@ZOS - why no class advocate or dev led class discussion topics?

Erock25 · August 2015

I'm not understanding certain decisions made by ZOS in regards to class and build tweaking and I'd love to get some insight into the thought process for these decisions. For example, stamina sorcs have been requesting a stam morph for crystal blast since 1.6 hit PTS, but maybe we are all wasting our time and in your combat team's opinion, this was never an option. It would be great if we had class advocates that could relay information back and forth between the devs and the players. An alternative is to have a class vision dev post for each class where devs can post why they make the decisions they do. For example, is it a conscious effort to only give stam dks dot based class abilities that scale with stamina?

I think it's important for ZOS to relay their own ideas of what each classes vision is and it would go a long way to let your players offer valid suggestions that actually fit within the devs vision of the class.

Dracane · August 2015

Hm. At this point I have to admit, that since this game exists, I felt like we players are imature kids and Zenimax are strict parents. They make decisions, but don't tell the kids until it happens, because they think kids are too stupid to understand it anyway and have no right to give their opinion.

Might sound harsh, but I never lost this feeling. I don't know, why there is no better communication between them and us.
I feel like I'm talking to god when talking to Zenimax, praying and hoping he hears me and makes my wishes come true.

eventide03b14a_ESO · August 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

I'm not understanding certain decisions made by ZOS in regards to class and build tweaking and I'd love to get some insight into the thought process for these decisions. For example, stamina sorcs have been requesting a stam morph for crystal blast since 1.6 hit PTS, but maybe we are all wasting our time and in your combat team's opinion, this was never an option. It would be great if we had class advocates that could relay information back and forth between the devs and the players. An alternative is to have a class vision dev post for each class where devs can post why they make the decisions they do. For example, is it a conscious effort to only give stam dks dot based class abilities that scale with stamina?

I think it's important for ZOS to relay their own ideas of what each classes vision is and it would go a long way to let your players offer valid suggestions that actually fit within the devs vision of the class.

We don't need stamina sorcs. I would rail against any changes to the sorc class, especially if they included any more stamina morphs.

Dracane · August 2015

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I'm not understanding certain decisions made by ZOS in regards to class and build tweaking and I'd love to get some insight into the thought process for these decisions. For example, stamina sorcs have been requesting a stam morph for crystal blast since 1.6 hit PTS, but maybe we are all wasting our time and in your combat team's opinion, this was never an option. It would be great if we had class advocates that could relay information back and forth between the devs and the players. An alternative is to have a class vision dev post for each class where devs can post why they make the decisions they do. For example, is it a conscious effort to only give stam dks dot based class abilities that scale with stamina?

I think it's important for ZOS to relay their own ideas of what each classes vision is and it would go a long way to let your players offer valid suggestions that actually fit within the devs vision of the class.

We don't need stamina sorcs. I would rail against any changes to the sorc class, especially if they included any more stamina morphs.

Agreed. Sorcerer is a mage, no Warrior. Sad to see how our own kind totally conquers this class and turns it into a fancy warrior. I can only repeat myself: I'm glad Zenimax found intelligent ways to not destroy Magicka Sorcerers. So far.... who knows where this is leading.

Aett_Thorn · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I'm not understanding certain decisions made by ZOS in regards to class and build tweaking and I'd love to get some insight into the thought process for these decisions. For example, stamina sorcs have been requesting a stam morph for crystal blast since 1.6 hit PTS, but maybe we are all wasting our time and in your combat team's opinion, this was never an option. It would be great if we had class advocates that could relay information back and forth between the devs and the players. An alternative is to have a class vision dev post for each class where devs can post why they make the decisions they do. For example, is it a conscious effort to only give stam dks dot based class abilities that scale with stamina?

I think it's important for ZOS to relay their own ideas of what each classes vision is and it would go a long way to let your players offer valid suggestions that actually fit within the devs vision of the class.

We don't need stamina sorcs. I would rail against any changes to the sorc class, especially if they included any more stamina morphs.

