The Death of WWs

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

cerrudo33 wrote: »

I'm already a soon to be ex werewolf sorc but every response in here either can not comprehend what they just read or prefer to troll and de rail topics...

The point (in my understanding) the OP was making is that werewolves had a bonus when not shifted but for their active skills they have to be in we form to use the skills and can not use ANY other abilities when shifted VS the vampires who have always active debuffs but the ability to mix and match class and vampire skill lines

The new style now being, no true passive bonus and werewolf ultimate (potentially) slotted on both bars (no class ults), still maintaining comparable negative resistances, and still no ability to mix class abilities while shifted aka a super nerf to ww'a in general.

The vampire by comparison saw buffs across a few of their active skills, still nix and match class abilities with vampire and almost 50% reduction in Fire dmg taken (trivializing they only real downside to vampire).

The point being when putting the 2 curse classes side by side, they have drastic differences in trade offs for power, and in my opinion, making ww virtually useless to take unless you only want to shift, and vampire a major all around buff when before you probably saw a 45-45-10 split between cursed and human. I would venture a guess that vamp will now be 60-70% human 20-30% and ww less than 10%...

So how are these changes fair? I can say the always on passive regen needed to get changed in one way shape or form but this was not it... Hell, to avoid the people like me that took ww because why not? Make it required to spend x amount of skills into ww to activate the passive so you make it have a cost unlinke the 0-2 skill point spenders for the passive regen...

Because this became much longer then I anticipated, tldr: bring opportunity costs, skill power, and passives in line with each other so that people choose to be one of three (ww, vamp, or human) with similar numbers, but hey that's just me

@cerrudo Very much appreciated fellow WW. That's what I've been trying to point out which most people here misunderstood or didn't read.

Alucardo · August 2015

Mdl518 wrote: »

Sounds like something that should of been done along time ago....I won't act like a vet in this game because I am not but all I ever see are people complaining on these forums about this strength and that weakness....IMO every class should have their OWN weaknesses that make them unique as that class. Same goes for vampire and werewolf. 15% Stan Regen at all times? Seems a little funny considering werewolves have been historically known to have no control over when they change or what they do when they change, so an insane stat like that and no major drawbacks?....idk this just all seems funny to me

The drawback is you have to slot the werewolf transformation in both your ultimates if you want the stam bonus, which I'm totally fine with. What I'm not fine with is devouring time, how long it takes to charge a transformation, and how short of a time you receive for all that trouble. I'm wasting two ultimates for something I barely use any more. I rolled a vampire, and now I'm enjoying 10% magicka AND stam recovery without wasting ultimates. In fact, I can use the powerful devouring swam, thanks again to the Vampire skill tree. What's this? Undeath? Damage mitigation up to 33% when I'm under 50% health?? Holy crap, I'll take that too. Mist form.. take 75% less damage from all sources for 3 seconds? Uhm yes please! Oh, and what's this, it won't cost me an ultimate and I can keep all these great spells/passives forever? Sold!
I would not be so sour if I could enjoy more time in my chosen form (Werewolf), but it just takes too long to charge and doesn't last long enough. Before anyone jumps on me and says "HURR BUT U CAN HAZ DEVOUR". Have you tried devouring a fast spawning player or one amongst a group of people? Of course you haven't - you're a vampire because werewolf is currently worthless.

starkerealm · August 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

imredneckson wrote: »

-Has to lvl skills in WW form

That's not true. You can slot an entire skill bar full of your WW skills in human form if you want. You can't use them, but you can slot the skills on your bar so that you level them as you earn XP.

Honestly, that's how I got most of my werewolf morphs, and how I maxed out pounce the first time.

So what's the point here? That is such a waste of slot isn't it? Why wold you want to slot in an un-useable skill when you could've slotted something else useful in it? The very and sole purpose to what you did is to just level it am I right? I've tried putting that out to you but I hope you reread my post again. And please, we do hit like trucks but we die far too easily. That's the concern right there.

