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At what point should we discuss CP imbalance in Cyrodiil?
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sadownik✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
Nobody is saying that having 1000 cp is god mode. But please try runing without slotting any cps, or go to pts and make 3600 cp character and tell me how it feels.
Of course there is going to be a huge difference between 0 CP and 3600 CP. But that disparity does not exist on the live servers so it's an irrelevant point.
I think you didnt answer my question on purpose. Try not slotting any of your cps and do some pvp please. I know i did that with my puny 91 cps and i already felt big difference. But then again its not really about you or me. Game to survie must have new players comming and cp system certainly doesnt make it easy.
It's entirely irrelevant because I wouldn't ever play without any CPs. Anyone who is V14 has at least around 80 and yes no doubt I will feel the difference but I will still kill bad players because they're bad. It does make a difference, yes, but I think the difference is exaggerated particularly when we're talking about someone having 250 - 300 vs someone that has 400.
I really dont think there is an issue with difference between 300 - 400. But i have to say that there is a very distinct issue with 90 - 500. Judging by my guildchat 300 cp is standard, 500 + is not rare at all and few guys who claim to have 700+. Now with every week this difference will get much bigger since Z. in its infinite wisdom introduced xp potions.0 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
The difference may be somewhat exaggerated but in some cases the disparity between champ points is very real. As you said in a later post, avg new player will have ~80 cp. Average current player has 300+. Their lack of game knowledge paired with their dwarfed stats makes for an uphill battle that many will not want to endure.Edited by Jules on August 17, 2015 7:55PM2 -
Garion✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
The difference may be somewhat exaggerated but in some cases the disparity between champ points is very real. As you said in a later post, avg new player will have ~80 cp. Average current player has 300+. Their lack of game knowledge paired with their dwarfed stats makes for an uphill battle that many will not want to endure.
Then perhaps they need to reconsider playing an MMO. The grind / learning curve in ESO is significantly less steep than in some other MMOs - people don't seem to realise this.Lastobeth - VR16 Sorc - PvP Rank 41 (AD)
Lastoblyat - VR16 Templar - PvP Rank 14 (AD)
Ninja Pete - VR16 NB - PvP Rank 10 (AD)
Labo the Banana Slayer - VR14 Sorc - PvP Rank 12 (EP)
Member of Banana Squad | Officer of Arena0 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
The difference may be somewhat exaggerated but in some cases the disparity between champ points is very real. As you said in a later post, avg new player will have ~80 cp. Average current player has 300+. Their lack of game knowledge paired with their dwarfed stats makes for an uphill battle that many will not want to endure.
Then perhaps they need to reconsider playing an MMO. The grind / learning curve in ESO is significantly less steep than in some other MMOs - people don't seem to realise this.
I understand your POV but this game needs to be less elite and more attractive to a new population. So many people have left this game for others. They need to be replaced with a new crop of players or the game will die.3 -
sadownik✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
The difference may be somewhat exaggerated but in some cases the disparity between champ points is very real. As you said in a later post, avg new player will have ~80 cp. Average current player has 300+. Their lack of game knowledge paired with their dwarfed stats makes for an uphill battle that many will not want to endure.
Then perhaps they need to reconsider playing an MMO. The grind / learning curve in ESO is significantly less steep than in some other MMOs - people don't seem to realise this.
Please name them.1 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
The difference may be somewhat exaggerated but in some cases the disparity between champ points is very real. As you said in a later post, avg new player will have ~80 cp. Average current player has 300+. Their lack of game knowledge paired with their dwarfed stats makes for an uphill battle that many will not want to endure.
Then perhaps they need to reconsider playing an MMO. The grind / learning curve in ESO is significantly less steep than in some other MMOs - people don't seem to realise this.
I understand your POV but this game needs to be less elite and more attractive to a new population. So many people have left this game for others. They need to be replaced with a new crop of players or the game will die.
So much this.
I get there is probably many military players with adapt & overcome mentality ingrained into them.
But they do not share the same mentality as those filthy dirty casuals that pay the bills.
If the difficulty wall is too steep they will simply say 'screw this' and leave.
Your mission (if you was smart), would be to make a game that was easily approachable for casuals.
But also offered some elite mode stuff to keep the 1% hardcore happy.
Then hardcore players have something to grind their teeth on and we get new boots through the door too.
New boots which will actually stay.
New boots that might even get good enough to join the harcore ranks
I cant wait to see the 0cp campaigns and see if the normal campaigns get emptied.
This will literally be people voting with their feet.Edited by Rune_Relic on August 17, 2015 9:23PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited1 -
WRX✭✭✭✭✭I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
The difference may be somewhat exaggerated but in some cases the disparity between champ points is very real. As you said in a later post, avg new player will have ~80 cp. Average current player has 300+. Their lack of game knowledge paired with their dwarfed stats makes for an uphill battle that many will not want to endure.