Agreed. Sorcerer is a mage, no Warrior. Sad to see how our own kind totally conquers this class and turns it into a fancy warrior. I can only repeat myself: I'm glad Zenimax found intelligent ways to not destroy Magicka Sorcerers. So far.... who knows where this is leading.

every class should be feasible at any given role in their own way. Trying to shoehorn a class into only one role (magika DPS) goes against this very design philosophy that the game was advertised on.

Sorcs should be both good Magika DPS, Stamina DPS and Tanks, just like any other class. If they are only good at one thing, then the class has a failed design.

Dracane · August 2015

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I'm not understanding certain decisions made by ZOS in regards to class and build tweaking and I'd love to get some insight into the thought process for these decisions. For example, stamina sorcs have been requesting a stam morph for crystal blast since 1.6 hit PTS, but maybe we are all wasting our time and in your combat team's opinion, this was never an option. It would be great if we had class advocates that could relay information back and forth between the devs and the players. An alternative is to have a class vision dev post for each class where devs can post why they make the decisions they do. For example, is it a conscious effort to only give stam dks dot based class abilities that scale with stamina?

I think it's important for ZOS to relay their own ideas of what each classes vision is and it would go a long way to let your players offer valid suggestions that actually fit within the devs vision of the class.

We don't need stamina sorcs. I would rail against any changes to the sorc class, especially if they included any more stamina morphs.

Agreed. Sorcerer is a mage, no Warrior. Sad to see how our own kind totally conquers this class and turns it into a fancy warrior. I can only repeat myself: I'm glad Zenimax found intelligent ways to not destroy Magicka Sorcerers. So far.... who knows where this is leading.

every class should be feasible at any given role in their own way. Trying to shoehorn a class into only one role (magika DPS) goes against this very design philosophy that the game was advertised on.

Sorcs should be both good Magika DPS, Stamina DPS and Tanks, just like any other class. If they are only good at one thing, then the class has a failed design.

That's true. But even Magicka Sorcerer relys on weapon abilities to deal sustained damage, because he has no spammable instant class ability with compareable damage. If stamina Sorcerers get one only, then it's unfair in my opinion.

GreyRanger · August 2015

This would be grand.

ColoursYouHave · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Agreed. Sorcerer is a mage, no Warrior. Sad to see how our own kind totally conquers this class and turns it into a fancy warrior. I can only repeat myself: I'm glad Zenimax found intelligent ways to not destroy Magicka Sorcerers. So far.... who knows where this is leading.

Apparently you are not too familiar with Elder Scrolls lore, which features multiple archetypes combining spells and weapon combat, such as a spellsword or a battlemage.

CP5 · August 2015

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Agreed. Sorcerer is a mage, no Warrior. Sad to see how our own kind totally conquers this class and turns it into a fancy warrior. I can only repeat myself: I'm glad Zenimax found intelligent ways to not destroy Magicka Sorcerers. So far.... who knows where this is leading.

Apparently you are not too familiar with Elder Scrolls lore, which features multiple archetypes combining spells and weapon combat, such as a spellsword or a battlemage.

In past games, a Night blade was as much a mage as a Sorcerer, but both used the spells for very different roles. Don't see people arguing that nb's can be more than one thing.

Ipsius · August 2015

Stamina morph of crystal shards is one of the goofiest requests I've heard. What, do you magically harden some sweat and... Throw it really hard? It's absurd.

My stamina sorc is absurdly strong, and going to get much stronger with the changes they're making in update 7. There's TONS of things available to sorcys that make them incredible stamina builds. If what they have isn't enough, why are you a even a sorcerer?

kkampaseb17_ESO · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I'm not understanding certain decisions made by ZOS in regards to class and build tweaking and I'd love to get some insight into the thought process for these decisions. For example, stamina sorcs have been requesting a stam morph for crystal blast since 1.6 hit PTS, but maybe we are all wasting our time and in your combat team's opinion, this was never an option. It would be great if we had class advocates that could relay information back and forth between the devs and the players. An alternative is to have a class vision dev post for each class where devs can post why they make the decisions they do. For example, is it a conscious effort to only give stam dks dot based class abilities that scale with stamina?

I think it's important for ZOS to relay their own ideas of what each classes vision is and it would go a long way to let your players offer valid suggestions that actually fit within the devs vision of the class.