Because it's a temporary thing. You're leveling up the skill so you can use it as a wolf, not because it's part of your build. And, trust me, some of those morphs are very useful, so it's worth putting up with a little pain, for a little while, to be a better wolf.

Tholian1 · August 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

imredneckson wrote: »

-Has to lvl skills in WW form

That's not true. You can slot an entire skill bar full of your WW skills in human form if you want. You can't use them, but you can slot the skills on your bar so that you level them as you earn XP.

Honestly, that's how I got most of my werewolf morphs, and how I maxed out pounce the first time.

So what's the point here? That is such a waste of slot isn't it? Why wold you want to slot in an un-useable skill when you could've slotted something else useful in it? The very and sole purpose to what you did is to just level it am I right? I've tried putting that out to you but I hope you reread my post again. And please, we do hit like trucks but we die far too easily. That's the concern right there.

The point for me was that I had most of my WW abilities fully leveled in about a week without trying. Having them fill up my bars temporarily was a minor inconvenience.

LaughingJack · August 2015

so, don't be a warewolf . . . simples!

UrQuan · August 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

imredneckson wrote: »

-Has to lvl skills in WW form

That's not true. You can slot an entire skill bar full of your WW skills in human form if you want. You can't use them, but you can slot the skills on your bar so that you level them as you earn XP.

Honestly, that's how I got most of my werewolf morphs, and how I maxed out pounce the first time.

So what's the point here? That is such a waste of slot isn't it? Why wold you want to slot in an un-useable skill when you could've slotted something else useful in it? The very and sole purpose to what you did is to just level it am I right? I've tried putting that out to you but I hope you reread my post again. And please, we do hit like trucks but we die far too easily. That's the concern right there.

Do you really only ever slot skills you're actually using at the time? You don't ever think ahead to what skills and skill combos you may want to use in the future, and slot one or two of them at a time to train them up until you're ready to swap to that build? Heck, I use an add-on to swap my entire bar to different skills (my "training" bar) before I hand in a quest just to level up those particular skills.

Alucardo · August 2015

LaughingJack wrote: »

so, don't be a warewolf . . . simples!

We raise these type of threads because we want to be a werewolf. You wouldn't hear from us if we didn't care

usrevenge · August 2015

all they had to do was give non-wolf form WW's partial poison damage debuff and it would have been fair imo.

WW is now officially *** for any magic build character.

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

Mdl518 wrote: »

Sounds like something that should of been done along time ago....I won't act like a vet in this game because I am not but all I ever see are people complaining on these forums about this strength and that weakness....IMO every class should have their OWN weaknesses that make them unique as that class. Same goes for vampire and werewolf. 15% Stan Regen at all times? Seems a little funny considering werewolves have been historically known to have no control over when they change or what they do when they change, so an insane stat like that and no major drawbacks?....idk this just all seems funny to me

You obviously missed my point. I agreed on having to put a penalty of 25% extra poison damage onto WWs while in human form. Please reread my post again. You'll finally understand what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to find compromise between WWs and Vamps. And it's not about transforming into one. That is another topic. What I'm talking about is the removal of stam regen for WWs in human form. I beg of you not to not divert your attention away from the matter at hand.

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

imredneckson wrote: »

-Has to lvl skills in WW form

That's not true. You can slot an entire skill bar full of your WW skills in human form if you want. You can't use them, but you can slot the skills on your bar so that you level them as you earn XP.

Honestly, that's how I got most of my werewolf morphs, and how I maxed out pounce the first time.

So what's the point here? That is such a waste of slot isn't it? Why wold you want to slot in an un-useable skill when you could've slotted something else useful in it? The very and sole purpose to what you did is to just level it am I right? I've tried putting that out to you but I hope you reread my post again. And please, we do hit like trucks but we die far too easily. That's the concern right there.

Do you really only ever slot skills you're actually using at the time? You don't ever think ahead to what skills and skill combos you may want to use in the future, and slot one or two of them at a time to train them up until you're ready to swap to that build? Heck, I use an add-on to swap my entire bar to different skills (my "training" bar) before I hand in a quest just to level up those particular skills.