Then perhaps they need to reconsider playing an MMO. The grind / learning curve in ESO is significantly less steep than in some other MMOs - people don't seem to realise this.
Please name them.
There are tons from my understanding.I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
The difference may be somewhat exaggerated but in some cases the disparity between champ points is very real. As you said in a later post, avg new player will have ~80 cp. Average current player has 300+. Their lack of game knowledge paired with their dwarfed stats makes for an uphill battle that many will not want to endure.
Then perhaps they need to reconsider playing an MMO. The grind / learning curve in ESO is significantly less steep than in some other MMOs - people don't seem to realise this.
I understand your POV but this game needs to be less elite and more attractive to a new population. So many people have left this game for others. They need to be replaced with a new crop of players or the game will die.
I don't see how this game could be anymore catering towards casual's to be completely honest. Nearly every change they have made for over a year has been made to cater towards casual gameplay. CP is possibly one of the few that helps competitive players, but they will be sure to fix that with the new DLC's.
Decibel GM
GLUB GLUB1 -
sadownik✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
The difference may be somewhat exaggerated but in some cases the disparity between champ points is very real. As you said in a later post, avg new player will have ~80 cp. Average current player has 300+. Their lack of game knowledge paired with their dwarfed stats makes for an uphill battle that many will not want to endure.
Then perhaps they need to reconsider playing an MMO. The grind / learning curve in ESO is significantly less steep than in some other MMOs - people don't seem to realise this.
Please name them.
There are tons from my understanding.I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
The difference may be somewhat exaggerated but in some cases the disparity between champ points is very real. As you said in a later post, avg new player will have ~80 cp. Average current player has 300+. Their lack of game knowledge paired with their dwarfed stats makes for an uphill battle that many will not want to endure.
Then perhaps they need to reconsider playing an MMO. The grind / learning curve in ESO is significantly less steep than in some other MMOs - people don't seem to realise this.
I understand your POV but this game needs to be less elite and more attractive to a new population. So many people have left this game for others. They need to be replaced with a new crop of players or the game will die.
I don't see how this game could be anymore catering towards casual's to be completely honest. Nearly every change they have made for over a year has been made to cater towards casual gameplay. CP is possibly one of the few that helps competitive players, but they will be sure to fix that with the new DLC's.
I playerd all western AAA productions and all new titles are more catch up friendly than ESO with cs.
Is eso catering to casual player? Yes and no.
Yes, because huge part of game is *** easy - because lets be honest single player pve you can do naked.
No, because both pvp and "endgame" pve requres good amount of time put into game.
Champion points are the system that would be good for pve game but even then it would make all content very easy for some players. But with pvp beeing so important especially since IC is comming, system like that, making new players fall so far behind is terrible.
Ofc all above is just my opinion.1 -
k2blader✭✭✭✭✭Personally I don't see this as an issue. I have yet to fight anyone that leaves me wondering "What happened?" . However I am in the 300 cp range.
With that said, aside from the campaign changes they spoke about, Zos also said they were looking at implementing a CP cap per "season" and a much more robust catch-up system, soon (tm).
Personally I think the right answer here is to leave it alone. I don't mind fighting folks with much more cp then myself, it gives me motivation to get more.
The 300 CP range is much further along than a lot of people who are more casual players. I physically can't even gain 3 CP in a day of playing because I simply don't have the time. If I gain 1, I feel good. This isn't a woe is me, but when it comes to PvP combat and battle leveling that is already part of this system, CP should be accounted for as well. If battle leveling didn't exist, and lower level characters were already at a disadvantage, I say the CP advantage as is would work. But that's not the case. Let my VR 14 gear and skills shine too then.
Agree, many people who post on the PvP forums are already past or pretty close to the (magical?) 300 CP mark, so they don't really take the CP issue as seriously as those who feel it most. I play the game for PvP and that is how I've earned and will continue to earn the majority of my CPs (through slow leveling through PvP). I notice with the play time I can get in, I can gain 1 CP every 2-3 nights or so. Assuming this rate stays about the same, in about 6 months I may be able to hit ~160-190 CPs. Not complaining really; just wish folks understood there is a big difference for casual players.
[edit] maths is hard ;-\
If you're playing the game to PvP ( as most of us on these forums do) then you aren't playing if you're only getting one CP every 2-3 days...additionally you're losing enlightened because you're not ever unenlightened.
When enlightened a kill quest turnin is 50k. Tagging a player who dies is 9k. A defensive tick is 8k. If you're not making 400k AP a night in this state then you're not someone this game should be designed aeound, sorry.
The only reason someone shouldn't get 1 CP a night is if they're not playing. Which brings me to my second point.
Getting that second point beyond the first is 4 times harder along with every point after it. Only a handful of people are grinding insane amounts of CP and many of the ones I know who have have burned out and quit the game, or have stopped grinding for the most part....which leads me to my final point.