We don't need stamina sorcs. I would rail against any changes to the sorc class, especially if they included any more stamina morphs.

Agreed. Sorcerer is a mage, no Warrior. Sad to see how our own kind totally conquers this class and turns it into a fancy warrior. I can only repeat myself: I'm glad Zenimax found intelligent ways to not destroy Magicka Sorcerers. So far.... who knows where this is leading.

This phrase is wrong. Both in Elder Scrolls lore and of course other RPG lores there are plenty archetypes of the Fighter/Mage hybrid like bladesinger, spellsword, swordmage, duskblade etc. Atm the only class the represents that is a Sorc for several reasons. The Fighter/Mage archetype is studying for his spell rather than just having them inherently like for example the Dragon Knight. Templar is divine....the Fighter/Mage has nothing to do with divine spells. Nightblade has rogue-ish spells that help him do his rogue-ninja stuff. This doesn't fall in the archetype either.

So in short, the best class atm to represent the Fighter/Mage archetype is the Sorcerer. So please rethink of what you are saying.

Erock25 · August 2015

This topic is about dev interaction and not magicka sorc vs stamina sorc but whatever.

Ipsius · August 2015

I agree they should use experienced players for feedback. I am truly curious what their process is once they decide something is going to change. The big skill changes happen, people complain for months, and the skill gets "tweaked" based on player feedback.

Why don't they just tap the player base to begin with and skip the months of complaining? It would be better in my opinion if they just asked frequent pvp-pve players what kind of effects they might expect from a proposed change.

This isn't having a group of players asking for changes. Not players determined to make their favorite build stronger. Just zos saying "Here. You've been playing since beta and you don't have a YouTube stream so you're not beholden to viewers or anything. We're changing x skill to do y instead. Here's why we changed it. How do you think this will work out?"

That would help keep loads of seemingly poorly thought-out changes from going live, and maybe give them some insight they sometimes seem to be lacking as to how people play.

Jar_Ek · August 2015

Class advocates might be difficult as they would need to be able to cover magicka, stamina, hybrid builds for dps, tanks, and healing without bias AND have enough knowledge to be able to compare to all the other classes operating in the same roles - which is a bit of a tall order for one person. But a stickies mod controller thread listing class issues and concerns might be good.

Dracane · August 2015

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Agreed. Sorcerer is a mage, no Warrior. Sad to see how our own kind totally conquers this class and turns it into a fancy warrior. I can only repeat myself: I'm glad Zenimax found intelligent ways to not destroy Magicka Sorcerers. So far.... who knows where this is leading.

Apparently you are not too familiar with Elder Scrolls lore, which features multiple archetypes combining spells and weapon combat, such as a spellsword or a battlemage.

I'm more than familiar with the lore, we can have a lore fight if you dare to challenge me.
Not sure if I consider classes part of the lore. Not sure if I heared of a Dragonknight in previous Elder Scrolls game.

If I hear the word Sorcerer, without knowing the Elder Scrolls, I'm thinking of a staff wielding mage in light armor. And that's what it should be and that's what this class looked like, until all the Stamina folks began to transform this class into a warrior. As if Sorcerer wouldn't be lackluster enough already, he suffers from enough issues in PvE and actually in PvP either, if we just ignore hardened Ward. Because this class IS lackluster, but Hardened Ward is a good disguise to hide this fact.

Rosveen · August 2015

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Agreed. Sorcerer is a mage, no Warrior. Sad to see how our own kind totally conquers this class and turns it into a fancy warrior. I can only repeat myself: I'm glad Zenimax found intelligent ways to not destroy Magicka Sorcerers. So far.... who knows where this is leading.

Apparently you are not too familiar with Elder Scrolls lore, which features multiple archetypes combining spells and weapon combat, such as a spellsword or a battlemage.

Elder Scrolls traditions regarding skills and roles don't mean squat in a game with pre-defined classes and exclusive class skills.

Dracane · August 2015

Rosveen wrote: »

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Agreed. Sorcerer is a mage, no Warrior. Sad to see how our own kind totally conquers this class and turns it into a fancy warrior. I can only repeat myself: I'm glad Zenimax found intelligent ways to not destroy Magicka Sorcerers. So far.... who knows where this is leading.

