Crime needs fixing

Spottswoode · August 2015

I've been playing with the justice system for the last few weeks, doing robberies in random places, trying to run from guards, etc. Naturally, I've developed a list of criticisms and complaints about the current system. I'm going to be as comprehensive as I can be here. Some of this has been said before. Most of this can have the phrase "or make the guards killable" at the end. (And totally fix the problem. Just saying.)
Things that need to be removed.

Remove all guards from small buildings. It's a total bull#@# move.
Remove guard patrols from all thieves den entry and exit points. Same reason as above. Guards shouldn't be able to wander around and spot a wanted player coming out of a thieves den. Players should be able to idle outside the entrance until they get removed for inactivity without being attacked by guards.
Remove break-free from the guards. (Or at least give a warm-up on it.) It's absolute BS that the guards are invincible, have nearly infinite stamina to break free from our only defense against them, benefit from the CC cooldown. AND have an obscenely long CC range.
Remove murder penalties from NPC homicides that result from a failed pickpocketing. (Change them to assaults instead or a lesser amount homicide.) Killing someone in self defense, even if they were provoked, is difficult to try as murder. Yes, this will let the player kill people by failing to pickpocket them. They will still incur a bounty and have to fight the guards.

Things that need to be changed or added.

Guards should have their peripheral vision range reduced from it's current amount and even more at night.
Players should get a buff to non-detection at night. It's absolute non-sense that NPC's can spot you in a bush at night from 20 feet away. Adding this to the ledgermain skill line, specific to NPC's and guards, would prevent it from imbalancing PVP.
Obstacles and foliage should give concealment bonuses, regardless of whether they fully block the player. Currently, total concealment does appear to block guards from being able to see you, but having the top of your head or your shoulders visible somehow makes you readily identifiable.
Having higher ledgermain bonuses to pickpocketing skills should give the higher steal chance amount faster. Given that invincible guards roam the area constantly.
Add an investigation mode to guards as an in-between from Hidden to Visible. Suspicious is the best phrasing for it. This mode gives the guard longer, narrower "tunnel vision" range and causes him to look around for what he thought he saw. This gives players a chance to move away from the spot where he was attempting to hide. Unless they are right in front of him, of course.
Make a distraction item. Anything will do, honestly. The item aggroes guards and distracts them for a few seconds. Only works when stealthed.

Or just make the guards killable.

CGPsaint · August 2015

I remember luring guards to places that I could get on top of, and then just using them as pincushions to train my bow in Oblivion. Their magic abilities have put them snopes on that...

starkerealm · August 2015

Remember kids, fix your pets and any stray criminals you come across in Tamriel.

Spottswoode · August 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Remember kids, fix your pets and any stray criminals you come across in Tamriel.

We're already fixed, as it were. Trying to fix the fixing.
BTW, that's unconstitutional. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinner_v._Oklahoma

Athas24 · August 2015

Nice Post OP! I agree with a lot of this. There are ways to make crime fun/challenging but some of the stuff is overboard. Keep in mind, I've been successfully stealing left and right here so I'm not just complaining because I don't know the proper way to loot something. . . It's just annoying when guards can run forever, break cc and if they hit me 2x I'm smoked.

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2015

I just want to see them make guards become killable for two reasons. First, the guards get really insulting considering who I am. Whether its Arrow of the King, or the Queen's Champion, or Emeric's Champion they don't seem to recognize that. In a lot of cultures the insult constitutes a duel-worthy infraction and someone of the Vestige-Champion's importance could get away with killing the impudent scum who always insults him on the way to the bank. I realize this doesn't sound particularly kind in a modern setting, but given the fantasy-medieval/classical setting I think it would have its place.

The second point I'd like to make is that I'm hoping for a player-Enforcer system to get added to the game when Thieves Guild goes live. I think hiding from enforcers would be more fun than hiding from npc's anyway (At least if done well).

Mashille · August 2015

I disagree with all your 'Things that need to be removed.'
To that list: HELL NO!

