I agree. I'm glad they got rid of stamina regen during blocking.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

hey, check out my signature. tanks where already doing those things. we didn't have to be nerfed to test new things.

It is funny that you compare tanking diversity to dps diversity. Many of my friends in PVE literally use the same item sets for magic dps or stamina dps and, with that respect, tanking has been much more diverse for a long time.

shill post?

(Lol button) < Press

No kidding, how boring to just mash hidden blade or lava whip over and over and over refreshing a few dots every few seconds or re-applying buffs. I really hope they give DPS a solid makeover to make it more interesting. Hopefully they will put some internal cool-downs on those abilities so DPS has a chance to think creatively and really enjoy this great game the same way tanks will now.

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

hey, check out my signature. tanks where already doing those things. we didn't have to be nerfed to test new things.

It is funny that you compare tanking diversity to dps diversity. Many of my friends in PVE literally use the same item sets for magic dps or stamina dps and, with that respect, tanking has been much more diverse for a long time.

shill post?

(Lol button) < Press

Tanks wasn't 'nerfed'. Tanks were changed and you have to actually think while tanking now.

Anyone who says tanking is 'hard' or 'impossible' or 'nerfed' is just a bad tank and maybe they shouldn't tank in the coming patch to let the real tanks shine. Like I said, anyone can cast inner fire and hold block on live just because you cant do that anymore doesn't mean ZoS should dumb the system down again so all the casuals who want to just sit there mindlessly can continue doing that. Instead, keep the system as is and you should learn to play and adapt to that new system, and not expect ZoS to change it and hand everything to you.

If the old Veteran Zones never got nerfed we would probably never even be having this discussion.

Nope I cant do it



Yuuuppp I'm a baaaad kid



Please come back when you can actually discuss tanking rather than repeating the same tired and easily refuted platitudes about "what real tanks do" and how "tanking is super boring zzzzz." Until then I am going to continue to expect zos developers to remove the nerf, yes nerf, so that they remain true to their own development principles.

Shill posting confirmed,

(lol button) < press

You know the stam regen thing is cool as long as magica and health regen take a hit on blocking to.

You know so people can't just run to straight magica builds for everything and all the work to create stamina morphs basically becomes niche play

Personofsecrets wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

hey, check out my signature. tanks where already doing those things. we didn't have to be nerfed to test new things.

It is funny that you compare tanking diversity to dps diversity. Many of my friends in PVE literally use the same item sets for magic dps or stamina dps and, with that respect, tanking has been much more diverse for a long time.

shill post?

(Lol button) < Press

Tanks wasn't 'nerfed'. Tanks were changed and you have to actually think while tanking now.

Anyone who says tanking is 'hard' or 'impossible' or 'nerfed' is just a bad tank and maybe they shouldn't tank in the coming patch to let the real tanks shine. Like I said, anyone can cast inner fire and hold block on live just because you cant do that anymore doesn't mean ZoS should dumb the system down again so all the casuals who want to just sit there mindlessly can continue doing that. Instead, keep the system as is and you should learn to play and adapt to that new system, and not expect ZoS to change it and hand everything to you.

If the old Veteran Zones never got nerfed we would probably never even be having this discussion.

Nope I cant do it



Yuuuppp I'm a baaaad kid



Please come back when you can actually discuss tanking rather than repeating the same tired and easily refuted platitudes about "what real tanks do" and how "tanking is super boring zzzzz." Until then I am going to continue to expect zos developers to remove the nerf, yes nerf, so that they remain true to their own development principles.

Shill posting confirmed,

(lol button) < press

LOL you tanked on the PTS and your going to try and show me your 'rank'? How about when this goes live you tank those again and show me how high ranked you are? because your probably going to be around 50.

If you think tanking on PTS with all the current fairy tale builds and 300 CP (which you probably dont have) proves how you will be on live then I suggest you keep dreaming and keep thinking the PTS will actually mean something in 11 days.

How many people have done vDSA on PTS, like 5 groups?

Your not even in the top 100 for vDSA on live, you really think you'll do better with the coming changes?

Keep trying please.

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

I've only done a couple vet dungeons (mainly white gold and Imperial prison) but I've run with a few different tanks, and its very interesting.

It seems most tanks have begun to develop their own form/build for tanking and it varies a lot more based on the class, its no longer hold your shield up and dps. I've seen the same bosses all tanked completely differently, and this is what people need to learn. Anyone could throw on heavy armor, inner fire, and hold block all day. Now, much like DPS, tanks have to make different builds to suite their play-style, its no longer mindless and there is actually theory crafting for tanking.

I could disclose the different tanking strategies but I wouldn't want everyone to copy and paste the build, because thats what everyone does.