I have done what you've mentioned. I'm sorry I didn't make clear of the context. For that, I apologise. I'm talking in terms of PVP. Being a WW is extremely lackluster in PVP. Survival of a WW is next to nothing and that is just frustrating. You might know of the saying that WWs are 'free kills' which is sadly true for the most part.

Tholian1 · August 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

imredneckson wrote: »

-Has to lvl skills in WW form

That's not true. You can slot an entire skill bar full of your WW skills in human form if you want. You can't use them, but you can slot the skills on your bar so that you level them as you earn XP.

Honestly, that's how I got most of my werewolf morphs, and how I maxed out pounce the first time.

So what's the point here? That is such a waste of slot isn't it? Why wold you want to slot in an un-useable skill when you could've slotted something else useful in it? The very and sole purpose to what you did is to just level it am I right? I've tried putting that out to you but I hope you reread my post again. And please, we do hit like trucks but we die far too easily. That's the concern right there.

Do you really only ever slot skills you're actually using at the time? You don't ever think ahead to what skills and skill combos you may want to use in the future, and slot one or two of them at a time to train them up until you're ready to swap to that build? Heck, I use an add-on to swap my entire bar to different skills (my "training" bar) before I hand in a quest just to level up those particular skills.

I have done what you've mentioned. I'm sorry I didn't make clear of the context. For that, I apologise. I'm talking in terms of PVP. Being a WW is extremely lackluster in PVP. Survival of a WW is next to nothing and that is just frustrating. You might know of the saying that WWs are 'free kills' which is sadly true for the most part.

Maybe change the title to reflect that. IMO, WW is still going to be fine for PvE. Since this is about PvP, I will see myself out now.

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

usrevenge wrote: »

all they had to do was give non-wolf form WW's partial poison damage debuff and it would have been fair imo.

WW is now officially *** for any magic build character.

I concur wholeheartedly. It's not that complicated really. Even the current WW builds are really static as they have only limited WW skills and no ultimate. It seems that ZOS needs to revamp WW to even get it sub-par to vamps. It's a total wreck as of now.

starkerealm · August 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

imredneckson wrote: »

-Has to lvl skills in WW form

That's not true. You can slot an entire skill bar full of your WW skills in human form if you want. You can't use them, but you can slot the skills on your bar so that you level them as you earn XP.

Honestly, that's how I got most of my werewolf morphs, and how I maxed out pounce the first time.

So what's the point here? That is such a waste of slot isn't it? Why wold you want to slot in an un-useable skill when you could've slotted something else useful in it? The very and sole purpose to what you did is to just level it am I right? I've tried putting that out to you but I hope you reread my post again. And please, we do hit like trucks but we die far too easily. That's the concern right there.

Do you really only ever slot skills you're actually using at the time? You don't ever think ahead to what skills and skill combos you may want to use in the future, and slot one or two of them at a time to train them up until you're ready to swap to that build? Heck, I use an add-on to swap my entire bar to different skills (my "training" bar) before I hand in a quest just to level up those particular skills.

I have done what you've mentioned. I'm sorry I didn't make clear of the context. For that, I apologise. I'm talking in terms of PVP. Being a WW is extremely lackluster in PVP. Survival of a WW is next to nothing and that is just frustrating. You might know of the saying that WWs are 'free kills' which is sadly true for the most part.

In PvP lone players are usually free kills. This is no more or less true of wolves. Where wolves go off the rails in PvP is in packs. Because all of those buffs can get refreshed, wolves can keep some stupid buffs going in ways that normal players can't.

Players who don't understand the class they're playing (and in this case, let's call werewolf it's own class) are also free kills. Learn to really work the transform, and you'll actually murder people in Cyrodiil with it.

UrQuan · August 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

imredneckson wrote: »

-Has to lvl skills in WW form

That's not true. You can slot an entire skill bar full of your WW skills in human form if you want. You can't use them, but you can slot the skills on your bar so that you level them as you earn XP.

