Attacking from Stealth Should Give 0 Bonus Damage

Soulac · August 2015

Ishammael · August 2015

blabafat wrote: »

Contrary to the majority of people's opinion..

I agree. The bonus of stealth should be stealth itself.

Thanks! There is one!

Ishammael · August 2015

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

1) sneaking takes time and preparation
2) it takes patience waiting for a target
3) when people aren't paying attention their defenses aren't up
4) in real life when people sneak up and attack others, like how Ish goes about getting women back to his basement apartment, it's easier to do it when they aren't suspecting; like in a dark alley where the woman parked her car after work (just ask Ish)

Who told you about the women in my basement?!

Ishammael · August 2015

eNumbra wrote: »

I was serious when I said it the first time. Get out.

Stealth damage bonuses are a staple of not only the Elder scrolls series but every fantasy/RPG series in existence. Their trade off is reduced survivability/sustainability compared to other classes, especially when given the ability to stack damage on the opening shot.

Even if Zenimax were in the market to listen to such an outrageous suggestion, it is unlikely they would so patently kill the nightblade class by doing such a thing.

You are a troll, writing a troll thread. Get out.

So because you disagree, I should simply "get out"?

Ishammael · August 2015

Blackhorne wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Blackhorne wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Dang! I didn't think I'd get this much hate so fast! Bring it!

Also, I listed four reasons. ...

No, you didn't. You listed four benefits of stealth. No one or combination of those benefits precludes a fifth (or a sixth, or a seventh, for that matter.)

The fact that you get those four benefits means that a damage bonus on top is not necessary.

Prove that assertion.

1+1=2
QED

Winterpsy · August 2015

I like how it is. It can be countered. Like you dont go frolicking out in a war zone near an enemy keep or main road, picking flowers butt naked.

You anticipate damage, you expect an enemy ranger behind every corner. If you are a squishy you just keep behind the shield carriers, so you are no easy target. You use detect pots, mage light, learn to be more aware of surroundings, you dont go afking in war zone, you use flare skill ,you keep to stealth when nearing an enemy object not giving away your own position.

Stealth attack is about surprise, ambush. Once they gave up their location after the initial attack, they need to retreat, because they'd get maimed by the angry mobs.

It's so natural in war games, that without it everything would feel.... odd. Even more I'd love to see more options for setting up ambushes, stealth attacks, like traps and so on.

Ishammael · August 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

Because lore reasons and mechanics from other TES games

This is about the only thing I could think of.

rendolpheb16_ESO · August 2015

This thread is a good example why ZoS should reinsert the LOL button on forum.

reften · August 2015

So, be a DK without the DK buffs?

Minnesinger · August 2015

I once sneaked in the shadows but got bored. It is ok to give them their boost. It is NOT ok they get insta kills. If someone likes to stab others in the back they should have their boost for damage but I don´t like they can hide after their attack. They should get a "5 sec penalty" which keeps them from hiding.

Ishammael · August 2015

rendolpheb16_ESO wrote: »

This thread is a good example why ZoS should reinsert the LOL button on forum.

Which part would get the LOL? My original post, or the speed in which I was shouted down?

eNumbra · August 2015

Oh was I unclear? You shouldn't leave because we disagree, you should leave because your opinion is bad. Patently, objectively, hands-down awful; one that I can only associate with that of a troll especially considering everyone gets a stealth damage bonus, but you single out nightblades. So here's another idea in line with your logic - we should remove healing from the game, defend yourselves Templars. Let's remove shields from the game, you already have heavy armor, defend yourselves Dragonknights.

Stealth damage bonus is the defining bonus of stealth if you don't or refuse to accept that you shouldn't play RPGs

Ishammael · August 2015

eNumbra wrote: »

Stealth damage bonus is the defining bonus of stealth if you don't or refuse to accept that you shouldn't play RPGs

There is nothing here about "refusing to accept" anything. I am specifically talking about stealth bonus damage in the context of ESO.

Typically the "stealth" class of RPGs is balanced by having lower normal damage, or restricted to specific weapons (among other things) in exchange for the "backstab" or "flanking" modifier (or whatever you want to call it). The nightblade specific passives and skills which provide bonus damage and effects from "hidden" are fine as they define and are part of the class. Wrecking blow or Snipe (among others) from stealth (which anybody can do!) is not balanced and not fun, regardless of which class performs the move. Being invisible is a bonus in and of itself.

I'll break it down using two examples:
1. Wrecking blow: hard CC, enormous damage coefficient, self-empower
2. Snipe: 38m+ (LOL), nice dmg coef, can add defile or bonus damage

From stealth you get in addition: hard stun and +20% damage.

Finally, if you want to argue about removing healing or shields or armor or whatever, make your own thread. There are many things which could be discussed about those abilities but they do not directly compare to bonus damage from stealth.

