Is it intended, that the Thief stone grants 12% crit chance ?

Dracane · August 2015

I was surprised when I activated the Thief Mundus stone. It grants me 12% crit chance, in 1.6 it was 5% crit chance.
Sadly we cannot read the first patchnotes of 1.7 anymore to see, if we increased its value.
Because 12% seems a bit.... too good ?

Paulington · August 2015

The 2.0 patch notes on Mundus stones:

Mundus Stones

Apprentice: This Mundus Stone now grants Spell Power instead of Spell Penetration.
Ritual: Increased the healing bonus from this Mundus Stone to 10% from 5%.
Serpent: This Mundus Stone now increases your stamina regeneration instead of health regeneration.
Shadow: Increased the critical damage bonus from this Mundus Stone to 12% from 10%.
Warrior: This Mundus Stone now has more Weapon Damage.

Nothing about The Thief that I can find. Maybe it's an undocumented change?

Dracane · August 2015

Paulington wrote: »

The 2.0 patch notes on Mundus stones:

Mundus Stones

Apprentice: This Mundus Stone now grants Spell Power instead of Spell Penetration.
Ritual: Increased the healing bonus from this Mundus Stone to 10% from 5%.
Serpent: This Mundus Stone now increases your stamina regeneration instead of health regeneration.
Shadow: Increased the critical damage bonus from this Mundus Stone to 12% from 10%.
Warrior: This Mundus Stone now has more Weapon Damage.

Nothing about The Thief that I can find. Maybe it's an undocumented change?

That's how I remember it either, the Shadow was increased to 12%. But nothing about the Thief.
I would dare to say, this is a bug. 12% seems way too much in my opinion.
If it's intended, then I gladly accept it

but from 5% to 12% is quite huge.

Altyrann · August 2015

If you assume a base crit % of 50%, then the shadow mind is (ignoring other effects) takes your damage from 50% + (50% x 150%), giving 125% to 50% + (50% x 162%), giving 131%. This represents a 4.8% increase.

The thief takes you from the same base 125% to (50% - x%) + ((50% + x%) x 150%). For this to give an equivalent 4.8% damage increase, the thief needs to give a 12% crit bonus.

Basically, because it is multiplicative, if both increases are the same you should aim to increase whichever is lower out of your crit% or your bonus damage on crit%.

Dracane · August 2015

Altyrann wrote: »

If you assume a base crit % of 50%, then the shadow mind is (ignoring other effects) takes your damage from 50% + (50% x 150%), giving 125% to 50% + (50% x 162%), giving 131%. This represents a 4.8% increase.

The thief takes you from the same base 125% to (50% - x%) + ((50% + x%) x 150%). For this to give an equivalent 4.8% damage increase, the thief needs to give a 12% crit bonus.

Basically, because it is multiplicative, if both increases are the same you should aim to increase whichever is lower out of your crit% or your bonus damage on crit%.

I'm fine with this

If this change is intended.
Makes it a pretty good Mundus stone.

ADarklore · August 2015

According to the original 1.7 notes posted here.... there was never supposed to be ANY change to Thief. Shadow went from 10% to 12% Crit Damage, but nothing mentioned about Thief.

lifefrombelowb14_ESO · August 2015

Just out of curiosity how many CPs do you have slotted in the far right blue sign? Because one of the passives there grants 12% crit%

Dracane · August 2015

lifefrombelowb14_ESO wrote: »

Just out of curiosity how many CPs do you have slotted in the far right blue sign? Because one of the passives there grants 12% crit%

You mean the ritual ? 22 into Traumathurge or how this is spelled.
Believe me, the thief grants 12% crit

ADarklore · August 2015

So this, then, was one of those STEALTH buffs that we've been seeing appear in other places? Something they didn't want to mention in patch notes for fear of a backlash like they saw when they tried to buff Altmer and Bosmer racial passives?

I have also heard that the Apprentice, which will change from Spell Penetration to Spell Damage, does actually worse damage than when it was Spell Penetration- can anyone confirm this? I find it odd that they say they are 'buffing all other Mundus stones to make it a viable alternative to the top two'- and yet can't even run the numbers to figure out that their changes aren't even on par with that they're replacing?!? If Apprentice with new Spell Damage isn't even equal to what was offered with Spell Penetration, how can they think it would be an "alternative" to the Mage?

hrothbern · August 2015

It could be that the 12% now in Thief was mixed up by the coding people with the 12% of the Shadow. What do coding people know/understand of the difference betweem Crit chance and Crit damage....