Honestly, that's how I got most of my werewolf morphs, and how I maxed out pounce the first time.

So what's the point here? That is such a waste of slot isn't it? Why wold you want to slot in an un-useable skill when you could've slotted something else useful in it? The very and sole purpose to what you did is to just level it am I right? I've tried putting that out to you but I hope you reread my post again. And please, we do hit like trucks but we die far too easily. That's the concern right there.

Do you really only ever slot skills you're actually using at the time? You don't ever think ahead to what skills and skill combos you may want to use in the future, and slot one or two of them at a time to train them up until you're ready to swap to that build? Heck, I use an add-on to swap my entire bar to different skills (my "training" bar) before I hand in a quest just to level up those particular skills.

I have done what you've mentioned. I'm sorry I didn't make clear of the context. For that, I apologise. I'm talking in terms of PVP. Being a WW is extremely lackluster in PVP. Survival of a WW is next to nothing and that is just frustrating. You might know of the saying that WWs are 'free kills' which is sadly true for the most part.

Huh? What you quoted was basically this:
Player 1: "you can only level WW skills in WW form"
Player 2: "no, you can level them in human form too - you just need to slot them"
Player 3: "yes, I agree and this is what I have done"
So I don't know why you started talking in terms of PVP when the conversation was about whether you could or couldn't level WW skills in human form... Bit of a non sequitur there.

Alucardo · August 2015

Tholian1 wrote: »

IMO, WW is still going to be fine for PvE. Since this is about PvP, I will see myself out now.

Yeah it's great when you spend that 300 ultimate to change, then all of a sudden you have to watch a "confrontation" between two NPCs half way through a quest while watching the timer count down.

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Players who don't understand the class they're playing (and in this case, let's call werewolf it's own class) are also free kills. Learn to really work the transform, and you'll actually murder people in Cyrodiil with it.

Getting a kill while in WW is no problem for me. I've done it loads of times. I agreed that WWs hit like trucks etc.. All i'm saying is that their sustain is extremely weak and that's why WWs are free kills.

And again, you're getting derailed from the actual matter at hand again. I'm only discussing the stam regen removal and not the transformation. Please don't divert away from what I'm talking about.

Tholian1 · August 2015

CheeseDivinity wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

IMO, WW is still going to be fine for PvE. Since this is about PvP, I will see myself out now.

Yeah it's great when you spend that 300 ultimate to change, then all of a sudden you have to watch a "confrontation" between two NPCs half way through a quest while watching the timer count down.

I never had an issue generating ultimate for my WW.

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

-Double posted-
*See below*

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

imredneckson wrote: »

-Has to lvl skills in WW form

That's not true. You can slot an entire skill bar full of your WW skills in human form if you want. You can't use them, but you can slot the skills on your bar so that you level them as you earn XP.

Honestly, that's how I got most of my werewolf morphs, and how I maxed out pounce the first time.

So what's the point here? That is such a waste of slot isn't it? Why wold you want to slot in an un-useable skill when you could've slotted something else useful in it? The very and sole purpose to what you did is to just level it am I right? I've tried putting that out to you but I hope you reread my post again. And please, we do hit like trucks but we die far too easily. That's the concern right there.

Do you really only ever slot skills you're actually using at the time? You don't ever think ahead to what skills and skill combos you may want to use in the future, and slot one or two of them at a time to train them up until you're ready to swap to that build? Heck, I use an add-on to swap my entire bar to different skills (my "training" bar) before I hand in a quest just to level up those particular skills.

I have done what you've mentioned. I'm sorry I didn't make clear of the context. For that, I apologise. I'm talking in terms of PVP. Being a WW is extremely lackluster in PVP. Survival of a WW is next to nothing and that is just frustrating. You might know of the saying that WWs are 'free kills' which is sadly true for the most part.

Huh? What you quoted was basically this:
Player 1: "you can only level WW skills in WW form"
Player 2: "no, you can level them in human form too - you just need to slot them"
Player 3: "yes, I agree and this is what I have done"
So I don't know why you started talking in terms of PVP when the conversation was about whether you could or couldn't level WW skills in human form... Bit of a non sequitur there.

