you want to be a healer, the Templar is clearly the right choice.

And if you want to be a tank, the Dragon Knight looks as the right class. Being a tank with a magicka build is currently the best choice on the live server. I'm not saying that it's not possible to be a tank with a stamina build, but it's just better with a magicka build. The class skills of the DK are what makes the DK be a strong tank, and if you block wisely and equip the right sets, then you don't have any issue with your stamina bar.

But with the 1.7 changes, tanking is just another story. In PVE, it's OK and even more fun than before. But in PVP, it's no longer possible to play a tank role and hold the line. DKs are quickly out of stamina, and when this happens, it's over.

So, why should we play a DK in PVP?
- To be a melee DPS class? Then play a NB.
- To be a magical DPS class? Then play a Sorc.
- To be a healer class? Then play a Templar.
- To be a tank class, holding the line for your friends? Well, in 1.7 it's quite hard, to say the least.

Dragon Knights need a love in PVP:
- They do not have escape abilities like the NB or the sorc; their only way to survive a fight is to tank until reinforcement arrives. They need a love in their tanking and support abilities (no escape spell, it's not their role).
- They do not have any burst damage capabilities in their class skills but lava whip, and it's only available to magicka DKs. Stamina DKs need more stamina morphs of their class skills, like for example a stamina version of lava whip. The 2 dots in ardent flame are great in PVE, but in PVP they are often purged and therefore quite ineffective. They also lack stamina versions of defensive class skills. For instance, Reflective Scale is great, but it costs too much magicka for a stamina DK. And now that dodge roll and blocking have been nerfed, they lack some alternatives to mitigate damage. It would be sad to see only DKs with a staff in PVP.
- They should be some sort of a hybrid class: not a glass canon melee DPS class like the NB, nor a glass canon magical DPS class like the Sorcs, but instead a support class with better tanking and buff / debuff capabilities, and some decent DPS. Some sort of a support/DPS role we can see in many other MMOs.

IMHO, DK will be a dying class when 1.7 is released. The tests I've performed on the PTS did not manage to convince me that this class is as effective as other classes in the same role. The DK has been nerfed too many times, and now we can feel it hard.

The problem is that we can't expect any change to the DK before at least the next DLC (Orsinium), and this means that DKs will have to wait for a long time before they get more balanced.

aco5712 · August 2015

Found a new build. Disregard this

BuggeX · August 2015

Just wait until someone found the god-like Setup for the DK. I guess it will be somthing between Magicka and Hybrid, well i will Setup my hybrid build and dominate Cyrodiil/IC....
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trimsic_ESO · August 2015

Hybrid build seems to be the way indeed. But this is very theoretical, and while I salute new ideas like the build presented by @aco5712 , I'm still waiting for more concrete testing and return from experience.

My own experience from the PTS was not very convincing to say the least...

@aco5712 , if you have the time to test your build, please let us know how you feel about it.

Armitas · August 2015

What I think really makes the DK bad right now is the inability to be defensive and offensive at the same time. Sorcs can buff their shields and their dps simultaneously with high mobility and mines for proximity denial, NB can go dps and rely on cloak for defense, templars can be defensive till your at 50% then pull out a Farsight XR20 and execute you twice before it even animates, or they can just sit at max range and keep it on you till you pop from someone elses class. Pretty much everything we had when this game was released has been nerfed hard so there is nothing left to combine offense with defense.

Then you had the whole Nirncrux debacle coupled with a nerf to light armor that just annihilated magicka DKs and they let it go on till 1.7.

If you are a DK and you want to know how much ZOS loves you, just take a look at your DK chains. If you want to see how much they listen, just see our complaints about the prep time on Molten Armaments for PvP, and their response in 1.7 to increase that prep time by requiring you to perform a full heavy attack.

aco5712 · August 2015

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Hybrid build seems to be the way indeed. But this is very theoretical, and while I salute new ideas like the build presented by @aco5712 , I'm still waiting for more concrete testing and return from experience.

My own experience from the PTS was not very convincing to say the least...

@aco5712 , if you have the time to test your build, please let us know how you feel about it.

i will be running it on live when it drops so i will let ya know.

Armitas wrote: »

What I think really makes the DK bad right now is the inability to be defensive and offensive at the same time. Sorcs can buff their shields and their dps simultaneously with high mobility and mines for proximity denial, NB can go dps and rely on cloak for defense, templars can be defensive till your at 50% then pull out a Farsight XR20 and execute you twice before it even animates, or they can just sit at max range and keep it on you till you pop after someone hits you twice. Then you had the whole Nirncrux debacle coupled with a nerf to light armor that just annihilated magicka DKs and they let it go on till 1.7.