BUT I DO think that 12% Crit chance is very well balanced compared to many other Mundus stone effects

Dracane · August 2015

ADarklore wrote: »

So this, then, was one of those STEALTH buffs that we've been seeing appear in other places? Something they didn't want to mention in patch notes for fear of a backlash like they saw when they tried to buff Altmer and Bosmer racial passives?

I have also heard that the Apprentice, which will change from Spell Penetration to Spell Damage, does actually worse damage than when it was Spell Penetration- can anyone confirm this? I find it odd that they say they are 'buffing all other Mundus stones to make it a viable alternative to the top two'- and yet can't even run the numbers to figure out that their changes aren't even on par with that they're replacing?!? If Apprentice with new Spell Damage isn't even equal to what was offered with Spell Penetration, how can they think it would be an "alternative" to the Mage?

The Apprentice IS worse.

It used to be so op actually, so much stronger than the Mage. It is still slightly stronger than the mage, but the gap is not that big anymore.

hrothbern wrote: »

BUT I DO think that 12% Crit chance is very well balanced compared to many other Mundus stone effects

Yes, I think it's fine either. Crits in pvp are situational, because blocks and such things make crits impossible.

ADarklore · August 2015

hrothbern wrote: »

It could be that the 12% now in Thief was mixed up by the coding people with the 12% of the Shadow. What do coding people know/understand of the difference betweem Crit chance and Crit damage....

Does the Shadow not provide 12% Crit Damage on PTS? Perhaps they put both of them up to 12%, with the Thief just "accidentally" not being mentioned. I thought it was interesting that in ESO Live Eric said that ALL Mundus stones, other than the two top, would receive a buff... yet when the Update notes came out, only five of them were mentioned as having changes.

hrothbern · August 2015

ADarklore wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

It could be that the 12% now in Thief was mixed up by the coding people with the 12% of the Shadow. What do coding people know/understand of the difference betweem Crit chance and Crit damage....

Does the Shadow not provide 12% Crit Damage on PTS? Perhaps they put both of them up to 12%, with the Thief just "accidentally" not being mentioned. I thought it was interesting that in ESO Live Eric said that ALL Mundus stones, other than the two top, would receive a buff... yet when the Update notes came out, only five of them were mentioned as having changes.

very true !
I also wondered when only 5 got mentioned... Also because some were out of balance to the other Mundus Stones & the (5 items) set bonus.

ADarklore · August 2015

Well they nerfed crafted set Spell Damage and Weapon Damage by 30% and some say Crit% was hit as well... it really sucks for those who were using multiple 2-pc sets as it is a loss of 30% PER set pc... which is pretty significant. So perhaps ZOS is buffing the Mundus stones to help offset the crafted set reduction- which is something at least... although, in the end, for some player builds it will only result in breaking even.

ZOS_GinaBruno · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

I was surprised when I activated the Thief Mundus stone. It grants me 12% crit chance, in 1.6 it was 5% crit chance.
Sadly we cannot read the first patchnotes of 1.7 anymore to see, if we increased its value.
Because 12% seems a bit.... too good ?

This is intended, but we are looking at potentially tweaking it a bit.

Dracane · August 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I was surprised when I activated the Thief Mundus stone. It grants me 12% crit chance, in 1.6 it was 5% crit chance.
Sadly we cannot read the first patchnotes of 1.7 anymore to see, if we increased its value.
Because 12% seems a bit.... too good ?

This is intended, but we are looking at potentially tweaking it a bit.

Thanks you for letting us know. I don't think it's too much crit chance after thinking about it, I was confused, because I suddenly had more crit chance than usual and didn't know where it came from.

GTech_1 · August 2015

Heya @ZOS_GinaBruno
While these are being looked at, could we have the UI team add the mundus stone buff values (the actual numbers) to the mouse-over "Active Effects" tooltip on the character sheet?

Wrobel said, in an ESO live, that "The Lady" mundus was the most frequently used. Since that resulted in a resounding "What?!" from the devs and the community, figuring out why is very important.
My thought is: The main reason *may* be because the majority of the player base may not even know what these mundus buffs do. More info goes a long way.