@UrQuan Lol. You've misunderstood my point. The point is that WWs' sustain are extremely weak. I even said that. That was the main concern in that context. I was just questioning why you would slot unuseable skills when you can use other skills to help your sustain or DPS but you can't do that while in WW form in PVP.

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

Since there has been massive amounts of confusion, let me summarise my main concerns:

-WWs should still have stam regen in human form but there should also be the 25% extra damage from poison debuff in human form as well. Remove the need of having to slot in WW transformation which is actually an Ultimate (that's a ridiculously enormous tradeoff and that renders WW, human form or not, to be relatively weak compared to Vamps) to get the stam regen bonus and poison damage debuff.
-WWs have very limited skillsets they can utilise which is extremely restrictive plus not even having a WW-only ultimate as compared to Vamps where they could synergise all kinds of different class/weapon/vamp ability skill sets and that makes their sustainability extremely enticing as compared to WWs.
-I'm not saying Vamps are OP and they need to be nerfed at all. I hope that you understand that when I wrote the first post, I was trying to say that being a WW in the upcoming major patch is extremely not worth it as compared to vamps and I counteract this by proposing a compromise of buffs and debuffs for a WW so they could at least be on par with vamps.

I'm only talking about stam regen and poison damage debuff on my first post so please concentrate on that and don't derail off the main topic at hand. WW transformation is on another topic which can be discussed somewhere else.

UrQuan · August 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

imredneckson wrote: »

-Has to lvl skills in WW form

That's not true. You can slot an entire skill bar full of your WW skills in human form if you want. You can't use them, but you can slot the skills on your bar so that you level them as you earn XP.

Honestly, that's how I got most of my werewolf morphs, and how I maxed out pounce the first time.

So what's the point here? That is such a waste of slot isn't it? Why wold you want to slot in an un-useable skill when you could've slotted something else useful in it? The very and sole purpose to what you did is to just level it am I right? I've tried putting that out to you but I hope you reread my post again. And please, we do hit like trucks but we die far too easily. That's the concern right there.

Do you really only ever slot skills you're actually using at the time? You don't ever think ahead to what skills and skill combos you may want to use in the future, and slot one or two of them at a time to train them up until you're ready to swap to that build? Heck, I use an add-on to swap my entire bar to different skills (my "training" bar) before I hand in a quest just to level up those particular skills.

I have done what you've mentioned. I'm sorry I didn't make clear of the context. For that, I apologise. I'm talking in terms of PVP. Being a WW is extremely lackluster in PVP. Survival of a WW is next to nothing and that is just frustrating. You might know of the saying that WWs are 'free kills' which is sadly true for the most part.

Huh? What you quoted was basically this:
Player 1: "you can only level WW skills in WW form"
Player 2: "no, you can level them in human form too - you just need to slot them"
Player 3: "yes, I agree and this is what I have done"
So I don't know why you started talking in terms of PVP when the conversation was about whether you could or couldn't level WW skills in human form... Bit of a non sequitur there.

@UrQuan Lol. You've misunderstood my point. The point is that WWs' sustain are extremely weak. I even said that. That was the main concern in that context. I was just questioning why you would slot unuseable skills when you can use other skills to help your sustain or DPS but you can't do that while in WW form in PVP.

Nooo, I think you're missing the point. Whether WW sustain in PVP is or isn't weak has exactly nothing to do with the conversation you were quoting about whether you can level the skills in non-werewolf form. Suddenly talking about having unusable skills slotted in the context of anything other than "this lets me level this skill" was a total non sequitur. You jumped into a side conversation and tried to make it about something different from what it was talking about...

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

imredneckson wrote: »

-Has to lvl skills in WW form

That's not true. You can slot an entire skill bar full of your WW skills in human form if you want. You can't use them, but you can slot the skills on your bar so that you level them as you earn XP.

Honestly, that's how I got most of my werewolf morphs, and how I maxed out pounce the first time.