The same people who are complaining about this massive CP disparity are the same people who accuse others of exploiting, macroing or lagging out every time they die. Some people just can't accept the fact that they lost because of a lack of skill. We all fight people with an absurd competitive advantage over us every day...they're called Emperors. If you're fine with those then you shouldn't have an issue with dying to someone who ground out more CP...just like that Emp ground out more AP. The only reason people have issues with this is their egos.
^ This
It literally takes 30 minutes of pvp with Enlightenment to gain a CP if you group. Or an hour (at worst) if you solo. If you are not seeing results like this you should either rethink your build or playstyle because something is wrong.
And if you don't have 30 minutes to an hour of investment time a day, or 1-2 hours every couple of day etc.. This hobby may not be for you.
Try that during times when there are no groups, EP & DC have nice pop advantages, and AD is busy getting farmed or griping at each other rather than doing anything productive. Let me guess though: you play during prime time, with no consistent pop disadvantage, have no trouble finding a good group/guildmates, and also have a good amount of CPs to give you a decent advantage.
Disabling the grass may improve performance.0 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
The difference may be somewhat exaggerated but in some cases the disparity between champ points is very real. As you said in a later post, avg new player will have ~80 cp. Average current player has 300+. Their lack of game knowledge paired with their dwarfed stats makes for an uphill battle that many will not want to endure.
Then perhaps they need to reconsider playing an MMO. The grind / learning curve in ESO is significantly less steep than in some other MMOs - people don't seem to realise this.
Please name them.
There are tons from my understanding.I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
The difference may be somewhat exaggerated but in some cases the disparity between champ points is very real. As you said in a later post, avg new player will have ~80 cp. Average current player has 300+. Their lack of game knowledge paired with their dwarfed stats makes for an uphill battle that many will not want to endure.
Then perhaps they need to reconsider playing an MMO. The grind / learning curve in ESO is significantly less steep than in some other MMOs - people don't seem to realise this.
I understand your POV but this game needs to be less elite and more attractive to a new population. So many people have left this game for others. They need to be replaced with a new crop of players or the game will die.
I don't see how this game could be anymore catering towards casual's to be completely honest. Nearly every change they have made for over a year has been made to cater towards casual gameplay. CP is possibly one of the few that helps competitive players, but they will be sure to fix that with the new DLC's.
Well, for one, it takes a player with no prior game knowledge a long ass time to get to v14 to do anything. That definitely doesn't cater to a casual player. It's not as if you can just pick up this game and a day later be the best thing since Tom Brady. (Which you shouldn't.) As quickly as all of us may be able to 'grind out' a toon now (2 days, 2h for my blue) - others are at a distinct disadvantage when first starting. It's important to see the game through their eyes as their interest will sustain our gameplay. Without a healthy input/output ratio in population, the game we love will eventually disappear.
As a new player, you don't know people, you don't know to grind instead of quest, you don't know what gear is best and even if you do you may not know crafters. If you do know crafters, you probably can't pay them. You probably can't afford 4k/piece psijic ambrosia. You do like 100's of quests in hopes you'll get there and many never do. The journey to v14 is a dull and easy one, yes, but it is still incredibly tedious.
Finally you get to v14. You have more contacts, you hop into cyrodiil. Maybe in a guild, maybe not. And you likely get rofl stomped. Not only because you may not understand the mechanics of such gameplay, not only because players are infinitely harder than dungeon npcs, but also because these players have:
1) knowledge of reactionary gameplay
2) knowledge of shields, self heals, gapclosers, reflects ect and when to use each
3) stacked stats from sets: also complete with traits like nirnhoned
4) PVP passives- undoubtedly the strongest in the game
5) mastered animation canceling
6) 200-whatever MORE champion points than you - aka more damage, more regen, less damage taken ect ect ect than you
Only one of these things is something you can't catch up on. You can acquire and learn everything listed, but you can't catch up in CP if old pro players are grinding at the same rate.
The point is not to allow new people to come in and be immediately at equal footing with people who have been playing. That would not be fair to those who have honed their skills over the course of a year+. The point is to enact any kind of system that gives new players a shot. The only thing mentioned on that list that seems unfair and growing at an exponential rate is champion points. But they've already said they're looking at catch up methods. For the health of the game, that is what's best. It doesn't help the game to have 500 people who are all really sick it. It helps the game when new players are brought into that fold and the community grows larger. (Provided the servers can handle it.)Edited by Jules on August 17, 2015 10:45PM0 -
JDar✭✭✭✭✭I predict that someone will have 3600 cp by the end of February. And this person will be the biggest loser.Edited by JDar on August 17, 2015 11:01PM3
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VincentBlanquin✭✭✭if we can believe veterans they are here to get competitive fight and not stomping newbies. lets create no cp campaign and we are set. but please SOON and not somewhere at late 2016
Edited by VincentBlanquin on August 17, 2015 11:31PMIrwen Vincinter - Nord - Dragonknight
Irw´en - Bosmer - Nightblade3 -
Xeniph✭✭✭✭✭Personally I don't see this as an issue. I have yet to fight anyone that leaves me wondering "What happened?" . However I am in the 300 cp range.
