Consensus is this is a change designed to address two symptoms of a problem. The two most commonly agreed and mentioned symptoms are perma-blocking tanks and those who dislike block casting abilities.

Well, zero Stan regen while blocking will end perma blocking;

Predictable net results: tanking gets tougher in higher end pvp content (this will have little impact on your elite player base who are either on test on watching test intently and taking notes / for anyone not in the top tier veteran dungeons, time trials, dragon star arena just got tougher)

Unintended but predictable result: a majority of tanks and for that matter DPS will move away from stamina based builds to a more balanced build or a magica build as magic suffers no net negative from perma-blocking, so more destro or rest second bars for tanks become much more common place.

The net end result is a move towards magica based builds for all types and a move away from stamina based builds and towards magics builds as in the end game these are much much much better as a result.

This strikes me as an attempt at social engineering and it's going to fail because end game players will just flock, in fact they are already preparing their light armor and their magica tank builds for the DLC.

Stamina based players damage mitigation is based on block and dodge roll both of which got smacked in the face.

Magica based players have higher pools of magica better shielding and shield stacking options plus can blow their whole stamina pool on blocking and dodge rolling and still have their primary resource not to mention........

Block casting an insta cast magica ability say the magica version of vieled strike stops stamina regent while doing nothing to magica regen.

Hmmmmm, so a magica based NB, can dodge roll and block through their entire stamina pool and still have time to bar swap and stack hardened ward and the light armor magica shield and block cast any magica based ability while still earning magica back.

So, if I, and I do prefer stamina builds to magics builds just my preferred play style, my only two options for damage mitigation are a huge drain on my primary resource, I don't regen my primary resource and I have a crap magics pool to do one maybe two things which before its fried.

As much as the tag line is its for the overall health of the game, the talking points should be its for the overall health of magics builds which will be predominate in the next patch and stamina builds not so much.

EDIT:

The crumminest part about all of this is, for the most top end players and pvpvers don't really care much about changes once they get their hands on it and tinker with it. They will find a way to work with almost any pile of $@*+ they are given. But for a greater majority of players who I guess where I would fall into the filthy casual category who want to play what we like and weat what we want and stilll have a good time this really sucks. Because by the time the next DLC drops stamina builds will be for your alt you goof around with......

danno8 wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

You left out Repentance, a pretty big one.

Thank you for your due diligence. However, the case may be made for it being implied, as a morph of Restoring Aura that has no cost and ... Oh, yes, missed that. Apparently it also restores stamina and health to ALLIES on activation. Source material updated.

Not sure why you are highlighting the term "allies". It restores the stamina and health to you and your allies. All skills that say "allies" actually mean "you and your allies" in practice.

Maybe you already know this.

It does, but not so helpful for a templar tank. You can only use Repentance once per corpse, not once per templar...if there's even any corpses around. I cant use Repentance when I desperately need stamina, if another templar in the group or nearby, already used it.

Many boss fights have little to no adds, some adds aren't possible to drain in the first place. This is such a situational skill and nothing that offers a templar tank a reliable way to self-restore stamina when he actually needs it, while tanking a boss.

The skill also scales of max magicka or stamina. So tanks gets the least out of Repentance.

Radiant Aura, the other morphs, only gives you Minor endurance or 10% stamina rec. The other buff, Major Endurance, is the same you get from a stamina potion

If ZOS are serious about this change they have to give templar some sort of minor "self" stamina restore. They need to look over all class tools to restore stamina really. I dont think the sorc way, or Dark Deal, is worth mentioning either. As a tank you really dont want to drain your precious magicka pool, it's just as bad as being low on stamina. It's also a skill that makes you very vulnerable to interrupt and dmg.

Every single PvE group in 2.1 will be DK tank(maybe a rare NB) and the mandatory Templar heal + Spear bot, unless ZoS works a little harder on tweaking these things.

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Using the Armor Master Set, I made a magicka-based NB light armor tank on PTS that hits hard caps for spell and physical resist. With better set arrangements, you could easily get it over 2.5k spell damage. Pretty much a DPS-tank replacement build, so yea, it will definitely happen.

Will not happen because you've made another one DD spec. Try it at AA HM first.