It shoudln't be easy and some of the stuff you are complaining about should not be changed at all and you just want everything handed to you on a plate, Guards should be in small building and you should get murder penalties for Pick pocketing and if guards couldn't break free then no one would ever get caught.

Some of the things you suggested to add are cool though.

Akavir_Sentinel · August 2015

So, basically you want to be able to kill and steal at will with little or no consequence. No.

yodased · August 2015

Killing someone in self defense, even if they were provoked, is difficult to try as murder.

That's not self defense, at least it's innvoluntary manslaughteri.e. "Sorry, your honor he over reacted to me trying to steal from him and attacked me so I killed him".

Guards.Words.Anger

If you could kill the guards then you would kill the guards and it would be a redundant way to gain money/broken system. The guards being immortal is the only thing that actually puts risk into the situation. With 10 minutes you can learn the guards rotation and never be seen in any city if you so choose. Them patrolling outside of the den is because its part of the city. Guards should just stay away from the most disreputable part of town?

That's their job. to patrol. the bad parts of town.

The other additions, if they make the system better for you I'm not against it.

TL:DR You can't remove the guards immortality and have a working system & that isn't self defense.

UrQuan · August 2015

Spottswoode wrote: »

I've been playing with the justice system for the last few weeks, doing robberies in random places, trying to run from guards, etc. Naturally, I've developed a list of criticisms and complaints about the current system. I'm going to be as comprehensive as I can be here. Some of this has been said before. Most of this can have the phrase "or make the guards killable" at the end. (And totally fix the problem. Just saying.)

Until and unless player enforcers are added to the justice system (this part is still being worked on right? It hasn't been abandoned?) I can't agree that making guards killable would solve anything. It would result in cities becoming entirely depopulated, except for any unattackable NPCs, because there are trolls who would make it their business to ensure that happened. After player enforcers are added, people would at least be able to fight back against that type of behavior, so at that point it might be OK to make the guards killable (but still tough).

Spottswoode wrote: »

Things that need to be removed.
Remove all guards from small buildings. It's a total bull#@# move.

Remove guard patrols from all thieves den entry and exit points. Same reason as above. Guards shouldn't be able to wander around and spot a wanted player coming out of a thieves den. Players should be able to idle outside the entrance until they get removed for inactivity without being attacked by guards.

Remove break-free from the guards. (Or at least give a warm-up on it.) It's absolute BS that the guards are invincible, have nearly infinite stamina to break free from our only defense against them, benefit from the CC cooldown. AND have an obscenely long CC range.

Remove murder penalties from NPC homicides that result from a failed pickpocketing. (Change them to assaults instead or a lesser amount homicide.) Killing someone in self defense, even if they were provoked, is difficult to try as murder. Yes, this will let the player kill people by failing to pickpocket them. They will still incur a bounty and have to fight the guards.

My thoughts on your list in order:

Agreed, but we may or may not agree on exactly how large a building has to be before it's reasonable to have a guard in it.
Completely disagree. Guards should patrol anywhere and everywhere on the streets within city limits. If you want to go to a den, or exit a den, without the possibility of there being a guard right there, then you can go to the entrance outside of town.
I understand the reasoning behind this, but I think guards need to have this break-free in order for there ever to be a legitimate risk of getting caught.
Totally disagree with this one. If you commit a crime, and during the commission of that crime someone dies, even if you didn't intend for them to die (or even if you didn't directly cause their death) you are still considered to have committed murder. It's true in most countries in the real world (I think in some states it even automatically makes it a death penalty case - I could be wrong on that though), so I don't see why it shouldn't be the same way in Tamriel.

Spottswoode wrote: »

Things that need to be changed or added.
Guards should have their peripheral vision range reduced from it's current amount and even more at night.

Players should get a buff to non-detection at night. It's absolute non-sense that NPC's can spot you in a bush at night from 20 feet away. Adding this to the ledgermain skill line, specific to NPC's and guards, would prevent it from imbalancing PVP.

Obstacles and foliage should give concealment bonuses, regardless of whether they fully block the player. Currently, total concealment does appear to block guards from being able to see you, but having the top of your head or your shoulders visible somehow makes you readily identifiable.