So what's the point here? That is such a waste of slot isn't it? Why wold you want to slot in an un-useable skill when you could've slotted something else useful in it? The very and sole purpose to what you did is to just level it am I right? I've tried putting that out to you but I hope you reread my post again. And please, we do hit like trucks but we die far too easily. That's the concern right there.

Do you really only ever slot skills you're actually using at the time? You don't ever think ahead to what skills and skill combos you may want to use in the future, and slot one or two of them at a time to train them up until you're ready to swap to that build? Heck, I use an add-on to swap my entire bar to different skills (my "training" bar) before I hand in a quest just to level up those particular skills.

I have done what you've mentioned. I'm sorry I didn't make clear of the context. For that, I apologise. I'm talking in terms of PVP. Being a WW is extremely lackluster in PVP. Survival of a WW is next to nothing and that is just frustrating. You might know of the saying that WWs are 'free kills' which is sadly true for the most part.

Huh? What you quoted was basically this:
Player 1: "you can only level WW skills in WW form"
Player 2: "no, you can level them in human form too - you just need to slot them"
Player 3: "yes, I agree and this is what I have done"
So I don't know why you started talking in terms of PVP when the conversation was about whether you could or couldn't level WW skills in human form... Bit of a non sequitur there.

@UrQuan Lol. You've misunderstood my point. The point is that WWs' sustain are extremely weak. I even said that. That was the main concern in that context. I was just questioning why you would slot unuseable skills when you can use other skills to help your sustain or DPS but you can't do that while in WW form in PVP.

Nooo, I think you're missing the point. Whether WW sustain in PVP is or isn't weak has exactly nothing to do with the conversation you were quoting about whether you can level the skills in non-werewolf form. Suddenly talking about having unusable skills slotted in the context of anything other than "this lets me level this skill" was a total non sequitur. You jumped into a side conversation and tried to make it about something different from what it was talking about...

I was replying in relation to what @imredneckson said in the first place. I didn't bring up the question. I was simply questioning the 'wisdom' behind doing so in terms of PVP.

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

If you're in a war of attrition as a werewolf, something has gone very, very, wrong.

@starkerealm I'm not fully comprehending on what you're trying to say and you haven't answered my question. Heck, all my concerns on WW have been dismissed and overlooked by most people who replied here.

I think I missed the questions. A lot of your concerns got dismissed because they're not really applicable.

Werewolves excel at driving an enemy to the ground and ripping their guts out before they have a chance to react. They can hit for staggering amounts of damage, and soak off ludicrous amounts of abuse, for their spec.

So, if you're thinking wolves aren't actually viable in either PvP or PvE, you probably need to spend more time working with one and getting a better feel for it. Werewolves have a stupidly versatile skill set (when fully upgraded). They have a knockdown with no cast time, a fear effect that buffs, an AOE with attached DoT, a click heal (which runs off a different resource pool, meaning even if you've tapped out a wolf, they can still recover), and a gap closer. It's a really scary setup.

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

DrunkenGryffinInn wrote: »

If you don't play the WW then get rid of the WW and just add points in champion "mooncalf" to replace the 15% stamina regen. Simple, problem solved.

@DrunkenGryffinInn That is not the same. The stam regen provided can be as an extra on top of Mooncalf bonus.

Realistically, getting +15% from mooncalf isn't worth it. You're talking about a serious investment to get that, and there are much better options in the Thief constellations.

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »

Saying you want to be a WW without having to slot any of the abilities or actually be a WW is like saying you want the sword and shield passives and skills, but you don't want to actually have to use a sword and shield. This change should have happened a long time ago.

Thing is, WWs have to giveaway class Ultimates to gain one stam regen bonus while Vamps can simply slot in useable skills on-the-go. I have a hunch that you didn't read fully my post. If that is so, then please reread what I've listed down. It'll make things easier for you.

You make it sound like Devouring Swarm isn't one of the most hilariously overpowered ultimates in the game.

