0 stamina regen while blocking-ZOS still ignores feedback of PVE tanks and follows mysterious agenda

RoamingRiverElk · August 2015

This change simply creates less options for people's builds, since we are getting NOTHING in return for this nerf.

They have no clue about what skilled PvP is like, and what kinds of things different classes have as the VERY FOUNDATION for PvPing their classes well, whenever it's not just all about the numbers - about who has the bigger team.

PvP continues to favor zergs more and more with these changes.

But what can you do really, just look at the latest stream by the developer responsible for Cyrodiil - he played a ranger, having so much fun when outnumbering the enemies, getting worried the one time an enemy actually hit him twice! He got attacked by a bow attack out of nowhere, what did he do? He turned the camera and went looking for the enemy instead of roll dodging out of instinct, which is what you definitely should do in that situation (or block, if that's your build - haha, that build isn't viable anymore in PvP though, lols). I watched the first 20 minutes of this - that was NOT what intense gameplay is like in ESO. (This is the video I'm talking about http://www.twitch.tv/zos_brian_wheeler/v/10843740 ) Why do I bring this up? Because the developers in charge of these changes need to actually have fundamental insight into PvP, but they simply do not have it. They have not actually played the game nearly enough at all. Who they should be asking about gameplay/skill changes are the people in the EU and NA dueling guilds - the best players of the various classes. It is they who know the most about this game.

That ranger outnumbering gameplay is exactly the kind of gameplay all these changes are for - no one who plays outnumbered has time for DK heavy attack executes or three light attacks after the other! Numbers, numbers, numbers. Want to have skilled PvP where numbers aren't the only thing that matters? I guess we'll have to find another game.

Anxileel · August 2015

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

This change simply creates less options for people's builds, since we are getting NOTHING in return for this nerf.

They have no clue about what skilled PvP is like, and what kinds of things different classes have as the VERY FOUNDATION for PvPing their classes well, whenever it's not just all about the numbers - about who has the bigger team.

PvP continues to favor zergs more and more with these changes.

But what can you do really, just look at the latest stream by the developer responsible for Cyrodiil - he played a ranger, having so much fun when outnumbering the enemies, getting worried the one time an enemy actually hit him twice! He got attacked by a bow attack out of nowhere, what did he do? He turned the camera and went looking for the enemy instead of roll dodging out of instinct, which is what you definitely should do in that situation (or block, if that's your build - haha, that build isn't viable anymore in PvP though, lols). I watched the first 20 minutes of this - that was NOT what intense gameplay is like in ESO. (This is the video I'm talking about http://www.twitch.tv/zos_brian_wheeler/v/10843740 ) Why do I bring this up? Because the developers in charge of these changes need to actually have fundamental insight into PvP, but they simply do not have it. They have not actually played the game nearly enough at all. Who they should be asking about gameplay/skill changes are the people in the EU and NA dueling guilds - the best players of the various classes. It is they who know the most about this game.

That ranger outnumbering gameplay is exactly the kind of gameplay all these changes are for - no one who plays outnumbered has time for DK heavy attack executes or three light attacks after the other! Numbers, numbers, numbers. Want to have skilled PvP where numbers aren't the only thing that matters? I guess we'll have to find another game.

I agree the developers don't have much experience to decide what changes this game needs.

EvilEmpire · August 2015

Show me one dev/QA video where they've ever even played a tank. that should tell you something right there. This is just another nerf to stam players, not just tanks because heaven forbid stam players actually have to play on a level playing field - since we already have to deal with resource drain from blocking and rolling whereas mag pools for a mage player not only boosts their offense, but also their defense.

ThyIronFist · August 2015

It's not only PvE. Take PvP for example, Templars and Dragonknights have no mobility compared to their Sorc and NB overlords. If I want to survive I NEED to block. But since ZOS is nerfing everything in the ground playing my DK I feel super weak.

I'm running stamina 2h and sword and shield. A lot of our skills and passives have been overnerfed and if I can't block, heal, or do any damage anymore then I might as well run around naked and try and punch people to death with my bare hands.

DDuke · August 2015

ThyIronFist wrote: »

It's not only PvE. Take PvP for example, Templars and Dragonknights have no mobility compared to their Sorc and NB overlords. If I want to survive I NEED to block. But since ZOS is nerfing everything in the ground playing my DK I feel super weak.

I'm running stamina 2h and sword and shield. A lot of our skills and passives have been overnerfed and if I can't block, heal, or do any damage anymore then I might as well run around naked and try and punch people to death with my bare hands.