Having higher ledgermain bonuses to pickpocketing skills should give the higher steal chance amount faster. Given that invincible guards roam the area constantly.

Add an investigation mode to guards as an in-between from Hidden to Visible. Suspicious is the best phrasing for it. This mode gives the guard longer, narrower "tunnel vision" range and causes him to look around for what he thought he saw. This gives players a chance to move away from the spot where he was attempting to hide. Unless they are right in front of him, of course.

Make a distraction item. Anything will do, honestly. The item aggroes guards and distracts them for a few seconds. Only works when stealthed.

My thoughts on your second list, in order:

It's easy enough to go from one end of a city to the other while avoiding being spotted by the guards already. I don't think reducing their vision is a good idea.
This idea I like. Especially tying it to the Legerdemain skill line, and making sure that it only applies for NPCs. I wholeheartedly support this idea.
Hmm, maybe. My only concern would be whether it would make it too fast and easy to make a ton of gold. It would make logical sense to have a mechanic like that, though.
Again, maybe. It's an interesting idea, and if it was balanced properly it could work.
I like this idea. Make it a consumable that you can only buy from fences. Give it a fairly long cooldown, and make it so that the distraction is fairly brief - that way it can't be abused.

In all, you've got some ideas I agree with, and some I don't. An interesting read.

lazybonez · August 2015

If you are indoors, the trick is to either run up a set of stairs as fast as you can and then jump to the bottom-most level then quickly enter sneak mode behind something (works great in Inns and some of the Mage's Guilds). Or, if there is only one floor, jump on top of anything you can so they cannot reach you then enter sneak mode. Or, you know... don't get caught. Invisibility potions are useful as well.

Honestly though, I was just having a discussion with my husband last night about how we felt the justice system is way too forgiving. So, obviously, I don't believe they should make it any easier than it already is.

Moonscythe · August 2015

I have never seen a guard outside of the backdoors of the refuges in Vulkhel Guard, Daggerfall or Davon's Watch. I seldom see one anywhere near the in-town entrance. Of course, I am a competent thief and don't get caught (most of the time) and I don't commit murder or pickpocket anyone (because I am an incompetent pickpocket). Nevertheless, I don't think making guards killable is anything like a good idea.

Moonscythe · August 2015

lazybonez wrote: »

If you are indoors, the trick is to either run up a set of stairs as fast as you can and then jump to the bottom-most level then quickly enter sneak mode behind something (works great in Inns and some of the Mage's Guilds). Or, if there is only one floor, jump on top of anything you can so they cannot reach you then enter sneak mode. Or, you know... don't get caught. Invisibility potions are useful as well.

Honestly though, I was just having a discussion with my husband last night about how we felt the justice system is way too forgiving. So, obviously, I don't believe they should make it any easier than it already is.

That sounds like a good idea but, in my case, the few times I have been caught by a guard while having way too much stolen goods on me, I was cornered between the wall and a cabinet and could'nt run anywhere. I died, ignominiously and vowed never to do it again. I launder everything.

Tholian1 · August 2015

The only thing that needs to be fixed is, the guards telling me that if I don't stop what I am doing, they are going to call a guard.

Become a better thief is the only thing I can suggest.

MikeB · August 2015

How about they just make it so when it says "You will no longer be killed on sight by guards" it actually be true? If you have a bounty of 1g a guard will still try to kill you.

mwd419_ESO · August 2015

lol.

get gud.

delushin · August 2015

I thought you can kill the guards?

Taleof2Cities · August 2015

They should make an ultra Trials where the guards spawn as "adds" that support the main boss (e.g. Manticore).

On the serious side, my chars have been working up Legerdemain on chests and bank boxes only, and it's been working fine for me. My characters have a limit to their lawlessness.

No issues with the items OP has posted ... it's a good list of possible changes.

As another poster mentioned in a prior thread, crime doesn't pay. Be prepared for the consequences.

Spottswoode · August 2015

Incoming wall of text.

yodased wrote: »

Killing someone in self defense, even if they were provoked, is difficult to try as murder.