Apparently you are not too familiar with Elder Scrolls lore, which features multiple archetypes combining spells and weapon combat, such as a spellsword or a battlemage.

Elder Scrolls traditions regarding skills and roles don't mean squat in a game with pre-defined classes and exclusive class skills.

Exactly. Classes are defined by the developers and don't necessarily fit into the lore. They are pre-made ideas to help the player to find his path. That's why you can build your own class since Morrowind, well actually since Arena even.

And the classes in TESO... never saw such things in the Elder Scrolls before. I have no problem with this, but if people consider classes part of the lore..... well

Paulhewhewria · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Agreed. Sorcerer is a mage, no Warrior. Sad to see how our own kind totally conquers this class and turns it into a fancy warrior. I can only repeat myself: I'm glad Zenimax found intelligent ways to not destroy Magicka Sorcerers. So far.... who knows where this is leading.

Apparently you are not too familiar with Elder Scrolls lore, which features multiple archetypes combining spells and weapon combat, such as a spellsword or a battlemage.

I'm more than familiar with the lore, we can have a lore fight if you dare to challenge me.
Not sure if I consider classes part of the lore. Not sure if I heared of a Dragonknight in previous Elder Scrolls game.

If I hear the word Sorcerer, without knowing the Elder Scrolls, I'm thinking of a staff wielding mage in light armor. And that's what it should be and that's what this class looked like, until all the Stamina folks began to transform this class into a warrior. As if Sorcerer wouldn't be lackluster enough already, he suffers from enough issues in PvE and actually in PvP either, if we just ignore hardened Ward. Because this class IS lackluster, but Hardened Ward is a good disguise to hide this fact.

Have to say I agree 100% I think the same when I hear Sorcerer I think magic not stamina,but hay people play whatever.

Dracane · August 2015

WarlordGrievous wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Agreed. Sorcerer is a mage, no Warrior. Sad to see how our own kind totally conquers this class and turns it into a fancy warrior. I can only repeat myself: I'm glad Zenimax found intelligent ways to not destroy Magicka Sorcerers. So far.... who knows where this is leading.

Apparently you are not too familiar with Elder Scrolls lore, which features multiple archetypes combining spells and weapon combat, such as a spellsword or a battlemage.

I'm more than familiar with the lore, we can have a lore fight if you dare to challenge me.
Not sure if I consider classes part of the lore. Not sure if I heared of a Dragonknight in previous Elder Scrolls game.

If I hear the word Sorcerer, without knowing the Elder Scrolls, I'm thinking of a staff wielding mage in light armor. And that's what it should be and that's what this class looked like, until all the Stamina folks began to transform this class into a warrior. As if Sorcerer wouldn't be lackluster enough already, he suffers from enough issues in PvE and actually in PvP either, if we just ignore hardened Ward. Because this class IS lackluster, but Hardened Ward is a good disguise to hide this fact.

Have to say I agree 100% I think the same when I hear Sorcerer I think magic not stamina,but hay people play whatever.

It's not that I don't want this class to be able to perform as a stamina class. But I think, it should be inferior to other stamina classes. Because it is a SORCERER, a Sorcerer shouldn't be as strong as a Dragonknight or Templar.

All this stamina stuff totally outshines the problems Magicka Sorcerers have, especially in PvE. Magicka Sorcerer has priority, because that's the selling point of this class. After that, we can talk about stamina.

kkampaseb17_ESO · August 2015

@Dracane You pretty much forgot to put "IMO" to pretty much every single sentence you typed. Cause as you type atm you don't want me to tell you how it sounds or how you look.

Jar_Ek · August 2015

@Dracane by your logic, NB and DKs should be bad at magicka abilities and have mostly stamina morphs because when you hear the term Night blade you think of melee weapons and Dragonknight you think of heavy armour melee knights. Now I would be one of the first to agree magicka sorcerers have issues and would be basically useless without Hardened ward and overload and maybe crystal shards. But let's not blame stamina sorcerers. zos came up with a class system and decided that any weapons should usable by any class - stamina sorcerers are just trying to turn that promise into reality.