If you are a DK and you want to know how much ZOS loves you, just take a look at your DK chains.

i fully agree with you. with the dragon blood nerf, we lost our heal and as such our defense. heck, they even nerfed the flame lash heal to make it a dot. DK lacks burst so thats tough aswell not to mention the lack of a execute. DKs were made to be support/tanks just judging by their skills, passives etc. This has pretty much pigeoned them into that role just like templars were forced to be healers from beta until like 1.5/6.

I will try to set up a heavy armoured spell damage DK but i only see that being viable on dunmer DKs because of the fire damage bonus. We will see what 1.7 holds for DK haha.

Leandor · August 2015

Can't comment. Upon reading the topic, I immediately thought about this little piece. Then started thinking whether OP wanted to imply that DKs are actually similar to the lady. Proceeded to giggle insanely. People start staring. Need to stop now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12tce-THLUE

EnOeZ · August 2015

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

There are at least 4 main archetypes in an MMORPG PVP oriented game:
- A DPS archetype, dealing damage with physical weapons - often a melee DPS, but can be at range with a bow
- A DPS archetype, dealing damage with magical spells - often a range DPS, but can be a PBAOE nuker
- A healer archetype, providing support to the team
- A tank archetype, holding the line and protecting his allies at the front line

If you want to be a damage dealer and strike your enemies hard with your weapons, then the Night Blade is the right choice. I know people who manage to have some relatively good results with their DK in this role, but to be honest a NB performs much better.

If you want to be a damage dealer and strike your enemies hard with your spells, then the Sorc is the right choice. As for stamina DKs, magicka DKs can somehow succeed in this role, but the sorcerer performs much better.

If you want to be a healer, the Templar is clearly the right choice.

And if you want to be a tank, the Dragon Knight looks as the right class. Being a tank with a magicka build is currently the best choice on the live server. I'm not saying that it's not possible to be a tank with a stamina build, but it's just better with a magicka build. The class skills of the DK are what makes the DK be a strong tank, and if you block wisely and equip the right sets, then you don't have any issue with your stamina bar.

But with the 1.7 changes, tanking is just another story. In PVE, it's OK and even more fun than before. But in PVP, it's no longer possible to play a tank role and hold the line. DKs are quickly out of stamina, and when this happens, it's over.

So, why should we play a DK in PVP?
- To be a melee DPS class? Then play a NB.
- To be a magical DPS class? Then play a Sorc.
- To be a healer class? Then play a Templar.
- To be a tank class, holding the line for your friends? Well, in 1.7 it's quite hard, to say the least.

Dragon Knights need a love in PVP:
- They do not have escape abilities like the NB or the sorc; their only way to survive a fight is to tank until reinforcement arrives. They need a love in their tanking and support abilities (no escape spell, it's not their role).
- They do not have any burst damage capabilities in their class skills but lava whip, and it's only available to magicka DKs. Stamina DKs need more stamina morphs of their class skills, like for example a stamina version of lava whip. The 2 dots in ardent flame are great in PVE, but in PVP they are often purged and therefore quite ineffective. They also lack stamina versions of defensive class skills. For instance, Reflective Scale is great, but it costs too much magicka for a stamina DK. And now that dodge roll and blocking have been nerfed, they lack some alternatives to mitigate damage. It would be sad to see only DKs with a staff in PVP.
- They should be some sort of a hybrid class: not a glass canon melee DPS class like the NB, nor a glass canon magical DPS class like the Sorcs, but instead a support class with better tanking and buff / debuff capabilities, and some decent DPS. Some sort of a support/DPS role we can see in many other MMOs.

IMHO, DK will be a dying class when 1.7 is released. The tests I've performed on the PTS did not manage to convince me that this class is as effective as other classes in the same role. The DK has been nerfed too many times, and now we can feel it hard.

The problem is that we can't expect any change to the DK before at least the next DLC (Orsinium), and this means that DKs will have to wait for a long time before they get more balanced.

I so much agree with you, but honestly I don't even have the strength to make a billionth post on this issue.
I hope you will have more success than I did though.

DK, especially Heavy Armor Stamina, melee are stupidly designed as simple target dummies for sorcs and NBs.
Will think about an impossible fights series.

