I'm not a fan of either, I'm the type of person that became a ww because the bonuses from it complimented my build and it was free, meaning didn't have to spend a single skill point or maybe 2 so I can share the ww love...

The point, since every other topic about nerf this or nerf that is about keeping things on an even keel otherwise why bring up issues with heavy armor, armor pen, nirn, shield stacking etc is because people have a favorite class but let's be real, gamers don't like losing and when pvp is in the mix close to equal or "counter chains" meaning class a beats b but loses to c and d, b beats c but loses to d and a (etc)...

The reason the comparison is being made to vamps is it is the only comparable skill line to ww...

I agree the "free" needed to be fixed but what this change is going to do is FORCE people to use ww on both bars to get their already minute bonus whereas its counterpart can use any vamp ability/ult on the bars to get their bonuses...

Considering the bonus is ONLY 15% combat Stam regen why put wolves through this? Point in case, I've already dropped the 2 skill points I had in ww so when I cure I don't lose any... I would love to see the metric data of how many chars are ww, vamp, or human before and after these changes... The drops will validate the "death" of ww statement

I for one am glad to see these changes. WW can say all they want, but they know deep down they were doing fine if not above average when it comes to the majority of the population.. I ran a WW on my Templar. I have to say they were very "Build friendly" I guess is the polite word to use here!

It will be nice to walk around the map now and not here everyone howling.. I mean the Fad and popularity will go down and the novelty of being one will come at a cost now...... "As it should"

You say Vamps can nullify the extra fire damage? Not without taking away from other areas of the build. I mean you are saying vamps are walking in sunshine here and indeed they are not. My Sorc vamp is not walking on sunshine over here! So please stop acting like they are.


WW's are now dealing with the downsides that they never had before now.. Vamps learned to adapt to them and move on.. Guess WW's will or they will just not be as popular.

If you're not transforming into WW you shouldn't get the abilities. Sorry. My WW went vamp problem solved. That being said I think you shouldn't have to slot the ultimate on both bars only one.

And if people could comprehend or actually READ,

I don't think anyone in their right mind will or has argued that the always on free stamina regen was not broken and used by 99% of the population the POINT is that this change for both bars is hitting the WW unnecessarily hard given how the skills and ultimate work together hence why I said "has to be slotted on one bar to get the regen"

For those that truly use WW, do you have it on both bars or one? And maybe if I say THE POINT enough times people will comprehend the amount of negative changes the ww are getting, a stamina or hybrid build should not have to have the ww ultimate on both bars to have the benefits active, if you fear the never shifting crowd wasting an ult slot on one of their bars then add in another req of having x amount of skill points spent... With this the people that ACTUALLY use ww won't be forced to have it on both bars, if they want to it is their CHOICE...

I can with a high level of certainty say the people that are arguing that this is a warranted and necessary change as it is proposed now are vampires or people who were ww but only took it for the Stam bonus because the vamp debuffs were just a little to much vs free stamina regen and are switching anyways so all fair in love and war right? Make every other spec/build but my own weaker because I want to win PvP...

Can't believe I'm involved so much in this topic because I will be dropping ww for vamp so I don't even care about ww but I was one of those "abusers" that is leading to this change so I'd at least like to put a little effort into not pigeon holing or killing WWs viability for all but the dedicated few...

So the proposal that has been put forward here is instead of tying the regen bonus to having the ultimate slotted, add in an always-on poison debuff and keep the stamina regen on always.

Who does that benefit?

Take a WW player who actually uses the transform. He's going to have the ultimate slotted on at least one bar anyway. Whenever he's using that bar, he gets a bonus to his stamina regen. Say he keeps a different ultimate slotted on the other bar (because odds are he will). Fine, while he's on that bar he's exactly as powerful as a normal human. There's no down side.

Now look at what happens when you give him a poison vulnerability instead of requiring the ultimate to be slotted. Now he's still got the WW ultimate slotted on one bar, exactly the same as before, but even when he's on the other bar he's taking more damage from poison. For vampires having a vulnerability on all the time is OK because you always have access to the vampire skills and passives. For a werewolf, though, you only have access to the werewolf skills and passives when you transform anyway, so it's unfair to always apply the vulnerability even when you can't use the skills.

So what about the WW players who never planned on using the transform anyway, and were only in it for the bonus to stamina regeneration? We can all agree that allowing a bonus to stamina regeneration with literally no down side to balance it out was bad for game balance, so a change is good for the game (even though many of those players who were just taking advantage of this may whine).

With the mechanic where the ultimate must be slotted to gain the stamina regen, nobody (or virtually nobody - some people might set up a resource regeneration skill bar or something, but that's going to be the exception) who is in it solely for the stamina regen is going to bother with that. They'll effectively start playing as normal humans (or maybe get cured and possibly even go vampire). There's absolutely no problem with this, because WW was always supposed to be for people who actually use the transform. For the people who don't want to use the transform, who cares if they effectively stop being WWs? Good riddance.

Now look at how it works when you go with the suggestion to always have a poison vulnerability and always have stamina regeneration. Depending on their build and how concerned they are about poison, some of the faux WWs may get cured, and others will keep WW because the stamina regen is more important to their build than the additional poison vulnerability. These people still won't ever transform, and the cycle of having faux WWs continues (albeit in reduced numbers). This is bad.

