AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Maybe they should stop being lazy and just add a 3rd morph to every skill, then there could be STA and Magicka builds for every ability!

Take my money already !

Kaliki wrote: »

Why not use Trap Beast from the Fighters Guild? Wouldn't it be better than Daedric Mines?
From what I've seen the ability got a buff on PTS, giving you crit damage bonus...

Maybe if they let you throw multiple traps, but just the one is a joke.

Jakeol wrote: »

It almost sounds like a stam sorc should be a carbon copy of current magicka sorcs. You should hit up FENGRUSH for stam sorc builds, since he was doing it on live before it was cool.

no, i just suggested mines, i dont want crystal frags or shields not a copy at all

I think that different builds should have different flavors. A stam blade won't have access to a stam version of prox det, and no stam morphs for the siphoning tree. There won't be a stam morph for shadow cloak, nor should there be. There should be a distinction between the two, not either or getting all the options essentially making magicka and stam the same...

Jakeol wrote: »

I think that different builds should have different flavors. A stam blade won't have access to a stam version of prox det, and no stam morphs for the siphoning tree. There won't be a stam morph for shadow cloak, nor should there be. There should be a distinction between the two, not either or getting all the options essentially making magicka and stam the same...

@Jakeol I don't disagree with you but I think you missed my point. Stam Nbs do have access to their bred and butter abilities; they do have a stam morph of teleport strike for instance, and while there is no morph of shadow cloak, it is a viable option as a magicka sink. Now think what are the stam sorc equivalents of those abilities? They pail in comparison -- which then begs the question, why bother playing a stam sorc at all? Why is it even offered as a class race combo if its just a nightblade with low damage that requires a degree in alchemy?

Jakeol wrote: »

Why couldn't mines serve a magicka sink as it stands right now? They're mostly area of denial (psych someone out from moving there) anyway. If you actually rely on them to do damage even as a magicka sorc then you're doing it wrong.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong then, but they hit fairly hard on my magicka sorc and I actually try and time my burst damage for when the person decides to go through my mines. In addition, they cost a TON of magicka and absolutely tickle in a stam spec.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Jakeol wrote: »

I think that different builds should have different flavors. A stam blade won't have access to a stam version of prox det, and no stam morphs for the siphoning tree. There won't be a stam morph for shadow cloak, nor should there be. There should be a distinction between the two, not either or getting all the options essentially making magicka and stam the same...

@Jakeol I don't disagree with you but I think you missed my point. Stam Nbs do have access to their bred and butter abilities; they do have a stam morph of teleport strike for instance, and while there is no morph of shadow cloak, it is a viable option as a magicka sink. Now think what are the stam sorc equivalents of those abilities? They pail in comparison -- which them begs the question, why bother playing a stam sorc at all? Why is it even offered as a class race combo if its just a nightblade with low damage that requires a degree in alchemy?

i would argue that nb were created with the idea that they would be best at stamina dps and the the sorcs were created with the idea that they would be best magicka dps. Which i think was great. although this game was made with the idea being "play as you want," that does not necessarily mean that they way you want to play will be the most effective way to play.

as for the mines getting a stam morph, I think they should so it. it only makes sense. One, it still keeps sorcs with the hardest hitting single target magicka ability, and the nb with the hardest hitting stamina single target ability. two, it gives stam sorcs a viable ability to use. three, ZoS basically said that the skills they added morph to were the most reasonable b/c of the types of the abilities they are. Meaning, it made sense to make suprise attack stamina based. it falls in line with the vision of a nb. it is a melee attack. this is important for immersive purposes. Basically, if your shooting lighting from yourself, it does not make since to give it a stamina morph. this is obviously a magical ability. so, because mines is essentially a melee ability (or at least is an acceptable type of ability to envision a stam morph) it would fall in line with the type of ability that they have morphed to stamina.

all in all, give sorc mines!

@bowmanz607 I appreciate your support of sorc changes and your initial argument about the underlying premises of sorcs and nightblades, but I have seen this argument before and I have to say the "play as you want, but effectiveness is aa coin toss" argument is a flawed one. Of course, no one expects every combination of skills to be equally viable. However:

(1) That's why we are here, arguing that stam sorcs need improvement, because they are probably the least competitive class in PvP. In this instance it's not just "inefficiency for the sake of personal preference"

(2) A lot of pre-1.6 patch players didn't choose to play this class. Do you think I didn't use magicka for the first 5 patches? Of course I did. I used to have a dynamic balance between stamina, magicka, and health, and I used to use a mix of skills because when there were soft caps all skills were equally viable. 1.6 hits and any stam based class gets locked out of 70%~ of their class skills and two weapon lines.