With that said, aside from the campaign changes they spoke about, Zos also said they were looking at implementing a CP cap per "season" and a much more robust catch-up system, soon (tm).
Personally I think the right answer here is to leave it alone. I don't mind fighting folks with much more cp then myself, it gives me motivation to get more.
The 300 CP range is much further along than a lot of people who are more casual players. I physically can't even gain 3 CP in a day of playing because I simply don't have the time. If I gain 1, I feel good. This isn't a woe is me, but when it comes to PvP combat and battle leveling that is already part of this system, CP should be accounted for as well. If battle leveling didn't exist, and lower level characters were already at a disadvantage, I say the CP advantage as is would work. But that's not the case. Let my VR 14 gear and skills shine too then.
Agree, many people who post on the PvP forums are already past or pretty close to the (magical?) 300 CP mark, so they don't really take the CP issue as seriously as those who feel it most. I play the game for PvP and that is how I've earned and will continue to earn the majority of my CPs (through slow leveling through PvP). I notice with the play time I can get in, I can gain 1 CP every 2-3 nights or so. Assuming this rate stays about the same, in about 6 months I may be able to hit ~160-190 CPs. Not complaining really; just wish folks understood there is a big difference for casual players.
[edit] maths is hard ;-\
If you're playing the game to PvP ( as most of us on these forums do) then you aren't playing if you're only getting one CP every 2-3 days...additionally you're losing enlightened because you're not ever unenlightened.
When enlightened a kill quest turnin is 50k. Tagging a player who dies is 9k. A defensive tick is 8k. If you're not making 400k AP a night in this state then you're not someone this game should be designed aeound, sorry.
The only reason someone shouldn't get 1 CP a night is if they're not playing. Which brings me to my second point.
Getting that second point beyond the first is 4 times harder along with every point after it. Only a handful of people are grinding insane amounts of CP and many of the ones I know who have have burned out and quit the game, or have stopped grinding for the most part....which leads me to my final point.
The same people who are complaining about this massive CP disparity are the same people who accuse others of exploiting, macroing or lagging out every time they die. Some people just can't accept the fact that they lost because of a lack of skill. We all fight people with an absurd competitive advantage over us every day...they're called Emperors. If you're fine with those then you shouldn't have an issue with dying to someone who ground out more CP...just like that Emp ground out more AP. The only reason people have issues with this is their egos.
^ This
It literally takes 30 minutes of pvp with Enlightenment to gain a CP if you group. Or an hour (at worst) if you solo. If you are not seeing results like this you should either rethink your build or playstyle because something is wrong.
And if you don't have 30 minutes to an hour of investment time a day, or 1-2 hours every couple of day etc.. This hobby may not be for you.
Try that during times when there are no groups, EP & DC have nice pop advantages, and AD is busy getting farmed or griping at each other rather than doing anything productive. Let me guess though: you play during prime time, with no consistent pop disadvantage, have no trouble finding a good group/guildmates, and also have a good amount of CPs to give you a decent advantage.
Actually, I pvp solo 99% of the time and play all hours of the day/morning. I have zero issue getting a cp in an hour or less on any server, regardless who is running the map. However I find it easier if the opposition is totally dominating my side.
As I said, 1 enlightened cp is about 30-60 minutes in pvp. You can make that 20 minutes by hitting any place you get exp and solo pve ginding.Edited by Xeniph on August 18, 2015 12:18AMHere since Beta.
Characters: All of them, both Stamina and Magicka.0 -
Lava_Croft✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The idea that Champion Points cater to competitive players is just bonkers. Competitive players like a level playing field, not a playing field where the one grinding the most goblins is the strongest.4 -
WRX✭✭✭✭✭I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
The difference may be somewhat exaggerated but in some cases the disparity between champ points is very real. As you said in a later post, avg new player will have ~80 cp. Average current player has 300+. Their lack of game knowledge paired with their dwarfed stats makes for an uphill battle that many will not want to endure.
Then perhaps they need to reconsider playing an MMO. The grind / learning curve in ESO is significantly less steep than in some other MMOs - people don't seem to realise this.
Please name them.
There are tons from my understanding.I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
The difference may be somewhat exaggerated but in some cases the disparity between champ points is very real. As you said in a later post, avg new player will have ~80 cp. Average current player has 300+. Their lack of game knowledge paired with their dwarfed stats makes for an uphill battle that many will not want to endure.
Then perhaps they need to reconsider playing an MMO. The grind / learning curve in ESO is significantly less steep than in some other MMOs - people don't seem to realise this.
I understand your POV but this game needs to be less elite and more attractive to a new population. So many people have left this game for others. They need to be replaced with a new crop of players or the game will die.
I don't see how this game could be anymore catering towards casual's to be completely honest. Nearly every change they have made for over a year has been made to cater towards casual gameplay. CP is possibly one of the few that helps competitive players, but they will be sure to fix that with the new DLC's.