Master_Kas · August 2015

technohic · August 2015

I agree. Can't believe people actually think this is a troll post. Stealth is an advantage unto itself with giving the hidden the ability to chose their engagement and get the first shot off. Don't think it needs to also have the extra advantage of hitting a lot harder as well. It's fine for single player PvE to feel like an assassin, but it does not make for good play and counter play in PvP.

Ishammael · August 2015

technohic wrote: »

I agree. Can't believe people actually think this is a troll post. Stealth is an advantage unto itself with giving the hidden the ability to chose their engagement and get the first shot off. Don't think it needs to also have the extra advantage of hitting a lot harder as well. It's fine for single player PvE to feel like an assassin, but it does not make for good play and counter play in PvP.

Thanks mate.

bosmern_ESO · August 2015

I came here to read the butt hurt from people who PvHorse all day, The QQ from this thread alone has satisfied me for the day.

Ishammael · August 2015

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

I came here to read the butt hurt from people who PvHorse all day, The QQ from this thread alone has satisfied me for the day.

Thanks for your kind comment!

DDuke · August 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

From stealth you get in addition: hard stun and +20% damage.

You are entertaining I'll give you that.

There is no such thing as a "hard stun" in this game, everything is just a stamina drain.

In fact, increased dmg from stealth is pretty much the only element of "rogue/assassin" type gameplay left in the game and it's not there just for show, it is there to encourage people to use stealth as an offensive tool rather than just hide somewhere in a corner.

Also, the damage modifier from stealth actually varies depending on which skill you use. It is not a flat 20%.

I still don't understand why you're calling for dumbing down the game. Isn't it casual enough for you already?

Ishammael · August 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

From stealth you get in addition: hard stun and +20% damage.

You are entertaining I'll give you that.

There is no such thing as a "hard stun" in this game, everything is just a stamina drain.

In fact, increased dmg from stealth is pretty much the only element of "rogue/assassin" type gameplay left in the game and it's not there just for show, it is there to encourage people to use stealth as an offensive tool rather than just hide somewhere in a corner.

Also, the damage modifier from stealth actually varies depending on which skill you use. It is not a flat 20%.

I still don't understand why you're calling for dumbing down the game. Isn't it casual enough for you already?

Any balance arguments or just lore arguments? Hiding and ambushing is, in and of itself, an offensive tool.

Don't play semantics with "hard stun". I meant hard CC as compared to soft CC like talons. This isn't a gotcha contest.

DDuke · August 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

From stealth you get in addition: hard stun and +20% damage.

You are entertaining I'll give you that.

There is no such thing as a "hard stun" in this game, everything is just a stamina drain.

In fact, increased dmg from stealth is pretty much the only element of "rogue/assassin" type gameplay left in the game and it's not there just for show, it is there to encourage people to use stealth as an offensive tool rather than just hide somewhere in a corner.

Also, the damage modifier from stealth actually varies depending on which skill you use. It is not a flat 20%.

I still don't understand why you're calling for dumbing down the game. Isn't it casual enough for you already?

Any balance arguments or just lore arguments? Hiding and ambushing is, in and of itself, an offensive tool.

Don't play semantics with "hard stun". I meant hard CC as compared to soft CC like talons. This isn't a gotcha contest.

Actually talons is more of a CC in this game (vs melee characters) than "hard stuns", simply because you don't get immunity after rolling out of them. You should see how strong they are in PTS vs stamina builds...

If you want balance arguments, here's one: magicka builds (atleast magicka DKs & Sorcs) deal more burst outside of stealth after nirn is nerfed, and sorcerers can already combo higher amount of damage (even with nirn on target) than a, let's say stamina nightblade, can.

My stam NB built to deal highest possible damage doesn't come close to Curse+Detonation+Streak+Frag/DB burst outside of stealth, and even has less survivability in most scenarios. From stealth, I can deliver more or less equal burst.

Also, nothing prevents you from sneaking with your magicka build.

Stealth & stealth damage is a balancing factor here and serves to separate magicka & (some) stamina builds in terms of playstyle.

Also, hiding is not an offensive tool, ambushing is. Yet, if there is virtually no benefit for "ambushing" (that is to say, you tickle your opponent), then no one will do that and every stealth player will just hide until they spot someone at 10% health they can actually kill.

Again, I'm not sure why you want game mechanics removed, rather than added.
That kind of thinking ultimately only leads to dumbed down low quality games.

When we have own bar for skills while stealthed, stealth combo skills & opener skills you can use while stealthed etc, then we can talk about stealth damage (though the answer will be the same).

WebBull · August 2015

I agree that stealth itself is strong enough and doesn't need a damage damage bonus. The damage bonus should come when Nightblades are unstealthed since that is when they are at a disadvantage. Also for those who say "it's always been this way", that doesn't mean that it will or should always be this way.