Cathexis wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Jakeol wrote: »

I think that different builds should have different flavors. A stam blade won't have access to a stam version of prox det, and no stam morphs for the siphoning tree. There won't be a stam morph for shadow cloak, nor should there be. There should be a distinction between the two, not either or getting all the options essentially making magicka and stam the same...

@Jakeol I don't disagree with you but I think you missed my point. Stam Nbs do have access to their bred and butter abilities; they do have a stam morph of teleport strike for instance, and while there is no morph of shadow cloak, it is a viable option as a magicka sink. Now think what are the stam sorc equivalents of those abilities? They pail in comparison -- which them begs the question, why bother playing a stam sorc at all? Why is it even offered as a class race combo if its just a nightblade with low damage that requires a degree in alchemy?

i would argue that nb were created with the idea that they would be best at stamina dps and the the sorcs were created with the idea that they would be best magicka dps. Which i think was great. although this game was made with the idea being "play as you want," that does not necessarily mean that they way you want to play will be the most effective way to play.

as for the mines getting a stam morph, I think they should so it. it only makes sense. One, it still keeps sorcs with the hardest hitting single target magicka ability, and the nb with the hardest hitting stamina single target ability. two, it gives stam sorcs a viable ability to use. three, ZoS basically said that the skills they added morph to were the most reasonable b/c of the types of the abilities they are. Meaning, it made sense to make suprise attack stamina based. it falls in line with the vision of a nb. it is a melee attack. this is important for immersive purposes. Basically, if your shooting lighting from yourself, it does not make since to give it a stamina morph. this is obviously a magical ability. so, because mines is essentially a melee ability (or at least is an acceptable type of ability to envision a stam morph) it would fall in line with the type of ability that they have morphed to stamina.

all in all, give sorc mines!

@bowmanz607 I appreciate your support of sorc changes and your initial argument about the underlying premises of sorcs and nightblades, but I have seen this argument before and I have to say the "play as you want, but effectiveness is aa coin toss" argument is a flawed one. Of course, no one expects every combination of skills to be equally viable. However:

(1) That's why we are here, arguing that stam sorcs need improvement, because they are probably the least competitive class in PvP. In this instance it's not just "inefficiency for the sake of personal preference"

(2) A lot of pre-1.6 patch players didn't choose to play this class. Do you think I didn't use magicka for the first 5 patches? Of course I did. I used to have a dynamic balance between stamina, magicka, and health, and I used to use a mix of skills because when there were soft caps all skills were equally viable. 1.6 hits and any stam based class gets locked out of 70%~ of their class skills and two weapon lines.

I have to say. I miss 1.5. classes felt balanced. soft caps to prevent crazy stuff. stamina had a viable balance. respeccing simply meant changing gear. hybrid builds were possible. pvp was about skill and not grinding champion points. o man the good ole days.

Erock25 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

three, ZoS basically said that the skills they added morph to were the most reasonable b/c of the types of the abilities they are. Meaning, it made sense to make suprise attack stamina based. it falls in line with the vision of a nb. it is a melee attack. this is important for immersive purposes. Basically, if your shooting lighting from yourself, it does not make since to give it a stamina morph. this is obviously a magical ability. so, because mines is essentially a melee ability (or at least is an acceptable type of ability to envision a stam morph) it would fall in line with the type of ability that they have morphed to stamina.