You can still block for a looong time (I have tested this on the PTS), you just won't be able to block infinitely.
And this is good, because if you were able to permablock forever, no one could ever kill you with the new higher TTK.

Oh, and for the people still complaining about this affecting PvE...

All PvE content is still easily doable after this change.

For things like AA axes, you might want to consider not blocking 24/7 if you think there's going to be too many axes draining your stamina down before boss is dead. Even on live, you can easily take hits from those axes even as a DPS. The damage dealt to my medium armour NB is around 5-7k/axe swing.

Now, someone in heavy armour & 30k+ health should have absolutely no problem.

You can also try blocking until you have your ultimate up (NBs: Bolstering Darkness, Templars: Empowering Sweep, DKs: Standard or Magma Shell, Sorcs: Suppression Field), during which you regen resources by not blocking & heavy attacking instead.

EvilEmpire · August 2015

DDuke wrote: »

ThyIronFist wrote: »

It's not only PvE. Take PvP for example, Templars and Dragonknights have no mobility compared to their Sorc and NB overlords. If I want to survive I NEED to block. But since ZOS is nerfing everything in the ground playing my DK I feel super weak.

I'm running stamina 2h and sword and shield. A lot of our skills and passives have been overnerfed and if I can't block, heal, or do any damage anymore then I might as well run around naked and try and punch people to death with my bare hands.

You can still block for a looong time (I have tested this on the PTS), you just won't be able to block infinitely.
And this is good, because if you were able to permablock forever, no one could ever kill you with the new higher TTK.

Oh, and for the people still complaining about this affecting PvE...

All PvE content is still easily doable after this change.

For things like AA axes, you might want to consider not blocking 24/7 if you think there's going to be too many axes draining your stamina down before boss is dead. Even on live, you can easily take hits from those axes even as a DPS. The damage dealt to my medium armour NB is around 5-7k/axe swing.

Now, someone in heavy armour & 30k+ health should have absolutely no problem.

You can also try blocking until you have your ultimate up (NBs: Bolstering Darkness, Templars: Empowering Sweep, DKs: Standard or Magma Shell, Sorcs: Suppression Field), during which you regen resources by not blocking & heavy attacking instead.

So you play a med armor NB tank then? No?
And so if I'm tanking 4-5 axes, I can just not hold block and weave in hvy attacks...got it. I'm so glab a NB dps was able to come in here and let us all know how to tank better.

DDuke · August 2015

EvilEmpire wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ThyIronFist wrote: »

It's not only PvE. Take PvP for example, Templars and Dragonknights have no mobility compared to their Sorc and NB overlords. If I want to survive I NEED to block. But since ZOS is nerfing everything in the ground playing my DK I feel super weak.

I'm running stamina 2h and sword and shield. A lot of our skills and passives have been overnerfed and if I can't block, heal, or do any damage anymore then I might as well run around naked and try and punch people to death with my bare hands.

You can still block for a looong time (I have tested this on the PTS), you just won't be able to block infinitely.
And this is good, because if you were able to permablock forever, no one could ever kill you with the new higher TTK.

Oh, and for the people still complaining about this affecting PvE...

All PvE content is still easily doable after this change.

For things like AA axes, you might want to consider not blocking 24/7 if you think there's going to be too many axes draining your stamina down before boss is dead. Even on live, you can easily take hits from those axes even as a DPS. The damage dealt to my medium armour NB is around 5-7k/axe swing.

Now, someone in heavy armour & 30k+ health should have absolutely no problem.

You can also try blocking until you have your ultimate up (NBs: Bolstering Darkness, Templars: Empowering Sweep, DKs: Standard or Magma Shell, Sorcs: Suppression Field), during which you regen resources by not blocking & heavy attacking instead.

So you play a med armor NB tank then? No?
And so if I'm tanking 4-5 axes, I can just not hold block and weave in hvy attacks...got it. I'm so glab a NB dps was able to come in here and let us all know how to tank better.

The context is lost on you it seems.

Point was that someone at 50% mitigation (heavy armour) & 30k health should have zero problems tanking 4-5 axes if he so decided and doesn't even need to block during a dmg reducing ultimate.
Another point you may be able to derive from my post is that those axes don't really even require tanking, just have the person they're hitting hold block when that axe is slowly swinging for 5-10k dmg, or perhaps even CC them if they're too much trouble (they are not CC immune afaik).

And hey, you're welcome. I'm sorry it takes a NB DPS to tell you how to do your job better

Alternatively, you could go to PTS & witness it yourself how easy tanking still is.