Baronh2o · August 2015

I see two ways to solve this:

1) Remove the stealth (ctrl key by default) mechanic from the game. This would put everyone on equal footing...oh wait they already were. Every player can use this mechanic, how novel! Thread op's argument for balance is null and void because it's already balanced by being available to everyone.

2) Refer to #1.

DDuke · August 2015

WebBull wrote: »

I agree that stealth itself is strong enough and doesn't need a damage damage bonus. The damage bonus should come when Nightblades are unstealthed since that is when they are at a disadvantage. Also for those who say "it's always been this way", that doesn't mean that it will or should always be this way.

So everyone should deal the exact same damage in the exact same manner?

Why don't we just remove armour & skills as well, let's all just whack each other with a random generic fireball that deals 10 damage.

If there are no different disadvantages & advantages to different playstyles & classes, that is what you're going to end up with, a generic dumbed down hack&slash action game instead of a RPG.

eNumbra · August 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Typically the "stealth" class of RPGs is balanced by having lower normal damage, or restricted to specific weapons (among other things) in exchange for the "backstab" or "flanking" modifier (or whatever you want to call it). The nightblade specific passives and skills which provide bonus damage and effects from "hidden" are fine as they define and are part of the class. Wrecking blow or Snipe (among others) from stealth (which anybody can do!) is not balanced and not fun, regardless of which class performs the move. Being invisible is a bonus in and of itself.

Most RPGs have always had some sort of perk or skill that allowed you to pull from Dexterity/Agility for damage rather than Strength, which allowed Rogue like characters to deal damage on par with or near that of a warrior - the trade-off again, was survivability.

Being invisible is not a bonus, choosing where to fight is not a bonus; every class has access to stealth game play. (Two handed melee weapons shouldn't receive the damage bonus - an old ES mechanic, but that's a different argument) There are two Races that get bonuses to stealth, there are couple of armor sets that provide bonuses to stealth as well as medium passives - everyone is on the same playing field - Nightblades with their lack of shields and their limited class healing need the damage bonuses or you've gimped them entirely.

WebBull · August 2015

DDuke wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

I agree that stealth itself is strong enough and doesn't need a damage damage bonus. The damage bonus should come when Nightblades are unstealthed since that is when they are at a disadvantage. Also for those who say "it's always been this way", that doesn't mean that it will or should always be this way.

So everyone should deal the exact same damage in the exact same manner?

Why don't we just remove armour & skills as well, let's all just whack each other with a random generic fireball that deals 10 damage.

If there are no different disadvantages & advantages to different playstyles & classes, that is what you're going to end up with, a generic dumbed down hack&slash action game instead of a RPG.

Never said any of that. My comment was that your 20% bonus (or whatever it is) should come when you are unstealthed instead of when you are stealthed. No mechanics change, just your damage bonus would come at the end of the fight instead of the initial stealthed attack. Of course this would make it much harder to 1-2 shot players from stealth. Might take 3-4 hits under this scenario so I can understand your concern.

DDuke · August 2015

WebBull wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

I agree that stealth itself is strong enough and doesn't need a damage damage bonus. The damage bonus should come when Nightblades are unstealthed since that is when they are at a disadvantage. Also for those who say "it's always been this way", that doesn't mean that it will or should always be this way.

So everyone should deal the exact same damage in the exact same manner?

Why don't we just remove armour & skills as well, let's all just whack each other with a random generic fireball that deals 10 damage.

If there are no different disadvantages & advantages to different playstyles & classes, that is what you're going to end up with, a generic dumbed down hack&slash action game instead of a RPG.

Never said any of that. My comment was that your 20% bonus (or whatever it is) should come when you are unstealthed instead of when you are stealthed. No mechanics change, just your damage bonus would come at the end of the fight instead of the initial stealthed attack. Of course this would make it much harder to 1-2 shot players from stealth. Might take 3-4 hits under this scenario so I can understand your concern.

Wow, someone is sensitive lol...

You actually can't 1-2 shot players anymore in next patch, not with my build atleast.

Contrary to the popular belief, I'm happy about that.

Doesn't mean I don't want main bulk of my damage come from stealth however.
That is how I've always played rogues, assassins & thieves during the 15~ years I've been playing MMOs.

13igTyme · August 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Dang! I didn't think I'd get this much hate so fast! Bring it!

Also, I listed four reasons. Nobody yet has listed a good reason to have bonus damage from stealth.

Master_Kas did in the second post and the thread should have ended after that. Every class can sneak AND the fact that every game, video or table top, the rogue class has ALWAYS had bonus damage from surprise attacks.

bosmern_ESO · August 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

I came here to read the butt hurt from people who PvHorse all day, The QQ from this thread alone has satisfied me for the day.

Thanks for your kind comment!

No, thank you for bringing some entertainment to this forum

FMonk · August 2015

This thread is a perfect example of why Nightblade balance is the way it is right now, every time a topic comes up that threatens their gimmicky BS playstyle, hordes of them show up to defend it, and ZOS listens to them.