Burning Breath for the DK is basically breathing fire so I don't think we should limit options for the physicality of the abilities animation. Either way, I don't really think summoning magical mines out of thin air looks like a stamina ability. They should change it to a weapon effect that detonates on the first heavy (or partial heavy aka medium) attack after a 3 second delay. The burst this would create in PVP would be an immediate game changer for a stam Sorc.

ya i understand the concern with conjuring mines out of thin air. the same can be said for jabs or javeline. the idea behind it though is that it resembles an item that can be thought as as a physical attack. the item being a javelin. this train of thought does not work for say a cystal frag. this is literally nothing but a magickal ability and can only really be perceived as a magical ability. Mines, however, can easily be thought of as a physical ability. mush like mines you would find on the ground today that explode. the train of thought being more analagous to the javeline example. it is all about perception. although it is not a practical excuse from a combat perspective, from an immersive perspective it is logical. Role players are a group in the game too. Not to mention, it is in the end still an elder scroll game that has to maintain some semblence of immersion. Lastly, this may just be the first transition of skills. if one was to simply make all the skills with a third morph you would have balance issues. not to mention, we will have spell crafting at some point. I would rather them continue to work on that balancing rather than the more balancing of the same skills.

No, sorc needs more magicka upgrades to help its dps... It is a sorcerer after all, makes now sense to have a 2h, bow yielding sorcerer, enough with the stamina sorc threads

There have been lots of suggestions relating to stamina sorcerers, ranging from morph changes, to 3 morphs, to passive morphs. The base problem is that zos did not understand the impact of 1.6 across the board and hence completely destroyed a number of fun and viable builds overnight - leaving a relatively small number of cookie-cutter builds remaining. Until zos realise this and realise what soft caps did wrt supporting hybrids and balance in general, we are likely to have a vast array of issues... because the game was originally balanced around soft caps. Now add in CPs and its a mess frankly.

The best option for zos would be to work on a complete overhaul of the skill system and CP interaction in the background. However that isn't likely to happen. The most elegant solution I have seen on the whole topic is to base the effectiveness of abilities off weapon and spell power only - making stamina and magicka resource pools with no impact on the actual abilities effectiveness. Why is this better? It keeps power creep to gear (ie weapons and +spell or weapon power) and CPs (ie mighty, etc). It also means that the base weapon will always provide a decent level of scaling for stamina builds using magicka abilities and visa-versa (just look a magicka builds that use dual wield because the get a greater spell power to understand why). It makes hybrids viable and makes niche sets with spell and weapon power a viable choice.

So if effectiveness were linked only to spell and weapon power, you could probably live without pet scaling, or shield morph changes (or shield nerfs), all class abilities would hit reasonably hard (and harder if specced for). It would probably mean the end of max stat meta and racial dominance by max stat races as well.. some might require a compensation tweak tbh... Maybe in the same timescales that Argonians got theirs

Erock25 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

three, ZoS basically said that the skills they added morph to were the most reasonable b/c of the types of the abilities they are. Meaning, it made sense to make suprise attack stamina based. it falls in line with the vision of a nb. it is a melee attack. this is important for immersive purposes. Basically, if your shooting lighting from yourself, it does not make since to give it a stamina morph. this is obviously a magical ability. so, because mines is essentially a melee ability (or at least is an acceptable type of ability to envision a stam morph) it would fall in line with the type of ability that they have morphed to stamina.

Burning Breath for the DK is basically breathing fire so I don't think we should limit options for the physicality of the abilities animation. Either way, I don't really think summoning magical mines out of thin air looks like a stamina ability. They should change it to a weapon effect that detonates on the first heavy (or partial heavy aka medium) attack after a 3 second delay. The burst this would create in PVP would be an immediate game changer for a stam Sorc.

ya i understand the concern with conjuring mines out of thin air. the same can be said for jabs or javeline. the idea behind it though is that it resembles an item that can be thought as as a physical attack. the item being a javelin. this train of thought does not work for say a cystal frag. this is literally nothing but a magickal ability and can only really be perceived as a magical ability. Mines, however, can easily be thought of as a physical ability. mush like mines you would find on the ground today that explode. the train of thought being more analagous to the javeline example. it is all about perception. although it is not a practical excuse from a combat perspective, from an immersive perspective it is logical. Role players are a group in the game too. Not to mention, it is in the end still an elder scroll game that has to maintain some semblence of immersion. Lastly, this may just be the first transition of skills. if one was to simply make all the skills with a third morph you would have balance issues. not to mention, we will have spell crafting at some point. I would rather them continue to work on that balancing rather than the more balancing of the same skills.

I guess I just disagree with you that a chunk of crystal is not a physical object while a pulsing light based proximity mine is.

a crystal conjured up out of thin air versus the idea of mines being thrown on the ground like you have them in your pocket. didnt say it was great, just passable.