Well, for one, it takes a player with no prior game knowledge a long ass time to get to v14 to do anything. That definitely doesn't cater to a casual player. It's not as if you can just pick up this game and a day later be the best thing since Tom Brady. (Which you shouldn't.) As quickly as all of us may be able to 'grind out' a toon now (2 days, 2h for my blue) - others are at a distinct disadvantage when first starting. It's important to see the game through their eyes as their interest will sustain our gameplay. Without a healthy input/output ratio in population, the game we love will eventually disappear.
As a new player, you don't know people, you don't know to grind instead of quest, you don't know what gear is best and even if you do you may not know crafters. If you do know crafters, you probably can't pay them. You probably can't afford 4k/piece psijic ambrosia. You do like 100's of quests in hopes you'll get there and many never do. The journey to v14 is a dull and easy one, yes, but it is still incredibly tedious.
Finally you get to v14. You have more contacts, you hop into cyrodiil. Maybe in a guild, maybe not. And you likely get rofl stomped. Not only because you may not understand the mechanics of such gameplay, not only because players are infinitely harder than dungeon npcs, but also because these players have:
1) knowledge of reactionary gameplay
2) knowledge of shields, self heals, gapclosers, reflects ect and when to use each
3) stacked stats from sets: also complete with traits like nirnhoned
4) PVP passives- undoubtedly the strongest in the game
5) mastered animation canceling
6) 200-whatever MORE champion points than you - aka more damage, more regen, less damage taken ect ect ect than you
Only one of these things is something you can't catch up on. You can acquire and learn everything listed, but you can't catch up in CP if old pro players are grinding at the same rate.
The point is not to allow new people to come in and be immediately at equal footing with people who have been playing. That would not be fair to those who have honed their skills over the course of a year+. The point is to enact any kind of system that gives new players a shot. The only thing mentioned on that list that seems unfair and growing at an exponential rate is champion points. But they've already said they're looking at catch up methods. For the health of the game, that is what's best. It doesn't help the game to have 500 people who are all really sick it. It helps the game when new players are brought into that fold and the community grows larger. (Provided the servers can handle it.)
I mean, you seemed to hint at this, but every point you brought up is just like every other MMO, with the exception of CP. Which as I said, temporarily favors more hardcore players. However with the catch up system (whatever that may be) and diminishing returns, it won't make much difference anyways.
What can not be denied is the constant catering to casuals and severe nerfing to tactics and skills that benefited the best players in this game. Doing this, and at the same time not offering any alternatives to these players. Its been happening for as long as I can remember. This game has become about stacking in a tight ball, reducing player damage (wut?!), spam shields, and bring more players than the others.
The game play I see today, would of been wiped by 8 people easy this time last year. And the population was much healthier at this time. Insane amount of competitive PvE guilds, and a large amount of PvP guilds as well. 3-4 campaigns full at once, plus many more with decent population. I can name you probably 50 players fairly easily, that just I know alone, that left the game due to game changes. I have yet to meet someone who came back or decided to join this game because it was "user friendly".
In my opinion ESO would struggle to cater anymore to casual gameplay. Most experienced PvP players who PvP'd in other games would have no issue picking up numbers 1-5. And if they had no experience prior, then this is a pretty good game to start on for reasons mentioned above and the severe lack of hardcore players.
Decibel GM
GLUB GLUB1 -
asneakybanana✭✭✭✭✭I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
The difference may be somewhat exaggerated but in some cases the disparity between champ points is very real. As you said in a later post, avg new player will have ~80 cp. Average current player has 300+. Their lack of game knowledge paired with their dwarfed stats makes for an uphill battle that many will not want to endure.
Then perhaps they need to reconsider playing an MMO. The grind / learning curve in ESO is significantly less steep than in some other MMOs - people don't seem to realise this.
Please name them.
There are tons from my understanding.I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
The difference may be somewhat exaggerated but in some cases the disparity between champ points is very real. As you said in a later post, avg new player will have ~80 cp. Average current player has 300+. Their lack of game knowledge paired with their dwarfed stats makes for an uphill battle that many will not want to endure.
Then perhaps they need to reconsider playing an MMO. The grind / learning curve in ESO is significantly less steep than in some other MMOs - people don't seem to realise this.
I understand your POV but this game needs to be less elite and more attractive to a new population. So many people have left this game for others. They need to be replaced with a new crop of players or the game will die.
I don't see how this game could be anymore catering towards casual's to be completely honest. Nearly every change they have made for over a year has been made to cater towards casual gameplay. CP is possibly one of the few that helps competitive players, but they will be sure to fix that with the new DLC's.