Maddux · August 2015

twitch.tv/jerberan

Watch my Stream now and you will see that you dont have Staminaproblems as a Tank.

Artheiron · August 2015

0 regen while blocking is a lazy way to fix the perma-blocker problem. they could have add more skills to prevent doing actions like blocking or dodge rolling for a certain amount of time.

most pro devs implement counters instead of nerfing an ability.

for ex. champions in LOTRO, got crazy damage output. in PVE they add some creatures and in pvp they gave some monster classes an ability to disarm their enemies. also they gave champions to get their weapons back.

that's how you make a combat system fun. action-reaction, ability-counter ability. just like rock paper and scissors.

Personofsecrets · August 2015

Maddux wrote: »

twitch.tv/jerberan

Watch my Stream now and you will see that you dont have Staminaproblems as a Tank.

And?

Personofsecrets · August 2015

DDuke wrote: »

EvilEmpire wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ThyIronFist wrote: »

It's not only PvE. Take PvP for example, Templars and Dragonknights have no mobility compared to their Sorc and NB overlords. If I want to survive I NEED to block. But since ZOS is nerfing everything in the ground playing my DK I feel super weak.

I'm running stamina 2h and sword and shield. A lot of our skills and passives have been overnerfed and if I can't block, heal, or do any damage anymore then I might as well run around naked and try and punch people to death with my bare hands.

You can still block for a looong time (I have tested this on the PTS), you just won't be able to block infinitely.
And this is good, because if you were able to permablock forever, no one could ever kill you with the new higher TTK.

Oh, and for the people still complaining about this affecting PvE...

All PvE content is still easily doable after this change.

For things like AA axes, you might want to consider not blocking 24/7 if you think there's going to be too many axes draining your stamina down before boss is dead. Even on live, you can easily take hits from those axes even as a DPS. The damage dealt to my medium armour NB is around 5-7k/axe swing.

Now, someone in heavy armour & 30k+ health should have absolutely no problem.

You can also try blocking until you have your ultimate up (NBs: Bolstering Darkness, Templars: Empowering Sweep, DKs: Standard or Magma Shell, Sorcs: Suppression Field), during which you regen resources by not blocking & heavy attacking instead.

So you play a med armor NB tank then? No?
And so if I'm tanking 4-5 axes, I can just not hold block and weave in hvy attacks...got it. I'm so glab a NB dps was able to come in here and let us all know how to tank better.

The context is lost on you it seems.

Point was that someone at 50% mitigation (heavy armour) & 30k health should have zero problems tanking 4-5 axes if he so decided and doesn't even need to block during a dmg reducing ultimate.
Another point you may be able to derive from my post is that those axes don't really even require tanking, just have the person they're hitting hold block when that axe is slowly swinging for 5-10k dmg, or perhaps even CC them if they're too much trouble (they are not CC immune afaik).

And hey, you're welcome. I'm sorry it takes a NB DPS to tell you how to do your job better

Alternatively, you could go to PTS & witness it yourself how easy tanking still is.

Spreading some misinformation I see.

We already have discussed this.

DDuke · August 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

EvilEmpire wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ThyIronFist wrote: »

It's not only PvE. Take PvP for example, Templars and Dragonknights have no mobility compared to their Sorc and NB overlords. If I want to survive I NEED to block. But since ZOS is nerfing everything in the ground playing my DK I feel super weak.

I'm running stamina 2h and sword and shield. A lot of our skills and passives have been overnerfed and if I can't block, heal, or do any damage anymore then I might as well run around naked and try and punch people to death with my bare hands.

You can still block for a looong time (I have tested this on the PTS), you just won't be able to block infinitely.
And this is good, because if you were able to permablock forever, no one could ever kill you with the new higher TTK.

Oh, and for the people still complaining about this affecting PvE...

All PvE content is still easily doable after this change.

For things like AA axes, you might want to consider not blocking 24/7 if you think there's going to be too many axes draining your stamina down before boss is dead. Even on live, you can easily take hits from those axes even as a DPS. The damage dealt to my medium armour NB is around 5-7k/axe swing.

Now, someone in heavy armour & 30k+ health should have absolutely no problem.

You can also try blocking until you have your ultimate up (NBs: Bolstering Darkness, Templars: Empowering Sweep, DKs: Standard or Magma Shell, Sorcs: Suppression Field), during which you regen resources by not blocking & heavy attacking instead.

So you play a med armor NB tank then? No?
And so if I'm tanking 4-5 axes, I can just not hold block and weave in hvy attacks...got it. I'm so glab a NB dps was able to come in here and let us all know how to tank better.