@starkerealm What do you mean not applicable? I've put out my concerns clearly. I didn't disagree that WWs excel in those departments (mostly DPS) be it in PVP or PVE, all I'm discussing are the stam regen bonus + poison damage debuff, benefits of being a Vamp (which edges out WWs by a mile) compared to WW and sustainability of WWs. That is all. Please don't talk about WW transformation as that is on another topic.

Thymos · August 2015

I prefer the new change over a suggested weakness at all times.

I'm not a vampire QQer, in fact most of my characters took advantage of the free stamina regen bonus from getting lycanthropy. As far as I know, you just need to slot the ultimate for the regen, so you don't really need to be in werewolf form.

UrQuan · August 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

imredneckson wrote: »

-Has to lvl skills in WW form

That's not true. You can slot an entire skill bar full of your WW skills in human form if you want. You can't use them, but you can slot the skills on your bar so that you level them as you earn XP.

Honestly, that's how I got most of my werewolf morphs, and how I maxed out pounce the first time.

So what's the point here? That is such a waste of slot isn't it? Why wold you want to slot in an un-useable skill when you could've slotted something else useful in it? The very and sole purpose to what you did is to just level it am I right? I've tried putting that out to you but I hope you reread my post again. And please, we do hit like trucks but we die far too easily. That's the concern right there.

Do you really only ever slot skills you're actually using at the time? You don't ever think ahead to what skills and skill combos you may want to use in the future, and slot one or two of them at a time to train them up until you're ready to swap to that build? Heck, I use an add-on to swap my entire bar to different skills (my "training" bar) before I hand in a quest just to level up those particular skills.

I have done what you've mentioned. I'm sorry I didn't make clear of the context. For that, I apologise. I'm talking in terms of PVP. Being a WW is extremely lackluster in PVP. Survival of a WW is next to nothing and that is just frustrating. You might know of the saying that WWs are 'free kills' which is sadly true for the most part.

Huh? What you quoted was basically this:
Player 1: "you can only level WW skills in WW form"
Player 2: "no, you can level them in human form too - you just need to slot them"
Player 3: "yes, I agree and this is what I have done"
So I don't know why you started talking in terms of PVP when the conversation was about whether you could or couldn't level WW skills in human form... Bit of a non sequitur there.

@UrQuan Lol. You've misunderstood my point. The point is that WWs' sustain are extremely weak. I even said that. That was the main concern in that context. I was just questioning why you would slot unuseable skills when you can use other skills to help your sustain or DPS but you can't do that while in WW form in PVP.

Nooo, I think you're missing the point. Whether WW sustain in PVP is or isn't weak has exactly nothing to do with the conversation you were quoting about whether you can level the skills in non-werewolf form. Suddenly talking about having unusable skills slotted in the context of anything other than "this lets me level this skill" was a total non sequitur. You jumped into a side conversation and tried to make it about something different from what it was talking about...

I was replying in relation to what @imredneckson said in the first place. I didn't bring up the question. I was simply questioning the 'wisdom' behind doing so in terms of PVP.

Go back and look at the quotes that you replied to (the quotes are right in this post - just expand them). It was specifically a side conversation on one particular point: whether you can level WW skills outside of WW form. Your "why would you do that in PVP" and "but your sustain is worse" were wholly irrelevant to what was being discussed. The conversation wasn't about PVP at all, and it wasn't about WW sustain at all. It was very specifically about how you can level WW skills. You were replying to the wrong person, and you got confused about what we were talking about. That's it. There's no shame in it - you just replied to the wrong posts and confusion was the end result.

CP5 · August 2015

Thymos wrote: »

I prefer the new change over a suggested weakness at all times.

I'm not a vampire QQer, in fact most of my characters took advantage of the free stamina regen bonus from getting lycanthropy. As far as I know, you just need to slot the ultimate for the regen, so you don't really need to be in werewolf form.

Give up both ultimates for +15% stamina regen?

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

Thymos wrote: »

I prefer the new change over a suggested weakness at all times.