Totally agree with this. Honestly can't think of the last time a patch came out that helped the serious players both in pve and pvp. Maybe you weren't really around the pvp area when the game first came out but there were well trained and extremely organized and knowledgeable players and groups that owned the game. Look at Nicolle and fixate. The 2 of them could pretty much solo a zerg during wabba 1. Look at the original alacrity core with cas and metal and Reese and all them, 12 of them could pretty much hold a keep forever vs almost any size of zerg. But aoe caps, removal of ground oils, removal of camps, and nerfs to every zerg buster skill has greatly made the game more casual and turned it from a skill game to a number game since we don't have efficient ways to kill 70 people fast enough before they force flip flags.
Edit: BTW this was targeted more at juies than at you, wrx, your post just fit what I wanted to agree with betterEdited by asneakybanana on August 18, 2015 10:50AMAsneakybanana AD DK Former emperor of Chrysamere and Chillrend. World first hardmode Hel'ra and Quake con winner (Alliance rank 25)Sweat Squad
Asneakyhabenero EP DK Former emperor of Thornblade, Haderus. World first vMA Dk clear (Alliance rank 39)
Asneakycucumber EP Sorc Former empress of Blackwater Bay and Trueflame (Alliance rank 32)
Asneakypineapple EP Temp Former empress of Azuras Star and Haderus (Alliance rank 22)
Asneakypickle EP NB Former empress of Trueflame (Alliance rank 47)
Crowned 27x on 12 different campaign cycles | 200M+ AP earned
Fastest AA clear ever: 5:42 | Fastest HRC clear ever: 5:27 | NA first HM MoL
609k Mag Sorc vMA
NA first Tick Tock Tormentor
NA first trinity (All No Death/HM/Speed run trials titles)
2x Tick Tock Tormentor0 -
Soulac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm at 500cp right now, another 300cp would boost my healing alone by over 20%, give me some nice stat increase and also two really strong passives.
If you're interested I can show you all current stat formulas..R.I.P Dawnbreaker / Auriel´s Bow
Member of the Arena Guild and the overpowered Banana Squad.
Nathaerizh aka Cat - Nightblade V16 - EU
- Meow -3 -
sadownik✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm at 500cp right now, another 300cp would boost my healing alone by over 20%, give me some nice stat increase and also two really strong passives.
If you're interested I can show you all current stat formulas..
Dont bother, you wont convince people to admit that cp's do give a big advantage. Whatever you will show it will always be "marginal".3 -
Psilent✭✭✭✭✭I get on average about 3 CP a day; 1 of those CP from enlightenment.
Yesterday my group fought a guy that is rumored to have around 1600 CP. Let's just say this; he was tougher to take down than any Emperor we faced. The Emperor of the campaign was much easier for us to kill than this guy! We ended up having to drain his stamina down to the point where he couldn't break free of CC, smack him with CC, then a stone treb to the face, followed with executes. This doesn't include people getting hit for 18.5k attacks while we're trying to kill him.3 -
VincentBlanquin✭✭✭its easy get first CP in a day, but pretty hard for casual to get the second. good catch up mechanic should be be enlightenment for more than one CPIrwen Vincinter - Nord - Dragonknight
Irw´en - Bosmer - Nightblade0 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
The difference may be somewhat exaggerated but in some cases the disparity between champ points is very real. As you said in a later post, avg new player will have ~80 cp. Average current player has 300+. Their lack of game knowledge paired with their dwarfed stats makes for an uphill battle that many will not want to endure.
Then perhaps they need to reconsider playing an MMO. The grind / learning curve in ESO is significantly less steep than in some other MMOs - people don't seem to realise this.
Please name them.
There are tons from my understanding.I have 407 CP, and yet sometimes I still die to completely nubs who definitely do not have more CP than me. Why? Because I make mistakes. I have fought people who I know have 800+ CP and they still die. Why? Because they make mistakes or they are just scrubs who spend all of their time PvE grinding rather than honing their PvP skills.
In duels and pre-planned 1v1s CP undoubtedly a significant factor, but in the normal open world of Cyrodiil I think the influence of CP is grossly over exaggerated by people looking for an excuse for them being... Well... Bad.
In any case, I work full time in a pretty demanding job and spend most of my game time doing what I enjoy (PvP). I have a decent amount of CP - if I can do it then anyone can.
The difference may be somewhat exaggerated but in some cases the disparity between champ points is very real. As you said in a later post, avg new player will have ~80 cp. Average current player has 300+. Their lack of game knowledge paired with their dwarfed stats makes for an uphill battle that many will not want to endure.
Then perhaps they need to reconsider playing an MMO. The grind / learning curve in ESO is significantly less steep than in some other MMOs - people don't seem to realise this.
I understand your POV but this game needs to be less elite and more attractive to a new population. So many people have left this game for others. They need to be replaced with a new crop of players or the game will die.
I don't see how this game could be anymore catering towards casual's to be completely honest. Nearly every change they have made for over a year has been made to cater towards casual gameplay. CP is possibly one of the few that helps competitive players, but they will be sure to fix that with the new DLC's.