That's not self defense, at least it's innvoluntary manslaughteri.e. "Sorry, your honor he over reacted to me trying to steal from him and attacked me so I killed him".

Guards.Words.Anger

If you could kill the guards then you would kill the guards and it would be a redundant way to gain money/broken system. The guards being immortal is the only thing that actually puts risk into the situation. With 10 minutes you can learn the guards rotation and never be seen in any city if you so choose. Them patrolling outside of the den is because its part of the city. Guards should just stay away from the most disreputable part of town?

That's their job. to patrol. the bad parts of town.

The other additions, if they make the system better for you I'm not against it.

TL:DR You can't remove the guards immortality and have a working system & that isn't self defense.

If you try to steal from someone's pocket, which is to say
1) You don't make an overt attempt at extortion or any verbal attempt at violence
2) you approach in a manner which is not imminently threatening
3) and you do not make any attempt to forcibly take the item you failed to grab without noticing
It is really just attempted theft at this point. If said victim pulls out a sword and begins attacking you, even as you are fleeing, it is self defense. Not justifiable homicide, mind you. Response to a non-violent crime with deadly force is a crime on it's own. I'm well aware of common law standing on this. Also I covered this.

wrote:

Remove murder penalties from NPC homicides that result from a failed pickpocketing. (Change them to assaults instead or a lesser amount homicide.)

We can quibble about the meaning murder, both as a legal definition and philosophical definition. But as long as the death was not committed with intent and malice aforethought, it's either a form of manslaughter or criminal negligence. Neither is considered as serious as murder. @UrQuan this should cover your comment as well.
Also, capital punishment is usually used for premeditated murder in most countries that have it, with those that practice sharia law being a notable exception. Many more countries, such as France, have totally abolished the death penalty. Worldwide use of the death penalty is on a general decline. Even Africa has a growing number of countries that aren't using it anymore.
In the US, the death penalty can only be issued for premeditated murder or treason.

Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »

So, basically you want to be able to kill and steal at will with little or no consequence. No.

Eh...no I don't. If the number of patrols were increased to compensate for these changes and it made it more difficult to get the "good" spots for stealing, I would find that agreeable. Actually my only point is to make it more like other Elder Scrolls games, in regards to the abilities of master level thieves. Slower bounty degradation and stronger guard attacks are also both fair game, in my opinion, in balancing against my changes.
At no point did I suggest that no bounty be incurred and players not be attacked because of their bounty. Making the commission of crime easier by using a few mechanics tweaks

Tholian1 wrote: »

The only thing that needs to be fixed is, the guards telling me that if I don't stop what I am doing, they are going to call a guard.

Become a better thief is the only thing I can suggest.

I actually agree with that first part. Something I would like to see would be responding guards, spawning inside of places. But as the guards are invincible, this gets to be BS really quick. If THOSE guards, (the ones that respond to calls) were killable I'd have no problem at all.

UrQuan wrote: »

[
Agreed, but we may or may not agree on exactly how large a building has to be before it's reasonable to have a guard in it.

Completely disagree. Guards should patrol anywhere and everywhere on the streets within city limits. If you want to go to a den, or exit a den, without the possibility of there being a guard right there, then you can go to the entrance outside of town.

I understand the reasoning behind this, but I think guards need to have this break-free in order for there ever to be a legitimate risk of getting caught.

Hmm, maybe. My only concern would be whether it would make it too fast and easy to make a ton of gold. It would make logical sense to have a mechanic like that, though.

I cherry picked a few here.
1) Taverns are ok. Shops are not.
2) I'm perfectly fine with guards patrolling around the entrance, but there are a few where they walk right next to it. If players have to come out in stealth to avoid detection, I'm perfectly fine with that. Once stealth doesn't do any good because of chance, I'm not.
3)I'm not opposed to guards having global reductions to CC, but they already have an absurdly long CC range to make it very possible to nab players. I've been hit with their form of talons through two buildings and been grabbed by chains from very long distances to make this a minimal issue in my mind.
4) Wouldn't increase the odds of getting better items.