Well spooken Bosmern, thank you
I've only tried it with Nightblade and Sorcerer tank so far though

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

I've only done a couple vet dungeons (mainly white gold and Imperial prison) but I've run with a few different tanks, and its very interesting.

It seems most tanks have begun to develop their own form/build for tanking and it varies a lot more based on the class, its no longer hold your shield up and dps. I've seen the same bosses all tanked completely differently, and this is what people need to learn. Anyone could throw on heavy armor, inner fire, and hold block all day. Now, much like DPS, tanks have to make different builds to suite their play-style, its no longer mindless and there is actually theory crafting for tanking.

I could disclose the different tanking strategies but I wouldn't want everyone to copy and paste the build, because thats what everyone does.

Well spooken Bosmern, thank you
I've only tried it with Nightblade and Sorcerer tank so far though

I havent seen many Sorc tanks, how'd you like it? (I'm thinking of converting my sorc into a tank)

Harder than other classes. Dark Deal is hard to use thanks to the cast time.
It works, I'm still playing it the traditional way. Heavy armor and the usual tank things

I would like to use a bubble tank build. But this is not intended by Zenimax I suppose, so better not.
And in my former tests, a bubble build did not work in dungeons anyway.

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

The changes are awful. On live I can actually put out some dps (around 10k depending on the fight) on a boss and somewhat contribute. While doing said dps I light attack animation cancel, and I also have to manage my resources because I am using everything I have to contribute with dps and such. On the pts I just taunt and debuff then hold block or hit skills that give back stam. The only time I can pour in extra dps is when my resources are close to topped off and I have engine guardian proced. Its boring on the PTS. I would say I am doing way less button presses on the pts and instead of paying attention to a bunch of different things: caltrops, evil hunter, eruption, spiked armor, coagulating db, maim debuff, unstable flame dot, entropy dot, taunt debuff, and ofcourse boss positioning and the like.) on the pts I only worry about: major maim, taunt, spiked armor, coagulating, then I have to conserve magicka for igneous to regen stam, and hope for engine guardian procs. On the pts I contribute less and have less fun. It sucks.

Also Lord Thornos linked a score from the pts to prove he wasn't just bs'ing his experience, showing he actually tested. I believe the second score is from live to show he is on the leader board and not just some bad. just saying.

He's not rank 7 on live, he's not even in the top 100.

vDSA is a joke, people were grinding it a couple days after it launched, and its even easier when you are a V16 in the best V16 gear at legendary quality doing V14 content, its not that impressive and if it was live he wouldn't even be in the ranking for vDSA because other people would have a way higher score.

Well my mistake, but that doesn't change the fact that on the PTS many find tanking less enjoyable. For me it isn't an issue of just learning to adapt it is an issue of having less to do because without the stam regen I can't afford to do as much. I think maybe designing more interesting fight mechanics for the pve would have been better than making a stat useless to tanks. Be honest, how much content is it actually necessary to bring a tank? Not much. That is bad game design, not bad tank design.

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

hey, check out my signature. tanks where already doing those things. we didn't have to be nerfed to test new things.

It is funny that you compare tanking diversity to dps diversity. Many of my friends in PVE literally use the same item sets for magic dps or stamina dps and, with that respect, tanking has been much more diverse for a long time.

shill post?

(Lol button) < Press

Tanks wasn't 'nerfed'. Tanks were changed and you have to actually think while tanking now.

no, they were not changed, they were nerfed.

a regen they once had access to was taken away from them, and that's it, they were not improved anywhere or given anything to compensate, there was no improvement in any way, shape, or form. something was simply taken away, that's a nerf.

remember your arguments when ZoS strips your DPS or Healers regen next, cause I sure will.

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

I've only done a couple vet dungeons (mainly white gold and Imperial prison) but I've run with a few different tanks, and its very interesting.

I've done all of them on PTS with several tanks and all of them are doing the same thing: making their build to do what they've always done; hold block the entire fight (along with the other functions of a true tank).

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

its no longer hold your shield up and dps.

It never was unless the tank was bad.

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Anyone could throw on heavy armor, inner fire, and hold block all day.

Yes. They could. But that's not tanking. And that's not what good tanks do on live.

The stamina regeneration nerf (yes, NERF) is a terrible and unneeded change to solve the problem of player progression past the level of the content without creating much new content. It doesn't make tanking more fun. It doesn't make tanking more interesting. It doesn't cause us to diversify our builds. The nerf is bad across the board and there is no positive side to it.

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Also Lord Thornos linked a score from the pts to prove he wasn't just bs'ing his experience, showing he actually tested. I believe the second score is from live to show he is on the leader board and not just some bad. just saying.

Thank you for being level headed and actually understanding the point of my post. The rank seven was from AA around 2 weeks ago. Now it is rank 9.

@bosmern_Eso reaction is funny. at first they attempt to group me with people that are saying tanking isn't doable which I prove wrong. Then they tell me that my experience on pts isn't the same experience that I will have on live even though I used the exact same character.