I'm not a vampire QQer, in fact most of my characters took advantage of the free stamina regen bonus from getting lycanthropy. As far as I know, you just need to slot the ultimate for the regen, so you don't really need to be in werewolf form.

That's the concern right there. You'll be foregoing your class Ultimates (which is definitely more preferred most of the time) in order to get that one stam regen bonus. Vamps can just slot one of their skill lines to get their passives working and it doesn't have to be an Ultimate. Which is obviously a huge advantage for being a Vamp compared to a WW. For example, say you're a NB or DK, would you pass on Incapacitating Strike/Soul harvest or Dragon leap for a WW ultimate just to gain that extra stam regen? I'm pretty sure the answer is no considering how long it takes to charge up the WW transformation ulti.

cerrudo33 · August 2015

Again the lack of comprehension is palpable here...

The point of this topic has nothing to do with how viable the individual skills are being used but rather how they mesh together, then compared to the camp curse, and partially to non curse or human...

The wolf had an always active Stam bonus but to use its skills it had no choice but to use an ultimate slot, and spend copious amounts of skill points to get it as a viable alt attack As well as NOT being able to use class skills when morphed. Meaning, your a wolf or your not for all your skills (opportunity costs when choosing) BUT you got a Stam regen buff regardless... The Stam buff itself is negligible as can be seen that people STILL choose vampire over ww meaning that even with all the higher end drawbacks on live people still take vamp over a "free" Stam regen

The point of this entire piece is to discuss potential ways to change (or not change) the ww tree so it does not become "useless" to a large part of the population...

Now to actually provide some substance besides trying to bring the discussion back, for the sake of ww, the passive should at most only require the ult slotted on one bar (gets rid of the people like me that take ww solely because well why not?) while not gimping the playstyle as this would also bring it in line with how vamp is going to be used, ult on one bar and an actually usable skill on the other...

That would be an example of not crippling the ww based on OPPORTUNITY costs already present and keep the 2 curses somewhat even

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

cerrudo33 wrote: »

Again the lack of comprehension is palpable here...

The point of this topic has nothing to do with how viable the individual skills are being used but rather how they mesh together, then compared to the camp curse, and partially to non curse or human...

The wolf had an always active Stam bonus but to use its skills it had no choice but to use an ultimate slot, and spend copious amounts of skill points to get it as a viable alt attack As well as NOT being able to use class skills when morphed. Meaning, your a wolf or your not for all your skills (opportunity costs when choosing) BUT you got a Stam regen buff regardless... The Stam buff itself is negligible as can be seen that people STILL choose vampire over ww meaning that even with all the higher end drawbacks on live people still take vamp over a "free" Stam regen

The point of this entire piece is to discuss potential ways to change (or not change) the ww tree so it does not become "useless" to a large part of the population...

Now to actually provide some substance besides trying to bring the discussion back, for the sake of ww, the passive should at most only require the ult slotted on one bar (gets rid of the people like me that take ww solely because well why not?) while not gimping the playstyle as this would also bring it in line with how vamp is going to be used, ult on one bar and an actually usable skill on the other...

That would be an example of not crippling the ww based on OPPORTUNITY costs already present and keep the 2 curses somewhat even

Couldn't have said it any better.

DaveMoeDee · August 2015

Why compare werewolves to vampires? They are different things.

Werewolves typically need to transform. Vampires, typically are always vampires. That is how those myths go, though there was that weird transforming for vamps in Skyrim.

And why would werewolves die if there are no negatives to being one? And if people feel it doesn't help enough to use in combat, how is that a problem? In what universe to werewolves have access to talents of the person from their non-werewolf form? That isn't how werewolves work.

If you are a big werewolf fan maybe you are disappointed that you aren't more powerful as a werewolf. I don't see a problem. Werewolves should only have value in a very limited use since werewolves are just brutes.

If we wanted to better follow werewolf traditions, the non-transformed werewolf could have normal ww vulnerabilities and a minor buff all the time. But a transformed werewolf should not be able to use weapons or class skills. Vampires could, because that is how vampires typically work.