Moonscythe wrote: »

I have never seen a guard outside of the backdoors of the refuges in Vulkhel Guard, Daggerfall or Davon's Watch. I seldom see one anywhere near the in-town entrance. Of course, I am a competent thief and don't get caught (most of the time) and I don't commit murder or pickpocket anyone (because I am an incompetent pickpocket). Nevertheless, I don't think making guards killable is anything like a good idea.

The patrols vary from place to place. Vulkhel guard does have one that patrols near the entry point in town, but they generally can't see directly at the point. I can make videos to show the problem though.

MikeB wrote: »

How about they just make it so when it says "You will no longer be killed on sight by guards" it actually be true? If you have a bounty of 1g a guard will still try to kill you.

Resisting arrest will always get you killed. But there should be a minimum amount required before the guards go into kill mode. It's kinda iffy right now.

delushin wrote: »

I thought you can kill the guards?

You can't.

mwd419_ESO wrote: »

lol.

get gud.

I did. Still doesn't mean there aren't problems.

UrQuan · August 2015

Spottswoode wrote: »

We can quibble about the meaning murder, both as a legal definition and philosophical definition. But as long as the death was not committed with intent and malice aforethought, it's either a form of manslaughter or criminal negligence. Neither is considered as serious as murder. @UrQuan this should cover your comment as well.
Also, capital punishment is usually used for premeditated murder in most countries that have it, with those that practice sharia law being a notable exception. Many more countries, such as France, have totally abolished the death penalty. Worldwide use of the death penalty is on a general decline. Even Africa has a growing number of countries that aren't using it anymore.
In the US, the death penalty can only be issued for premeditated murder or treason.

In a lot of places (including places in the US - not sure if this applies in every state though) the act of premeditating any crime, even if you hadn't specifically intended to kill someone, is automatically assumed to make any deaths that occur as a result of that crime to be premeditated murder. Rob someone and accidentally kill them when they fight back and your gun goes off? First degree murder, and eligible for the death penalty in a death penalty state. Again, though, laws vary, so that may or may not be the case where you are.

Regardless, I think that makes it totally reasonable that all innocents who you kill are treated the same as far as your penalty, whether they attacked you first (due to you stealing from them) or not.

As far as the "small building with a guard in it" goes, I think we're on the same page.

Milktray · August 2015

lazybonez wrote: »

If you are indoors, the trick is to either run up a set of stairs as fast as you can and then jump to the bottom-most level then quickly enter sneak mode behind something (works great in Inns and some of the Mage's Guilds). Or, if there is only one floor, jump on top of anything you can so they cannot reach you then enter sneak mode. Or, you know... don't get caught. Invisibility potions are useful as well.

Honestly though, I was just having a discussion with my husband last night about how we felt the justice system is way too forgiving. So, obviously, I don't believe they should make it any easier than it already is.

I agree, less forgiving if anything

Even at level3 it's simple to steal from banks etc so money can be made from the get go, if you get caught pay up or run like hell. After the first try i just pay up but then i try not to get a bounty in the first place.

Spottswoode · August 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

In a lot of places (including places in the US - not sure if this applies in every state though) the act of premeditating any crime, even if you hadn't specifically intended to kill someone, is automatically assumed to make any deaths that occur as a result of that crime to be premeditated murder. Rob someone and accidentally kill them when they fight back and your gun goes off? First degree murder, and eligible for the death penalty in a death penalty state. Again, though, laws vary, so that may or may not be the case where you are.

Specific crimes, not any. Felonies, generally. No one's getting the death penalty over a misdemeanor. If they are, I have some friends in the ACLU and Amnesty International I need to call.

UrQuan · August 2015

Spottswoode wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

In a lot of places (including places in the US - not sure if this applies in every state though) the act of premeditating any crime, even if you hadn't specifically intended to kill someone, is automatically assumed to make any deaths that occur as a result of that crime to be premeditated murder. Rob someone and accidentally kill them when they fight back and your gun goes off? First degree murder, and eligible for the death penalty in a death penalty state. Again, though, laws vary, so that may or may not be the case where you are.