Well, for one, it takes a player with no prior game knowledge a long ass time to get to v14 to do anything. That definitely doesn't cater to a casual player. It's not as if you can just pick up this game and a day later be the best thing since Tom Brady. (Which you shouldn't.) As quickly as all of us may be able to 'grind out' a toon now (2 days, 2h for my blue) - others are at a distinct disadvantage when first starting. It's important to see the game through their eyes as their interest will sustain our gameplay. Without a healthy input/output ratio in population, the game we love will eventually disappear.
As a new player, you don't know people, you don't know to grind instead of quest, you don't know what gear is best and even if you do you may not know crafters. If you do know crafters, you probably can't pay them. You probably can't afford 4k/piece psijic ambrosia. You do like 100's of quests in hopes you'll get there and many never do. The journey to v14 is a dull and easy one, yes, but it is still incredibly tedious.
Finally you get to v14. You have more contacts, you hop into cyrodiil. Maybe in a guild, maybe not. And you likely get rofl stomped. Not only because you may not understand the mechanics of such gameplay, not only because players are infinitely harder than dungeon npcs, but also because these players have:
1) knowledge of reactionary gameplay
2) knowledge of shields, self heals, gapclosers, reflects ect and when to use each
3) stacked stats from sets: also complete with traits like nirnhoned
4) PVP passives- undoubtedly the strongest in the game
5) mastered animation canceling
6) 200-whatever MORE champion points than you - aka more damage, more regen, less damage taken ect ect ect than you
Only one of these things is something you can't catch up on. You can acquire and learn everything listed, but you can't catch up in CP if old pro players are grinding at the same rate.
The point is not to allow new people to come in and be immediately at equal footing with people who have been playing. That would not be fair to those who have honed their skills over the course of a year+. The point is to enact any kind of system that gives new players a shot. The only thing mentioned on that list that seems unfair and growing at an exponential rate is champion points. But they've already said they're looking at catch up methods. For the health of the game, that is what's best. It doesn't help the game to have 500 people who are all really sick it. It helps the game when new players are brought into that fold and the community grows larger. (Provided the servers can handle it.)
I mean, you seemed to hint at this, but every point you brought up is just like every other MMO, with the exception of CP. Which as I said, temporarily favors more hardcore players. However with the catch up system (whatever that may be) and diminishing returns, it won't make much difference anyways.
What can not be denied is the constant catering to casuals and severe nerfing to tactics and skills that benefited the best players in this game. Doing this, and at the same time not offering any alternatives to these players. Its been happening for as long as I can remember. This game has become about stacking in a tight ball, reducing player damage (wut?!), spam shields, and bring more players than the others.
The game play I see today, would of been wiped by 8 people easy this time last year. And the population was much healthier at this time. Insane amount of competitive PvE guilds, and a large amount of PvP guilds as well. 3-4 campaigns full at once, plus many more with decent population. I can name you probably 50 players fairly easily, that just I know alone, that left the game due to game changes. I have yet to meet someone who came back or decided to join this game because it was "user friendly".
In my opinion ESO would struggle to cater anymore to casual gameplay. Most experienced PvP players who PvP'd in other games would have no issue picking up numbers 1-5. And if they had no experience prior, then this is a pretty good game to start on for reasons mentioned above and the severe lack of hardcore players.
I mean, fair enough. No one is preaching that the game should be in a constant state of carebear. Or that the "bring more numbers to the fight" mentality is healthy, or even fun. It's actually terrible, and the lags just compounds that and makes the game unplayable at times. I believe that competition breeds higher skill levels so I understand your desire for more outlets to do this through. CP is one of the only advantages that an experienced player has against a blob of inexperienced players, so I see your POV.
In order the game to be successful, it really needs to be balanced in almost impossible ways. It needs to cater to new and inexperienced players in order to attract population, but at the same time it needs to cater to its veteran players and be competitive and challenging. Regardless of which way the pendulum swings, one side of the spectrum suffers. If the game is targeted entirely at satisfying veteran players, new players are deterred from starting up and the community suffers for it. If the game is too intent on catering to new players, skillful veteran players get bored and/or frustrated and leave the game, and the community suffers for it. It's not going to be an easy balance to strike.
My main concern atm is new players feeling that the odds against them are insurmountable. I want more (PC) players to play this game, to hone their skills and to bolster the community. I want new players who have the potential to be good to also have the means of being competitive against old players. This way we can continue to play and grow.
I understand the points made by you and @asneakybanana about all of the Zerg busting mechanics being removed and agree with you. I think that skill should be able to wipe numbers but in the current meta, it doesn't happen this way. I think the removal of things like ground oils and the addition of things like prox det incentivize zerging and there are little to no counters to this. That is a problem. And these issues are interrelated. As a community we need to communicate these frustrations to ZOS. Whether they choose to adhere to them is their choice and we will see, going forward, which direction this game goes in.