Dracane · August 2015

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Dracane by your logic, NB and DKs should be bad at magicka abilities and have mostly stamina morphs because when you hear the term Night blade you think of melee weapons and Dragonknight you think of heavy armour melee knights. Now I would be one of the first to agree magicka sorcerers have issues and would be basically useless without Hardened ward and overload and maybe crystal shards. But let's not blame stamina sorcerers. zos came up with a class system and decided that any weapons should usable by any class - stamina sorcerers are just trying to turn that promise into reality.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, that Sorcerer should be the best mage, Nightblade the best stealth class, Templar the best Healer and Dragonknights the best tanks. And still, they should be able to perform other roles.
And if you're honest with yourself, that's what Zenimax tried to achieve with these classes. Obviously

Mawgusta · August 2015

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Agreed. Sorcerer is a mage, no Warrior. Sad to see how our own kind totally conquers this class and turns it into a fancy warrior. I can only repeat myself: I'm glad Zenimax found intelligent ways to not destroy Magicka Sorcerers. So far.... who knows where this is leading.

Apparently you are not too familiar with Elder Scrolls lore, which features multiple archetypes combining spells and weapon combat, such as a spellsword or a battlemage.

I think all skills should morph into either a magicka or a stamina ability. I would love to have dagger abilities that morph into magicka and I would love to have resto abilities that morph into a stamina. It's easy to say, yeah, I want to dual weild some magicka sh...stuff.. It gets hard at resto stamina.. but everything is skewed. Magicka lives forever and does okay dps, stamina does big damage and has no survival.. Which is lame to both, then you get hominization when you try to bring balance in that.. so lame to be a dev in that situation.

kkampaseb17_ESO · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Dracane by your logic, NB and DKs should be bad at magicka abilities and have mostly stamina morphs because when you hear the term Night blade you think of melee weapons and Dragonknight you think of heavy armour melee knights. Now I would be one of the first to agree magicka sorcerers have issues and would be basically useless without Hardened ward and overload and maybe crystal shards. But let's not blame stamina sorcerers. zos came up with a class system and decided that any weapons should usable by any class - stamina sorcerers are just trying to turn that promise into reality.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, that Sorcerer should be the best mage, Nightblade the best stealth class, Templar the best Healer and Dragonknights the best tanks. And still, they should be able to perform other roles.
And if you're honest with yourself, that's what Zenimax tried to achieve with these classes. Obviously

And which is the best class for a true DPS fighter...which means not stealth....no divine *** etc? Which is the best class for a true hybrid? Your argument holds no water.

Dracane · August 2015

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Dracane by your logic, NB and DKs should be bad at magicka abilities and have mostly stamina morphs because when you hear the term Night blade you think of melee weapons and Dragonknight you think of heavy armour melee knights. Now I would be one of the first to agree magicka sorcerers have issues and would be basically useless without Hardened ward and overload and maybe crystal shards. But let's not blame stamina sorcerers. zos came up with a class system and decided that any weapons should usable by any class - stamina sorcerers are just trying to turn that promise into reality.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, that Sorcerer should be the best mage, Nightblade the best stealth class, Templar the best Healer and Dragonknights the best tanks. And still, they should be able to perform other roles.
And if you're honest with yourself, that's what Zenimax tried to achieve with these classes. Obviously

And which is the best class for a true DPS fighter...which means not stealth....no divine *** etc? Which is the best class for a true hybrid? Your argument holds no water.

Who says there is one best class for this ? There is no best class for this and I never claimed this. So yes, my argument holds water and even a river.

eliisra · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Dracane by your logic, NB and DKs should be bad at magicka abilities and have mostly stamina morphs because when you hear the term Night blade you think of melee weapons and Dragonknight you think of heavy armour melee knights. Now I would be one of the first to agree magicka sorcerers have issues and would be basically useless without Hardened ward and overload and maybe crystal shards. But let's not blame stamina sorcerers. zos came up with a class system and decided that any weapons should usable by any class - stamina sorcerers are just trying to turn that promise into reality.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, that Sorcerer should be the best mage, Nightblade the best stealth class, Templar the best Healer and Dragonknights the best tanks. And still, they should be able to perform other roles.
And if you're honest with yourself, that's what Zenimax tried to achieve with these classes. Obviously

I think that's a horrible idea. Every class should be able to do every role with equal effectiveness. But we perform that role or archetype in very different ways and with a different level of difficulty. That's what should define classes, not being hands down "best". That's my vision of the game and I hope It's shared by ZoS.