Everything has been said :

Low resource management (in Heavy Stam),
Low DPS (if not magicka)
No class Gap closer that works
No class Execute
No class Spammagle DPS ability that matters for a sorc shield user
No passive or mechanism to endure the kiting and burst classes like for example my proposal of 30% cost reduction to all stamina class and weapon abilities and mechanisms (dodge, block, cc break...) for 6 sec after being victim of a snare, soft or hard CC. Otherwise we are just target dummies for a kiting mage or a bomb blade (at similar skill lvl of course)

Vanzen · August 2015

I ve made a anti nb build on pts. Fun and really efficient as everyone and their cousins are nb ...

MaxwellC · August 2015

DKs can only rely on CP at this point. I play live on consoles but I've also played the PTS for day (time wise) and just like the OP stated I found it difficult to continue on.
On live I'm mainly an off-set (DPS 1st bar but 2nd bar is all about you surviving and trapping), when it came to out DPSing someone else that wasn't a DK it became very difficult. I found myself spamming dragon fire scale just to mitigate the damage I took but after that I either found myself fear spammed or bolt escaped on.

On live (consoles) I'm just about to hit 90 CP and unfortunately that's not enough, I'm going to need a minimum 150 CP at this rate.

Dracane · August 2015

So how come, Dragonknights have the highest DPS out of all classes since the game exists ?
I can't agree with OP on his damage theory.

But Dragonknights offer much space for improvements, just like any other classes. All classes are loosing so much potential at the moment. Dragonknights are the tankiest class and also the strongest DPS class, they have 2 roles that they perform better than any other class. Which doesn't mean, that Dragonknights couldn't use some improvements/changes here and there to emphazise build diversity. But then again, this is the case with each class.

Armitas · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

So how come, Dragonknights have the highest DPS out of all classes since the game exists ?
I can't agree with OP on his damage theory.

What is the highest dps right now and what boss is used as reference?

trimsic_ESO · August 2015

Leandor wrote: »

Can't comment. Upon reading the topic, I immediately thought about this little piece. Then started thinking whether OP wanted to imply that DKs are actually similar to the lady. Proceeded to giggle insanely. People start staring. Need to stop now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12tce-THLUE

Unless I'm wrong, this picture is from the movie "full metal jacket". I'd love to have a full metal jacket DK, but I'm afraid it's just a dream.

trimsic_ESO · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

So how come, Dragonknights have the highest DPS out of all classes since the game exists ?
I can't agree with OP on his damage theory.

But Dragonknights offer much space for improvements, just like any other classes. All classes are loosing so much potential at the moment. Dragonknights are the tankiest class and also the strongest DPS class, they have 2 roles that they perform better than any other class. Which doesn't mean, that Dragonknights couldn't use some improvements/changes here and there to emphazise build diversity. But then again, this is the case with each class.

I think you missed a few things. Stamina DK had a great DPS on live servers owing to the sharpened bug. This bug is now fixed in update 7, and we can see the true DPS of this class: it's at the end of the food chain.

Leandor · August 2015

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Can't comment. Upon reading the topic, I immediately thought about this little piece. Then started thinking whether OP wanted to imply that DKs are actually similar to the lady. Proceeded to giggle insanely. People start staring. Need to stop now.

<snip>

Unless I'm wrong, this picture is from the movie "full metal jacket". I'd love to have a full metal jacket DK, but I'm afraid it's just a dream.

Clicky - it's a video link. Yes, it's the famous "me love you long" scene from FMJ. I'm still giggling, btw. Faugh, I'm easily entertained...

BuggeX · August 2015

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

So how come, Dragonknights have the highest DPS out of all classes since the game exists ?
I can't agree with OP on his damage theory.

But Dragonknights offer much space for improvements, just like any other classes. All classes are loosing so much potential at the moment. Dragonknights are the tankiest class and also the strongest DPS class, they have 2 roles that they perform better than any other class. Which doesn't mean, that Dragonknights couldn't use some improvements/changes here and there to emphazise build diversity. But then again, this is the case with each class.

I think you missed a few things. Stamina DK had a great DPS on live servers owing to the sharpened bug. This bug is now fixed in update 7, and we can see the true DPS of this class: it's at the end of the food chain.

Magicka DK is still ontop in PVE since anyone is just moving out of Standard or purge the dots, his only dps is molten wipe with 5k dps now after the 50% dmg reduction

aco5712 · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

So how come, Dragonknights have the highest DPS out of all classes since the game exists ?
I can't agree with OP on his damage theory.