As I have tried to tell them. Tanks are already doing all of the things that they think the stamina regeneration nerf is causing.

Your the one trying to show your leet PTS skills and posting your ranking on something maybe 200 people have played. Like I said, in 11 days post a picture of a rank and youll be no where near rank #1. PTS doesn't show skill, its a bunch of fairy tail builds with tons of glitches that can easily change something, Live is a completely different story.

As I already said. My PTS build was the same armor and cp level as my Live build.

You are the one trying to say that only bad kids don't share your opinion. It turns good players think differently than you to, but that isn't a shocker considering you can only repeat the same meaningless words of Eric Wrobel about what is not really interactive and not really that fun.

Also, do you even tank? It sounded like your entire post was what you saw tanks doing and not an actual experience on tanking.

TLDR

You aren't an authority on tanking
People who are an authority are calling out your false ideas

Draehl wrote: »

@Personofsecrets

I'm not particularly for or against the block changes- they are preferable in PvP, but that could easily have been incorporated into battle spirit. In any case this is NOT a balance discussion so much as an aesthetic/design one. ZOS decided that they felt holding block was bad for the game. You can't prove them wrong and neither can they prove you wrong. Any sort of credentials or accomplishments you drop in here mean nothing because this topic is purely opinion and not empirical in any way.

If you want to push back, I suggest you focus more on explaining to ZOS why it is not fun for you and less on trying to rub peoples faces in the mud based on your experience of their lack thereof.

The OP was the one that wanted to bring experience in the mix and yea, if someone says something that is extremely misleading (tanking is finally diverse!), then yes I will call them out on it.

As far as your suggestion about helping the devs out, thanks, but that is what many of us discussing the change have already been doing. Besides, it's not like feedback even matters at this point.

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

I've only done a couple vet dungeons (mainly white gold and Imperial prison) but I've run with a few different tanks, and its very interesting.

It seems most tanks have begun to develop their own form/build for tanking and it varies a lot more based on the class, its no longer hold your shield up and dps. I've seen the same bosses all tanked completely differently, and this is what people need to learn. Anyone could throw on heavy armor, inner fire, and hold block all day. Now, much like DPS, tanks have to make different builds to suite their play-style, its no longer mindless and there is actually theory crafting for tanking.

I could disclose the different tanking strategies but I wouldn't want everyone to copy and paste the build, because thats what everyone does.

You make it sound like people don't do that already, as if the 0 stam regen when blocking magically reveals certain tank characteristics, heh. I have always been fascinated by how other people tank things, since it usually varies a lot from what I would do. I think as time progresses and more people complete the new dungeons (after release I mean) there will be more similarities. What you are seeing are probably people having to adapt since their former playstyle doesn't apply. That being said, it is still possible to perma-block if that's what you desire, you just need a willing Templar who can give you a steady supply of shards and repentance

Moving away from the perma-block gestalt is all well and good if it truly adds to the diversity of builds, but I feel the ZOS did this in a fashion that emphasizes that "diversity" in a way that makes Heavy Armor tanking less desirable. Heavy Armor users already have less recovery than others. Nerfing (yes nerfing) stam regen while blocking makes HA tanking builds across-the-board less viable.

Ok, so that it all well and good in theory. Let's then look at what was put in place to compensate and encourage build diversity and long-term game health.

Armor Master: A set that allows Light Armor users to reach the mitgation cap. Certainly that counts as diversity, but does so in a fashion that makes Heavy Armor less desirable due to the sub-par passives (Bracing is far less desirable because in order to gain its benefit, you are giving up a fundamental mechanic everyone else enjoys... Stamina regeneration.) Prepare for a majority of non-HA tanks. Why wear heavy armor if it doesn't protect you more? Please enjoy superior DPS/healing and resource recovery.

Black Rose: One set that every HA tank now HAS to wear? NOT diversity, and it will nonetheless be out-performed by Armor Master LA wearers (mark my words, this is a thing that will happen. I am respeccing my Magicka Temp into a nigh-mythical Tri-Spec DPS/Heal/Tank build as we speak. Armor Master is so good that it diminishes the basic benefit of HA.)

This update does a lot of good things, and I think that the idea that tanking could perhaps be approached in a different fashion is a good one... but this nerf doesn't achieve that. It merely shifts the meta from one mechanical ideal to another. Making tanking more involved can be done in many better ways than just gutting Stam regen and providing nothing in place of it for those who care about tanking.

(Caveat: My main tank is a NB who has options for Stam recovery out-the-wazoo, and my DPS/Healer, channel-heavy Templar stands to only benefit from these changes. I am not put-out by the nerf personally at all, but I feel like it is a bad idea mechanically because my builds are not the only ones that exist.)