Otherwise there wont be any disparity in this game at all. All tanks will be DK's, casters will all roll sorc and templars will only heal while trying to avoid all NB stamina gankers. It's already been a lot of that going on in 1.6 PvP, way more than during earlier patches where we had much more fun class variety.

Besides there cant be any superior class when it comes to stam/magicka dps. We all know what it leads to. Raids with 10/12 DK's in the past where so good for the game? Or today when I see 75% of the top PvE leader board being filled by templars.

Dracane · August 2015

eliisra wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Dracane by your logic, NB and DKs should be bad at magicka abilities and have mostly stamina morphs because when you hear the term Night blade you think of melee weapons and Dragonknight you think of heavy armour melee knights. Now I would be one of the first to agree magicka sorcerers have issues and would be basically useless without Hardened ward and overload and maybe crystal shards. But let's not blame stamina sorcerers. zos came up with a class system and decided that any weapons should usable by any class - stamina sorcerers are just trying to turn that promise into reality.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, that Sorcerer should be the best mage, Nightblade the best stealth class, Templar the best Healer and Dragonknights the best tanks. And still, they should be able to perform other roles.
And if you're honest with yourself, that's what Zenimax tried to achieve with these classes. Obviously

I think that's a horrible idea. Every class should be able to do every role with equal effectiveness. But we perform that role or archetype in very different ways and with a different level of difficulty. That's what should define classes, not being hands down "best". That's my vision of the game and I hope It's shared by ZoS.

Otherwise there wont be any disparity in this game at all. All tanks will be DK's, casters will all roll sorc and templars will only heal while trying to avoid all NB stamina gankers. It's already been a lot of that going on in 1.6 PvP, way more than during earlier patches where we had much more fun class variety.

Besides there cant be any superior class when it comes to stam/magicka dps. We all know what it leads to. Raids with 10/12 DK's in the past where so good for the game? Or today when I see 75% of the top PvE leader board being filled by templars.

Of course, this would be great. But to make all classes equal in everything, would require soooo many changes. So many, that it's as good as impossible . On the other hand, classes should have weakness and strenghts, something that makes them special.

There will be no equality any time soon. It's easier to build out the strenghts each class has to offer. Which in the case of Sorcerer is the magical performance and it's pretty lackluster, if we take a closer look.

kkampaseb17_ESO · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Dracane by your logic, NB and DKs should be bad at magicka abilities and have mostly stamina morphs because when you hear the term Night blade you think of melee weapons and Dragonknight you think of heavy armour melee knights. Now I would be one of the first to agree magicka sorcerers have issues and would be basically useless without Hardened ward and overload and maybe crystal shards. But let's not blame stamina sorcerers. zos came up with a class system and decided that any weapons should usable by any class - stamina sorcerers are just trying to turn that promise into reality.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, that Sorcerer should be the best mage, Nightblade the best stealth class, Templar the best Healer and Dragonknights the best tanks. And still, they should be able to perform other roles.
And if you're honest with yourself, that's what Zenimax tried to achieve with these classes. Obviously

And which is the best class for a true DPS fighter...which means not stealth....no divine *** etc? Which is the best class for a true hybrid? Your argument holds no water.

Who says there is one best class for this ? There is no best class for this and I never claimed this. So yes, my argument holds water and even a river.

So you are saying....ZOS made a best class for magicka orientation, a best class for stealth rogue style play, a best class for a healer but no best class for a in-your-face fighter? It is that far fetched eh?