Food for thought,
~GTech_1

ADarklore · August 2015

GTech_1 wrote: »

Wrobel said, in an ESO live, that "The Lady" mundus was the most frequently used. Since that resulted in a resounding "What?!" from the devs and the community, figuring out why is very important.
My thought is: The main reason *may* be because the majority of the player base may not even know what these mundus buffs do. More info goes a long way.

In that same ESO Live, Eric stated that they discovered the reason The Lady Mundus was the most frequently used and it is simply because it is the first stone that players encounter and many of them don't bother to change it later. I agree that more info about exactly what stats each Mundus actually provides would be beneficial- but it also goes to show that many players don't bother doing any research into their builds to even ask "what is this?" You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

@ZOS_GinaBruno I don't think the Crit% on Thief is too extreme, and it will allow those who focus on Crits to change their builds a bit if they wish. Just my thoughts on the topic.

And Thank you for commenting on this.

Tyr · August 2015

GTech_1 wrote: »

Heya @ZOS_GinaBruno
While these are being looked at, could we have the UI team add the mundus stone buff values (the actual numbers) to the mouse-over "Active Effects" tooltip on the character sheet?

Wrobel said, in an ESO live, that "The Lady" mundus was the most frequently used. Since that resulted in a resounding "What?!" from the devs and the community, figuring out why is very important.
My thought is: The main reason *may* be because the majority of the player base may not even know what these mundus buffs do. More info goes a long way.

Food for thought,
~GTech_1

It's obvious why Lady is the most used. It's the first one you encounter in every starter zone, and because the casual player either doesn't ever get to the point where more armor isn't useful, or doesn't understand that armor is less useful, they never bother to change their mundus stone.

Ishammael · August 2015

Tyr wrote: »

GTech_1 wrote: »

Heya @ZOS_GinaBruno
While these are being looked at, could we have the UI team add the mundus stone buff values (the actual numbers) to the mouse-over "Active Effects" tooltip on the character sheet?

Wrobel said, in an ESO live, that "The Lady" mundus was the most frequently used. Since that resulted in a resounding "What?!" from the devs and the community, figuring out why is very important.
My thought is: The main reason *may* be because the majority of the player base may not even know what these mundus buffs do. More info goes a long way.

Food for thought,
~GTech_1

It's obvious why Lady is the most used. It's the first one you encounter in every starter zone, and because the casual player either doesn't ever get to the point where more armor isn't useful, or doesn't understand that armor is less useful, they never bother to change their mundus stone.

... and this is also why the stat that "Lady is most used" is a ridiculous metric. How many characters are created and left at low level?

ADarklore · August 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

... and this is also why the stat that "Lady is most used" is a ridiculous metric. How many characters are created and left at low level?

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. The fact that the Lady is the most used, and the reason why, is the reason they didn't factor that into their Mundus stone equation. The top two 'most used' stones are The Mage and The Tower I believe- and those are not being adjusted, while all the other stones would receive some buff to try to bring them in line with the top two.

hrothbern · August 2015

ADarklore wrote: »

GTech_1 wrote: »

Wrobel said, in an ESO live, that "The Lady" mundus was the most frequently used. Since that resulted in a resounding "What?!" from the devs and the community, figuring out why is very important.
My thought is: The main reason *may* be because the majority of the player base may not even know what these mundus buffs do. More info goes a long way.

In that same ESO Live, Eric stated that they discovered the reason The Lady Mundus was the most frequently used and it is simply because it is the first stone that players encounter and many of them don't bother to change it later. I agree that more info about exactly what stats each Mundus actually provides would be beneficial- but it also goes to show that many players don't bother doing any research into their builds to even ask "what is this?" You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

@ZOS_GinaBruno I don't think the Crit% on Thief is too extreme, and it will allow those who focus on Crits to change their builds a bit if they wish. Just my thoughts on the topic. And Thank you for commenting on this.

Why wonder about such "bad" choices
....garbage IN, garbage OUT

The explicit filosophy to keep the game as intuitive and immersive as possible....
and NOT informative, better tooltips....
and NOT extended A4 tooltips one click mined down...
and NOT her own basic addon system....
and NOT a figure driven dashboard leading to micro management
also to satisfy a lot of casual players
is really great to play

but does have her negatives

It separates the player base in:

the ones that DO research, DO time intensive testing, and DO have Addon's and DO find the bugs & exploits
the ones that do many suboptimal choices and are being pushed aside as a kind of losers, not with evil intention but as a natural process whereby cutting edge PVP dictates the agenda

Think of it:
To perform optimal in PVP, it is better that there are many bugs & exploits !!!!
many info confusions !!!,
because that makes it easier to win from normal law abiding citizens that want to trust the tool tips and the good intentions.