In PvE they do because they have so many dots and great sustain damage. PvP is not about sustain damage. Its about burst and DKs lack that in large strides compared to all the other classes and not to mention the lack of a execute hurts them tremendously in pvp. They were built for the tank role if you look at it from a archetype perspective hence why they lack burst and execute. Templars only recently got their execute and that made them a really nice class to play all round. NB and sorc have always been about that burst life.

Dracane · August 2015

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

So how come, Dragonknights have the highest DPS out of all classes since the game exists ?
I can't agree with OP on his damage theory.

But Dragonknights offer much space for improvements, just like any other classes. All classes are loosing so much potential at the moment. Dragonknights are the tankiest class and also the strongest DPS class, they have 2 roles that they perform better than any other class. Which doesn't mean, that Dragonknights couldn't use some improvements/changes here and there to emphazise build diversity. But then again, this is the case with each class.

I think you missed a few things. Stamina DK had a great DPS on live servers owing to the sharpened bug. This bug is now fixed in update 7, and we can see the true DPS of this class: it's at the end of the food chain.

I see, that's true.

But: 1. this was never intended, because it was a bug. You cannot consider this part of your DPS, because it was never intended. And all damage seems so terrible right now with this damage mitigation.

2. This affects all stamina fighters.

Stamina DDs usually benefit from a high weapon damage pool, because weapon damage can be raised easier than spell damage and can reach much higher numbers.

themdogesbite · August 2015

Honestly after this long and all the nerfs we recived i cant even justify leveling my DK to v16 when 1.7 hits besides using my undaunted keys. Almost whatever you come up with in a PvP enviorment will get outshined by a diffrent class playing the same thing.

PvP dmg? Every other class.

PvP healing? Templars.

PvP mobility? Sorcs / NBs.

PvP tanking? Nightblades.

PvP Target dummy? DK.

Im sure people will find a way to scrape by, but thats all it is compared to other classes. So far playing anything else on live compared to my DK almost feels like cheating.

Joy_Division · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

So how come, Dragonknights have the highest DPS out of all classes since the game exists ?
I can't agree with OP on his damage theory.

But Dragonknights offer much space for improvements, just like any other classes. All classes are loosing so much potential at the moment. Dragonknights are the tankiest class and also the strongest DPS class, they have 2 roles that they perform better than any other class. Which doesn't mean, that Dragonknights couldn't use some improvements/changes here and there to emphazise build diversity. But then again, this is the case with each class.

Magicka DKs damage is all about DoTs, Valkyn, Standard.

All suck in PvP because NB cloak, Templars Cleanse, Zergs purge, damage shield prevent Skoria prcos, and even recruits move out of your standard.

DisgracefulMind · August 2015

I think threads like these do better without comparing a class to other classes.

Armitas · August 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

So how come, Dragonknights have the highest DPS out of all classes since the game exists ?
I can't agree with OP on his damage theory.

But Dragonknights offer much space for improvements, just like any other classes. All classes are loosing so much potential at the moment. Dragonknights are the tankiest class and also the strongest DPS class, they have 2 roles that they perform better than any other class. Which doesn't mean, that Dragonknights couldn't use some improvements/changes here and there to emphazise build diversity. But then again, this is the case with each class.

Magicka DKs damage is all about DoTs, Valkyn, Standard.

All suck in PvP because NB cloak, Templars Cleanse, Zergs purge, damage shield prevent Skoria prcos, and even recruits move out of your standard.

So as not to break the dk nerfing tradition with each update they are nerfing our dots and valkyn. Our dots will effectively be useless for applying burning, which makes our kindling passive useless. Valkyn is losing about 2k on its damage. While nerien eth is getting buffed to inscrutable levels at 10% chance a hit to proc. Force pulse weave-n-done.

BuggeX · August 2015

Molten Whipe and Morph shoudl get a DMG Buff, i mean ZOS is always saying less Range = More DMG, thats also the Point 2H and DW has more Attack than Staffs and Bow

yodased · August 2015

I dunno, I do OK with my magic DK in PvP. When I was in the sewers with Panda on the PTS I had 0 trouble with my flame build.

I think it comes down to adapting to the situation and understanding that you aren't going to be able to play the same way as before.

Ryuho · August 2015

1 vs 1 DK tank on PTS is really hard to kill, with proper gear and caped spell resist u cant do *** vs such opponent, naturally from magicka build perspective, u need a lot of time to kill him.. Idk how but DKs on PTS are still permablocking, at least in 1 vs 1 situations, pop up block and spam whip like hell. I agree that DK dont have escape skill, but same goes for temps. Is DK weakest class in1.7? I think no, same spot as templars for me. NB is number 1 class this patch, then sorc.