ZOS DIDN'T MAKE ANY CLASSES WITH THAT IN MIND. And you can understand this when at some moments magicka NBs were better at magicka compared to magicka Sorcs. When this game was designed ALL class abilities were magicka based. Not a single one was stamina based. So how can you claim one class was supposed to be the better mage? Stamina oriented builds were an afterthought at the start of the game. ZOS thought that by adding weapon lines with stamina would solve the problem. It didn't. And it showed. That is why you see all the new stamina morphs which started after 1.1 patch.

The moment you put that in your head you will start to contribute better in these conversations. Sorcerer doesn't mean anything. Sorcerer is a swordmage as well. Sorcerer is a spellsword as well.

Dracane · August 2015

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Dracane by your logic, NB and DKs should be bad at magicka abilities and have mostly stamina morphs because when you hear the term Night blade you think of melee weapons and Dragonknight you think of heavy armour melee knights. Now I would be one of the first to agree magicka sorcerers have issues and would be basically useless without Hardened ward and overload and maybe crystal shards. But let's not blame stamina sorcerers. zos came up with a class system and decided that any weapons should usable by any class - stamina sorcerers are just trying to turn that promise into reality.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, that Sorcerer should be the best mage, Nightblade the best stealth class, Templar the best Healer and Dragonknights the best tanks. And still, they should be able to perform other roles.
And if you're honest with yourself, that's what Zenimax tried to achieve with these classes. Obviously

And which is the best class for a true DPS fighter...which means not stealth....no divine *** etc? Which is the best class for a true hybrid? Your argument holds no water.

Who says there is one best class for this ? There is no best class for this and I never claimed this. So yes, my argument holds water and even a river.

So you are saying....ZOS made a best class for magicka orientation, a best class for stealth rogue style play, a best class for a healer but no best class for a in-your-face fighter? It is that far fetched eh?

ZOS DIDN'T MAKE ANY CLASSES WITH THAT IN MIND. And you can understand this when at some moments magicka NBs were better at magicka compared to magicka Sorcs. When this game was designed ALL class abilities were magicka based. Not a single one was stamina based. So how can you claim one class was supposed to be the better mage? Stamina oriented builds were an afterthought at the start of the game. ZOS thought that by adding weapon lines with stamina would solve the problem. It didn't. And it showed. That is why you see all the new stamina morphs which started after 1.1 patch.

The moment you put that in your head you will start to contribute better in these conversations. Sorcerer doesn't mean anything. Sorcerer is a swordmage as well. Sorcerer is a spellsword as well.

Aha. Don't know what you want to tell me and why you think, a Sorcerer is a sword mage or whatever. A Battlemage might be a swordmage.

They made changes to classes, because this was needed for diversity and because there was no real point in playing a stamina build. Sometimes, decisions have to be reconsidered. I am aware of this and don't need you to remind me.
Templar still IS the best healer, Dragonknight still IS the best tank and Nightblade IS the best stealth class. You want to deny this ?

kkampaseb17_ESO · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Dracane by your logic, NB and DKs should be bad at magicka abilities and have mostly stamina morphs because when you hear the term Night blade you think of melee weapons and Dragonknight you think of heavy armour melee knights. Now I would be one of the first to agree magicka sorcerers have issues and would be basically useless without Hardened ward and overload and maybe crystal shards. But let's not blame stamina sorcerers. zos came up with a class system and decided that any weapons should usable by any class - stamina sorcerers are just trying to turn that promise into reality.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, that Sorcerer should be the best mage, Nightblade the best stealth class, Templar the best Healer and Dragonknights the best tanks. And still, they should be able to perform other roles.
And if you're honest with yourself, that's what Zenimax tried to achieve with these classes. Obviously

And which is the best class for a true DPS fighter...which means not stealth....no divine *** etc? Which is the best class for a true hybrid? Your argument holds no water.

Who says there is one best class for this ? There is no best class for this and I never claimed this. So yes, my argument holds water and even a river.

So you are saying....ZOS made a best class for magicka orientation, a best class for stealth rogue style play, a best class for a healer but no best class for a in-your-face fighter? It is that far fetched eh?