I think the filosophy to keep the game as intuitive and immersive as possible is great

but we must realise that we need to keep the whole family together:
ZOS should get more transparency for the casuals,
improve tool tips AND live up to them: get the bugs out of the way

ADarklore · August 2015

I do agree that the tooltip issues NEED TO BE addressed. Is it really so difficult to have someone go over each item and verify that what it SAYS in the tooltips is actually what it DOES? I believe most companies consider this a normal practice of quality control.

Ezareth · August 2015

12% crit is far more powerful than 12% increase to crit damage.

It should be at most 8% if balanced against crit damage.

Don't forget there are a ton of synergies with a player getting a crit in the game as well.

Rune_Relic · August 2015

ADarklore wrote: »

I do agree that the tooltip issues NEED TO BE addressed. Is it really so difficult to have someone go over each item and verify that what it SAYS in the tooltips is actually what it DOES? I believe most companies consider this a normal practice of quality control.

What does "quality control" mean ?
Is that something to do with customer complaints

Pyr0xyrecuprotite · August 2015

All data for nonvet characters should be ignored, re which mundus stone is used. Think of all the bank mule characters, most of them at low level... yes of course they would have the Lady active - those alts have not discovered the higher level zone mundus stones yet...

cschwingeb14_ESO · August 2015

12% crit is a 6-8% buff to damage, depending on crit damage. Seems a little high, considering that +1280 stamina is around à 3%-5% buff to stamina damage only

However, it's less good in PvP, as the crit reduction champ node is far more powerful than the crit damage passive. Also, no crits against shields, and auto-crit attacks (crit rush and from-stealth) get no benefit from this. Oh, and the self-heal on getting crit passive works against this too

5% is too low, but 8-10% would be about right

Oh, and you can search Reddit for the older Patch notes. Dominoid always copies them there

Emma_Overload · August 2015

Thief needs to be at least 10% to compete with the new Apprentice mundus stone, which will increase your damage by around 5% or more, depending on how many Divine traits you are wearing.

Xantaria · August 2015

Just looking at the math. When you have a crit chance of 50% and a multiplier of 150% (base values) the 12% crit from Thief is exactly the same as 12% crit damage. That is due to shadow finally working correctly and increasing the whole dmg of the critical strike by 12% and not just the extra dmg you gain from critting. on PTS both mundus stones are very equivalent. The better choice will be Shadow if you have >50% crit and it will be Thief if you have <50% crit. There is no reason to change this, I think it's working fine.

Ludof · August 2015

Xantaria wrote: »

Just looking at the math. When you have a crit chance of 50% and a multiplier of 150% (base values) the 12% crit from Thief is exactly the same as 12% crit damage. That is due to shadow finally working correctly and increasing the whole dmg of the critical strike by 12% and not just the extra dmg you gain from critting. on PTS both mundus stones are very equivalent. The better choice will be Shadow if you have >50% crit and it will be Thief if you have <50% crit. There is no reason to change this, I think it's working fine.

Totally Agree.
Finally almost all Mundus will be balanced and usefull.
I'm still puzzled over The Lady, The Lover and The Steed;
is anyone going to use them ?

hrothbern · August 2015

Ludof wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

Just looking at the math. When you have a crit chance of 50% and a multiplier of 150% (base values) the 12% crit from Thief is exactly the same as 12% crit damage. That is due to shadow finally working correctly and increasing the whole dmg of the critical strike by 12% and not just the extra dmg you gain from critting. on PTS both mundus stones are very equivalent. The better choice will be Shadow if you have >50% crit and it will be Thief if you have <50% crit. There is no reason to change this, I think it's working fine.

Totally Agree.
Finally almost all Mundus will be balanced and usefull.
I'm still puzzled over The Lady, The Lover and The Steed;
is anyone going to use them ?

The Lady and the Lover at the current values make no sense to use.
You do not even need to be a master in Math to come to that judgment.
The 1280 is lower...., yes lower.... than the 1867 of an item 2,3,4 benefit of an armor set.
AND Mundus Stone benefits should be roughly between 1.5 and 2.0 times that value

So perhaps ZOS will do a proper Math on what value armor resist and spell resist they should have compared to the other Mundus Stones.
I would guess between 2700 and 3600 :-)