BuggeX · August 2015

Ryuho wrote: »

1 vs 1 DK tank on PTS is really hard to kill, with proper gear and caped spell resist u cant do *** vs such opponent, naturally from magicka build perspective, u need a lot of time to kill him.. Idk how but DKs on PTS are still permablocking, at least in 1 vs 1 situations, pop up block and spam whip like hell. I agree that DK dont have escape skill, but same goes for temps. Is DK weakest class in1.7? I think no, same spot as templars for me. NB is number 1 class this patch, then sorc.

Well with the set wich give you Stamina back and the passives from DK, he could also perma block 5 ppls, but this is no isuess. The Problem about DK now is, with the dmg reduction, the has about no DMG, his strongest single Target spell with S/S is Molten Whipe which will do about 5-6k dps, dots are uselles in PVP if you dont fight a other DK without a purge.
The DK also miss plenty of passivas which increes the dmg or Penetration like other classes has, or a additional dmg proc.
I would say Change the passive "World in Flame" that all Ardent flame(or even all Flame Skills) get a DMG boost from 6% not just AOEs.
This would allready help us, even if ist just a small buff

Xeven · August 2015

Read title as DK needs a love song. Leaving disappointed.

Armitas · August 2015

Xeven wrote: »

Read title as DK needs a love song. Leaving disappointed.

Love bites, def leppard.

Baragorath · August 2015

aco5712 wrote: »

i have a theorycrafted tank build for pvp for my DK. Its obviously centered about tanking and wont be doing much damage at all but i feel like it could be pretty good. Need to test it once i can actually use the proper armour sets and have my group there for support heals but im looking like at stats like this:

27k Health
20k Stamina
20k Magicka

1.3k Magicka Recovery (unbuffed)
1.3k Stamina Recovery (unbuffed)

32k Spell Resistance (buffed)
27.5k Armour (buffed)

5 heavy
1 light
1 medium

SnB on both bars

Basically i have set up a range bar and a close up bar : http://esohead.com/calculator/skills#1.mzMz9s8uEAZ8dHka8ugIr8GsdT8uENM8GsbX8uvZx8fXiC8jKer8Gsrt8Gsq38jKEG8p7NbkHY8y7rbR3a8l7xbzoC6NzkA6Nzky6bzkg8B7JbzRf6bzsb6Nzsd6bzsw8Y7VbfJu6NfJN8zV7zzeCp48zf7zzNbo8zu7zzHfYE6zHfZd8zG7zzHQ3F8zI7zzJIoX6zJIkL8zN7zzJZcY8zA7zzKpUN8zL7zzK4EX

I really think that tanking will be possible in pvp with a DK more then any other class.

I think with penetrations all being fixed and damage being reduced by 50%, not blocking wont be the complete death of you.

Between having 40-50% standard mitigation from armour/spell res, 20% dodge from shuffle, Reflecting from scale and defensive stance, 4.2k damage shield from igenous, dragon blood heals, elusive mist, magma shell, devouring swarm, my build has lots of safety if you need to drop your block so you can regen stamina.

Couple that with all the ways to regen stamina -> 3 earthern heart abilities for 1k stamina return on cast -> heavy attacks -> 1.3k regen unbuffed -> stamina regain enchant on weapon -> redguard passive (if your redguard) -> ultimates -> potions.

I dont think tanking is dead in pvp. I think tanking is still doable especially with a DK but it requires more thought and management. And DK is the best support class in this game imo so i think that DKs arent dead with this new patch, i just think the ones who really want to play them will continue and find ways to do it. DKs arent going to be able to tank and dps at the same time like before but they can most certainly play the tank/support role the best in this next patch.

And how long you wanna stay with this build alive?

Regen health will make you enemy alive while you gonna drink pots for resources and drop ultimates.

No thank you Zenimax.

and Eric Wrobel - who will be well known as DK Destroyer from incoming week.

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2015

Yes DKs need alot of love for PvP ( Along with Heavy Armor ) were nearly all gone from it on PTS. Yes we were a problem a year ago with those players you know Dunmer Vampires DK who caused alot of problems but ZoS nerfed that and some reason didn't stop there and continued to nerf us for the next year making us barley any good for tanking in PvE. We have suffered enough and we need love just enough to be a valid choice in PvE and PvP again.

Thecapeo · August 2015

It would be nice if DOTs weren't so easily countered in PVP so that almost all our class damage abilities wouldn't be completely ineffectual. That would be a nice start.