ZOS DIDN'T MAKE ANY CLASSES WITH THAT IN MIND. And you can understand this when at some moments magicka NBs were better at magicka compared to magicka Sorcs. When this game was designed ALL class abilities were magicka based. Not a single one was stamina based. So how can you claim one class was supposed to be the better mage? Stamina oriented builds were an afterthought at the start of the game. ZOS thought that by adding weapon lines with stamina would solve the problem. It didn't. And it showed. That is why you see all the new stamina morphs which started after 1.1 patch.

The moment you put that in your head you will start to contribute better in these conversations. Sorcerer doesn't mean anything. Sorcerer is a swordmage as well. Sorcerer is a spellsword as well.

Aha. Don't know what you want to tell me and why you think, a Sorcerer is a sword mage or whatever. A Battlemage might be a swordmage.

They made changes to classes, because this was needed for diversity and because there was no real point in playing a stamina build. Sometimes, decisions have to be reconsidered. I am aware of this and don't need you to remind me.
Templar still IS the best healer, Dragonknight still IS the best tank and Nightblade IS the best stealth class. You want to deny this ?

No I do not deny it. However, you can play NB without being based on stealth if you make a tank. You can play DK as a mage pretty competitively. You can play your NB as a mage competitively. So what is your point in the end. I don't see why you shouldn't be able to play a sorcerer as stamina pretty competitively because some people have linked the name to a bathrobe wimp with a broomstick although the Elder Scrolls lore is so much more forgiving.

CP5 · August 2015

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Dracane by your logic, NB and DKs should be bad at magicka abilities and have mostly stamina morphs because when you hear the term Night blade you think of melee weapons and Dragonknight you think of heavy armour melee knights. Now I would be one of the first to agree magicka sorcerers have issues and would be basically useless without Hardened ward and overload and maybe crystal shards. But let's not blame stamina sorcerers. zos came up with a class system and decided that any weapons should usable by any class - stamina sorcerers are just trying to turn that promise into reality.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, that Sorcerer should be the best mage, Nightblade the best stealth class, Templar the best Healer and Dragonknights the best tanks. And still, they should be able to perform other roles.
And if you're honest with yourself, that's what Zenimax tried to achieve with these classes. Obviously

And which is the best class for a true DPS fighter...which means not stealth....no divine *** etc? Which is the best class for a true hybrid? Your argument holds no water.

Who says there is one best class for this ? There is no best class for this and I never claimed this. So yes, my argument holds water and even a river.

So you are saying....ZOS made a best class for magicka orientation, a best class for stealth rogue style play, a best class for a healer but no best class for a in-your-face fighter? It is that far fetched eh?

ZOS DIDN'T MAKE ANY CLASSES WITH THAT IN MIND. And you can understand this when at some moments magicka NBs were better at magicka compared to magicka Sorcs. When this game was designed ALL class abilities were magicka based. Not a single one was stamina based. So how can you claim one class was supposed to be the better mage? Stamina oriented builds were an afterthought at the start of the game. ZOS thought that by adding weapon lines with stamina would solve the problem. It didn't. And it showed. That is why you see all the new stamina morphs which started after 1.1 patch.

The moment you put that in your head you will start to contribute better in these conversations. Sorcerer doesn't mean anything. Sorcerer is a swordmage as well. Sorcerer is a spellsword as well.

Aha. Don't know what you want to tell me and why you think, a Sorcerer is a sword mage or whatever. A Battlemage might be a swordmage.

They made changes to classes, because this was needed for diversity and because there was no real point in playing a stamina build. Sometimes, decisions have to be reconsidered. I am aware of this and don't need you to remind me.
Templar still IS the best healer, Dragonknight still IS the best tank and Nightblade IS the best stealth class. You want to deny this ?

No I do not deny it. However, you can play NB without being based on stealth if you make a tank. You can play DK as a mage pretty competitively. You can play your NB as a mage competitively. So what is your point in the end. I don't see why you shouldn't be able to play a sorcerer as stamina pretty competitively because some people have linked the name to a bathrobe wimp with a broomstick although the Elder Scrolls lore is so much more forgiving.

For the record, Elder Scrolls lore has sorcerer's being skilled in weapons and primarily using heavy armor with little magicka regen (or even none). They were as much mages as nightblades but did so by being magicka sponges. Just food for thought for those who think sorc = mage.