I guess my overall tl,dr point is that it's adventitious to be able to see things from contrasting points of view. And as much as this game is suffering now, it will suffer in different and yet equal ways if it doesn't have a steady stream of new players to replace the burnt out vet ones.0 -
VincentBlanquin✭✭✭that is the problem, the only chance weakers are not slaughtered by veterans in two seconds is to fight them in bigger numbers (blobing). so maybe when power creep will be lower (as it looks like it would), maybe it lower incetives of creating zergsEdited by VincentBlanquin on August 18, 2015 8:44PMIrwen Vincinter - Nord - Dragonknight
Irw´en - Bosmer - Nightblade0 -
MaximillianDiE✭✭✭✭I logged on in New Zealand time (which is 2 hours US Pacific time -2 and within Oceanic primetime) last night to find a handful of blues had painted Azura's blue, reds had night capped Haderus with no population at all left on it or any of the other servers. Off US primetime we were down to 2 bars of blue on AS with 1 bar on the population of every single population on AS and all other servers. Even BWB was 2 EP, 2 AD and 1 DC so people haven't flocked to pvp on alts. The pvp population for this game has definitely haemorrhaged in off mainstream hours from where not all that long ago we had locked populations to practically no population. Whilst lag is definitely a huge factor, as is the changed meta which favours zerg balls over small skilled group play, it's no coincidence that the population has dropped off so drastically since 1.6 and the introduction of CP which has led to a real and noticeable power gap between players. I mean they even dropped the sub and went free to play as well so even ZOS must be able to see that population loss under those circumstances means all is not well in Cyrodill.
As I've already said elsewhere in this thead, IMO - CP is a massive barrier to getting new players to stay or the old player base to return which really is the only way to stop the population from leaving. Going free to play should have removed a massive barrier to both player retention and people coming back from time to time to check the game out again, however clearly it hasn't worked so its definitely time for ZOS to take a good look at what's stopping that and you'd have to be blind if CP power creep isn't right up there needing fixing for the health of the game. This isn't about making the game any more casual - god knows I'd love to see ground oils, ulti pre 1.5 and the like back, however from my perspective its now simply about having no one left to play with or against during my play hours - both of which are critical for me continuing to log in myself.
Maximillian Die Caesar - DC - [K-Hole] RetiredRetiredMaximillian AD [[DiE]3 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Imho the problem is not the CP point difference rather than CPs not having diminishing returns past 25 to 30 points invested. If the first 30 points would give 70% of the obtainable bonus the system would not be so appealing to grind grind grind grind grind...
Sidenote: Anyone talking about a cap at 300 CP now is being delusional. They would screw over ALL of their hardcore playerbase with a cap that low. If they care for the pc playerbase at all they´ll have to introduce different caps for pc/console with pc being around 50% of the current max (so around 650 to 800 cp).<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Charadras✭✭Zos fail when thet don't create Seasons. Patch 1.6 = season 1 = max cp 360. Patch 1.7 = season 2 = max cp 720 and like this For 10 seasons. But it's Too hard to think in this way. Just let People exploit and make hundred of cp.
War Inc - EU
Gilda Italiana PVP
Apply su www.warinccommunity.com/forum
Charadras DK vr 14 - Ebonheart Pact0 -
Tripe✭✭✭The CP system is one of the reasons that has caused me to lose interest in this game. To add to what has already been stated by others, I think the CP system also makes class and skill balance much less manageable.3 -
Xiphyla✭✭✭Zos fail when thet don't create Seasons. Patch 1.6 = season 1 = max cp 360. Patch 1.7 = season 2 = max cp 720 and like this For 10 seasons. But it's Too hard to think in this way. Just let People exploit and make hundred of cp.
Zos should have put seasons like what u said but too bad they didn't.
AD : DiE (Inactive)
DC : K-hole (Inactive)
EP : ZDM (Inactive)
Await4camelotunchained.0 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Actually, they fail if they make seasons. A cap at 720 for IC patch will be impossible to achieve for a player joining at that time in the time one of these seasons run. A major update is 4 months according to their new business plan. Even 6 months (to accommodate for possible delays) is not enough.Zos fail when thet don't create Seasons. Patch 1.6 = season 1 = max cp 360. Patch 1.7 = season 2 = max cp 720 and like this For 10 seasons. But it's Too hard to think in this way. Just let People exploit and make hundred of cp.
A player starting at season three (Orsinium) would have to gain 1080 points within 4 to 6 months.
Stop being selfish. Caps help those that are a bit behind right now, and only those. The only way to retain a healthy system is an intelligent catch-up mechanism. If you want to contribute to the discussion, think about how that could be done. Stop selfishly promoting the CpCapCrap.
NB: Sorry for picking your quote for the rant, @Charadras, but your comment was recent. It applies also and especially to this thread as a whole.Edited by Leandor on August 19, 2015 9:20AM0 -
QuebraRegra✭✭✭✭✭
✭I ran across this in a related discussion:
Edited by QuebraRegra on August 19, 2015 9:30AM0