IC sets are useless for me as tank due to lack of jewelry. Wearing any of it will loose two of my sets (Footman, Hist Bark, Engine Guardian). Each one is better than Black Rose or Armor Master. I may change Footman to Black Rose only if the one will have jewelry. Hist Bark locked because we can't craft jewelry. Engine Guardian is the best set in the game, I will not change it.

Swarog wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Using the Armor Master Set, I made a magicka-based NB light armor tank on PTS that hits hard caps for spell and physical resist. With better set arrangements, you could easily get it over 2.5k spell damage. Pretty much a DPS-tank replacement build, so yea, it will definitely happen.

Will not happen because you've made another one DD spec. Try it at AA HM first.

IC sets are useless for me as tank due to lack of jewelry. Wearing any of it will loose two of my sets (Footman, Hist Bark, Engine Guardian). Each one is better than Black Rose or Armor Master. I may change Footman to Black Rose only if the one will have jewelry. Hist Bark locked because we can't craft jewelry. Engine Guardian is the best set in the game, I will not change it.

That's the thing, by stacking armor and spell resist buffs (on top of Major/Minor buffs) you can easily become a DPS that can tank as well. Because group DPS doesn't take as much of loss, you could have 2-3 players spec'd like this for AA HM, rather than relying on 1 tank. The mitigation from Footman can be gained from elsewhere (e.g. Damage Shields, Absorb Magic, Circle of Protection, Consuming Darkness, etc) while at the same time you can contribute much better to killing the boss faster. So, 5pc Armor Master, 2pc Engine Guardian or Blood Spawn (if going Engine Guardian you might need 2 pieces of Heavy Armor), then whatever you want/need for jewelry and weapons.

Rahkim wrote: »

Leeching Strikes returns 238 magicka and stamina, and 2% health, on each basic attack.

Siphoning Attacks- it's a 10% chance to restore the larger magicka/stamina total from non-basic attacks.

My appolgies for the delay in answering. It took time to get to my NightBlade resource in Wayrest. A Daggerfall template VR16 creation, with no atributes spent, and no armor on. Some of this changed with the patch today, so I will change my source material to read:

Darlgon wrote: »

-Siphoning Strikes Line
-(Active) Siphoning Strikes- For 15s, each basic attack returns 891 Magicka and Stamina
-(Active) Leeching Strikes- For duration of toggle, each basic attack returns 238 Magicka and Stamina, plus 2% Health
-(Active) Siphoning Attacks- For 15s, each basic attack returns 891 Magicka and Stamina. Each non-basic attack has a 10% chance to returns 1782 Magicka and Stamina

Thank you for your observant eye. It takes time to Alt-Tab between game and Google docs for EVERY CLASS and EVERY RACE, trying to type up the description from the game, so errors sometimes creep in. It makes Walks-in-Mud both tired and crabby. The source material has been updated

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Oh, just what we needed: another thread on permablock balancing.

And what do you know, certain few people just ignore every positive aspect of this change, the big picture, and every way they have of adjusting to the situation and start screaming.


Can we please just move on?

Once this patch is on live, you'll see that it is still more than easy to do all content in the game.

Alternatively you could play on PTS and find that out yourself, but obviously that is never going to happen...

There are no positive aspects to this *cough* "fix" and youre still a troll.

Jennifur_Vultee wrote: »

Ok, so as a magic based DK tank, with no points in stamina, as I understand it if I block I will not regen stamina for blocking and will lose stamina being hit while blocking. So if that's the case why will I want to bother being a sword and shield tank at all? Even as is I have to manage my stamina with potions and food just to have enough to be able to block...gods forbid I toss in a bash or two. I guess Zenimax wants all sword and shield tanks will have to respec with all points in stamina now, use nothing but stamina jewelry, eat green stamina foods just to try to have a huge stamina pool that I hope can get through a fight? As is my DPS is laughable all I'm good for is taunting, being a meat shield and generally annoying things while the DPS kills it and now they want to take the meat out of my shield. Why should anyone bother playing as a sword and shield tank if they can't do damage and can't effectively block?