The real point that a few people in this thread are continuously missing is that the stamina regen bonus in human form is just supposed to be a little bonus for WWs for when they're not transformed. It's not supposed to be the big benefit to WWs, and it's ridiculous to treat it as such. Nerfing it so that real WWs now only get it on one of their bars instead of both isn't a big deal in the slightest if it comes with improvements to the WW form itself. It's a far, far better way to do it than to always have the poison vulnerability active.

im sure its been said over and over but omg you actully have to use ww to get any benifits omg shocker.....


and tl;dr cause yolo

I don't care about the passive stam regen being taken away, I do care that WWs suck. I just want to play a viable character who is also a WW. I have been one almost since the beginning.

imredneckson wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

imredneckson wrote: »

-Has to lvl skills in WW form

That's not true. You can slot an entire skill bar full of your WW skills in human form if you want. You can't use them, but you can slot the skills on your bar so that you level them as you earn XP.

Sorry about that I ment the skill line like vamps can be lvled from 1 to 10 like normal players gain lvls but to my knowledge WWs need to be in WW form to lvl their line from 1 to 10

You can do that in under an hour. Seriously, you only need about 225 kills in werewolf form to get to WW10. The hardest part is getting access to devour. You need to get 5 kills, then you can take devour and the remaining 220 can be done on a single transform. It takes, about thirty minutes.

mips_winnt wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Werewolves are supposed to be cursed... but for ESO, there isn't any downside right now.

Well other than the irresistible urge to chew on shoes and pee on the furniture...

That's not a downside. Next you'll be saying flying into a homicidal rage at the slightest provocation and chewing your enemies faces off is a bad thing.

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

WWs are being beaten down to its worst. The current 'boosts' such as extra 'armour' provided from transforming into a WW is basically nothing, the extra stamina is barely considered extra as the cost for using WW abilities is ridiculously expensive. The delay from feeding renders us WWs to be extremely vulnerable and last but not the very least, WWs can't synergise any weapon/class abilities like how Vamps can. You know this to be true.

I urge ZOS to tweak the changes to what I've put out on the table here. Players will not be interested completely in becoming a WW as the ulti cost to transform into one is excruciatingly high and the work done to maintain oneself in WW form is too much. However, discussing about beast form is another different matter so I'll just leave this here for now. I do appreciate your views and concerns regarding the proposed change to WWs so please lay them down here as it only gives us all better insight on how to tackle this problem.

The boost of extra armour/spellresist represents almost 15% mitigation, I wouldn't call that "basically nothing". You say 20% stamina is useless because Werewolves have high stamina cost abilities? That extra 20% stamina can be used for any basic actions (like dodge, block, breakfree) and most of the abilities don't need to be spammed. Claws of Life is a Brawler skill version on steroid, you don't even need to spam it and the cost is relatively low. Ferocious Roar is CC, again, not something you ever need to chain and the 1sec cast time makes it perfect to use in conjucture with Howl of Agony because players can't breakfree before you hit them with that high dmg burst. What is left is a leap, which again shouldn't be spammed in combat and a heal which cost magicka.

You could spam Howl of Agony to have considerable DpS, but that would result in your character beeing quickly out of stamina or you could spam light attacks, and do almost as much damage at the cost of 0 stamina (unless ennemies are immune to bleeds, in which case you should probably use another ult anyways).

The only issue I could agree with you is the feeding time, but, if you remain under attack and leap from time to time, that timer of yours shouldn't be to much of an issue. So you shouldn't be concerned about the timer while you are fighting and should be feeding only when you are out of combat.

You ask for changes, but none of those are in regards of the WW transformation but rather your stamina bonus in humanoid form.

In my oppinion this thread is just another "I don't want to loose my 15% stamina" in disguise.

NBrookus wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Werewolves are supposed to be cursed... but for ESO, there isn't any downside right now.

No downside? That's not really true.

You have to have WW abilities slotted into your hot bar to use them when you are transformed, and *can't* use them when you are not -- which you can't do for very often or for very long. Plus it uses up your Ultimate slot.

Losing access to class abilities is a pretty tough trade-off during play, because you can't stay in WW form for very long or do it very often. Ever players who want to play WW can't.

I agree with the OP that if the stam regen buff is on all the time, so should the poison damage debuff.

Yeah... I never said any of those things. You want to clean up your quote tags, maybe?

EDIT: Also, it doesn't help that you're categorically wrong.

I mean, you get some details right, like how you can slot werewolf abilities while in human form. Though, you certainly don't have to. Because your werewolf transform is a different skill bar, which I'd think you'd know if you'd ever run one. Sort of like how your second weapon and Overload produce new skill bars...

I think this post is more worried about WWs (which obviously needed some type of change) rather than being worried about the biggest problem in the game after the new patch (tanks without stam regen). There is simply 0 reason to ever be a WW as a tank any longer, Vampire? that's a must for a tank now! the damage reduction from mistform for Magicka-based tanks will become a staple for tanking trials and hard mode, and especially vDSA. ZOS is making it necessary to be a vampire in order to tank effectively, while making WWs a distaste for tankers.

The work around to this seems easy, slot your WW Ultimate on your DPS bar, put the Ultimate you'll actually use on your buff bar and switch to your buff bar use your Ult and switch back.