Specific crimes, not any. Felonies, generally.

Actually, yeah, that's true. It wouldn't apply if you accidentally killed someone while committing premeditated tax fraud, for example... Unless you have a particularly violent method of tax fraud lol

GreySix · August 2015

I like the system as it is. Stupid and careless criminals get mercilessly curb-stomped. Frankly, it's too easy on criminals right now.

Bring in the Justice system so my character can ruthlessly hunt down and destroy criminal scum, and then I'll support some of the OP's ideas.

Spottswoode · August 2015

GreySix wrote: »

I like the system as it is. Stupid and careless criminals get mercilessly curb-stomped. Frankly, it's too easy on criminals right now.

Bring in the Justice system so my character can ruthlessly hunt down and destroy criminal scum, and then I'll support some of the OP's ideas.

I'm not advocating softening the punishment end of things, with the sole exception of removing full murder penalties from failed pickpocketing. (Which still makes you wanted.) I don't know where you all get this from. I'm advocating making the mechanics better. If you get caught, you go down. Asking for the detection to be less gimmicky and actually giving players a chance to sneak in the dark isn't asking for leniency from the system.
I'm with everyone on player enforcers.

But I have an idea: let's give all criminal players electrified keyboards that give them lethal electrocution whenever they die in game. Maybe that's harsh enough. (/sarcasm)

BlueGreenMikey · August 2015

One thing I've never liked: getting a bounty when you attack and kill a NPC outside of anyone else's vision. That doesn't really make much sense, unless forensic science is much better in Tamriel than can be expected.

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2015

BlueGreenMikey wrote: »

One thing I've never liked: getting a bounty when you attack and kill a NPC outside of anyone else's vision. That doesn't really make much sense, unless forensic science is much better in Tamriel than can be expected.

I think the mages guild constitutes 'science' in Tamriel.

Volkodav · August 2015

People want things to be more real,..then make the guards killable.Not because I want to go around killing them,but if I get caught thieving,there IS that option to flee.Only thing is,you cant flee.The kill you instantly,or fight you until your fingers die of exhaustion! In reality they'd die. Plus,I always wonder how they can tell I have stolen anything? Those who accuse you are usually indoors.They dont run outside and find a guard. If you make it outside,how can they tell you have anything on you??

UrQuan · August 2015

WhiskeyRiver.AZub17_ESO wrote: »

People want things to be more real,..then make the guards killable.Not becausee I want to go aroun killing them,but if I get caught thieving,there IS that option to flee.Only thing is,you cant flee.The kill you instantly,or fight you until your fingers die of exhaustion! In reality they'd die. Plus,I always wonder how they can tell I have stolen anything? Those who accuse you are usually indoors.They dont run outside and find a guard. If you make it outside,how can they tell you have anything on you??

You can totally flee from guards - I've even successfully done it on a level 4 character. They key is to always keep an escape route in mind when you might get accosted by the guards, don't hesitate for anything that isn't helping you on that route, and be smart about how you spend your stamina (between sprinting and using break free: always make sure you have enough to break free). It also helps if your escape route includes a body of water to jump into...

Carde · August 2015

Just stealth again?

Mighty_oakk · August 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

WhiskeyRiver.AZub17_ESO wrote: »

People want things to be more real,..then make the guards killable.Not becausee I want to go aroun killing them,but if I get caught thieving,there IS that option to flee.Only thing is,you cant flee.The kill you instantly,or fight you until your fingers die of exhaustion! In reality they'd die. Plus,I always wonder how they can tell I have stolen anything? Those who accuse you are usually indoors.They dont run outside and find a guard. If you make it outside,how can they tell you have anything on you??

You can totally flee from guards - I've even successfully done it on a level 4 character. They key is to always keep an escape route in mind when you might get accosted by the guards, don't hesitate for anything that isn't helping you on that route, and be smart about how you spend your stamina (between sprinting and using break free: always make sure you have enough to break free). It also helps if your escape route includes a body of water to jump into...

Guards pretty much behave like mobs. They chase forever unless you stop and hit them once after a certain point