I guess my mage is going to have to take over as my main in The Elder DPS Online: Tamriel Limited. I really with Zenimax had a dev team with clear vision, leadership and understanding of what its like to actually play the game they work on.

This is the first major content release.

This is just the beginning.

By the way, for everyone that remembers all the videos on youtube featuring our previous Lead Gameplay Designer [Nick Konkle].

Do you think Chris Strasz [our current Lead Gameplay Designer] will follow a similar way of community interaction and communication through appearing in community podcosts and video talk shows?

Teiji wrote: »

By the way, for everyone that remembers all the videos on youtube featuring our previous Lead Gameplay Designer [Nick Konkle].

Do you think Chris Strasz [our current Lead Gameplay Designer] will follow a similar way of community interaction and communication through appearing in community podcosts and video talk shows?

This learned scholar has no preference for either Kena Konkle, or Kena Strasz. They are both employees of ZoS, and may have less power than you think.

HOWEVER, Kena Konkle always seemed nervous with all that contact and talking on film. Maybe he is relieved to NOT have to do those presentations.

Darlgon wrote: »

This humble scholar apologizes for failing to respond to these posts sooner. Busy with many things, you can imagine.

Apokh wrote: »

The problem with "this scholar" and his followers is, they only hear what they want to. When you want sth anecdotal, look at the 1st and second post in this thread.

This honored scholar does not have "followers", that he knows of, at least.

This lecture was an attempt at a neutral presentation of stats, not the scaremongering from either side of the debate about the zero stamina regen, even offering different solutions to regen stamina, listed in the SECOND AND THIRD POSTS of this thread.

Thank you for your other insights. HOWEVER, again, this scholar MUST say, you only did White Gold Tower, according to your post, which was DESIGNED, according to Kena Wrobel, for no stamina regen while blocking. The other encounters not in WGT WERE designed with STAMINA REGEN while blocking. Thus, the request for more information.

A few others in this thread have stated not having problems in scaled up pledges, so thank them for those reports.

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@Darlgon So, if I do understand the contents of the discussion, the decision for not regenerating stamina while blocking was made mainly with PVE considerations in mind.

While it is also the way this scholar understands the decision, it is being launched with a AvA centric expansion, so the honored developers MUST have had both in mind. Correct? Regardless, In the lecture, neutrality on the subject was the goal.

Jennifur_Vultee wrote: »

Ok, so as a magic based DK tank, with no points in stamina, as I understand it if I block I will not regen stamina for blocking and will lose stamina being hit while blocking.

This scholars magicka based DK tried tanking. Hats off to you for being sucessful. However in his small personal guild, who usually field 4-8 characters, there already exist two who play much less and claim the tank title. As such, and with only one Templar healer in the group, he had to become the healer for the second party when four mans happen. Also, with a magicka focus, people tend to put a DK in the DPS role, so he has builds for both Destro/Resto and Resto/Resto.

Sadly, conditions seem to dictate that his DK be replaced with, as others put it, a REAL healer, a temp and maybe a DPS NB. We will see what happens when the new expansion drops.

i bolded the text but ill double post:

"This lecture was an attempt at a neutral presentation of stats, not the scaremongering from either side of the debate about the zero stamina regen, even offering different solutions to regen stamina, listed in the SECOND AND THIRD POSTS of this thread."

with that in mind, i feel a bit safe building a theory on what they did- in order for tanks to sustain their Stamina bar, they have to put greater focus on doing so. what i mean is, that not every tom, ***, and harry, can sustain blocking very well. so if you want to tank, the abilities you listed may end up being a must. the potential is they spent copious amounts of time and money, making sustained blocking (not quite the equivalent of "permablock") a tank only capability.

so yeah, tanks are going to lose their stamina regen, but it looks like they modified the "tank" lines in such a way that it may not be near as bad as just "you lose your stamina when you block" comes off. im some what skeptical on the feasibility of their theory, as well as the impact with regard to the "permablock" issue. it could >in theory< balance a weak DPS tank versus a hard hitting DPS with no survivability (due to a lack of blocking), but that would be something i would test and i can't right now.

White gold tower is designed for not having stamina regeneration as much as it is designed for tanks.

Just look at the planar inhibitor fight for the new vision of what having fun with a tank means.