The context is lost on you it seems.

Point was that someone at 50% mitigation (heavy armour) & 30k health should have zero problems tanking 4-5 axes if he so decided and doesn't even need to block during a dmg reducing ultimate.
Another point you may be able to derive from my post is that those axes don't really even require tanking, just have the person they're hitting hold block when that axe is slowly swinging for 5-10k dmg, or perhaps even CC them if they're too much trouble (they are not CC immune afaik).

And hey, you're welcome. I'm sorry it takes a NB DPS to tell you how to do your job better

Alternatively, you could go to PTS & witness it yourself how easy tanking still is.

Spreading some misinformation I see.

We already have discussed this.

Never been hit that hard, and I've had two axes swinging at me while I'm doing Surprise Attack->LA rotation on HM Mage

Regardless, that (17k) is not the full health pool of anyone who should be doing AA (hardmode or not), so my point stands:
The axes aren't one shotting anyone, so they don't really require tanking (just good healing).

If you absolutely must tank all of them (sigh), then try what I proposed above: use a dmg reducing ulti when you need to regen stamina and you should be fine.

Personofsecrets · August 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

EvilEmpire wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ThyIronFist wrote: »

It's not only PvE. Take PvP for example, Templars and Dragonknights have no mobility compared to their Sorc and NB overlords. If I want to survive I NEED to block. But since ZOS is nerfing everything in the ground playing my DK I feel super weak.

I'm running stamina 2h and sword and shield. A lot of our skills and passives have been overnerfed and if I can't block, heal, or do any damage anymore then I might as well run around naked and try and punch people to death with my bare hands.

You can still block for a looong time (I have tested this on the PTS), you just won't be able to block infinitely.
And this is good, because if you were able to permablock forever, no one could ever kill you with the new higher TTK.

Oh, and for the people still complaining about this affecting PvE...

All PvE content is still easily doable after this change.

For things like AA axes, you might want to consider not blocking 24/7 if you think there's going to be too many axes draining your stamina down before boss is dead. Even on live, you can easily take hits from those axes even as a DPS. The damage dealt to my medium armour NB is around 5-7k/axe swing.

Now, someone in heavy armour & 30k+ health should have absolutely no problem.

You can also try blocking until you have your ultimate up (NBs: Bolstering Darkness, Templars: Empowering Sweep, DKs: Standard or Magma Shell, Sorcs: Suppression Field), during which you regen resources by not blocking & heavy attacking instead.

So you play a med armor NB tank then? No?
And so if I'm tanking 4-5 axes, I can just not hold block and weave in hvy attacks...got it. I'm so glab a NB dps was able to come in here and let us all know how to tank better.

The context is lost on you it seems.

Point was that someone at 50% mitigation (heavy armour) & 30k health should have zero problems tanking 4-5 axes if he so decided and doesn't even need to block during a dmg reducing ultimate.
Another point you may be able to derive from my post is that those axes don't really even require tanking, just have the person they're hitting hold block when that axe is slowly swinging for 5-10k dmg, or perhaps even CC them if they're too much trouble (they are not CC immune afaik).

And hey, you're welcome. I'm sorry it takes a NB DPS to tell you how to do your job better

Alternatively, you could go to PTS & witness it yourself how easy tanking still is.

Spreading some misinformation I see.

We already have discussed this.

Never been hit that hard, and I've had two axes swinging at me while I'm doing Surprise Attack->LA rotation on HM Mage

Regardless, that (17k) is not the full health pool of anyone who should be doing AA (hardmode or not), so my point stands:
The axes aren't one shotting anyone, so they don't really require tanking (just good healing).

If you absolutely must tank all of them (sigh), then try what I proposed above: use a dmg reducing ulti when you need to regen stamina and you should be fine.

The damage the tank takes in the fight is much more than you imply by the comment of how much damage you take while in medium armor. My image is evidence of that.

There are a wide array of attacks that the tank takes and dropping block isn't really viable for survival. That is why we are here in the first place. That reason is the developers thinking that tanks should not be blocking continuously despite the huge incoming damage that they face. Dropping block also isn't super viable for stamina regeneration and many of us knew that the stamina ticks wouldn't work out well, but that is a different subject.

While yes, healers can help prevent spike damage from killing a tank by healing them, the healers job gets exasperated if the tank is taking alot of damage rather than mitigating alot of damage. Regardless, shifting the goal posts of what tanking is isn't necessarily a good thing. Like I have said before, tanks are going to miss the times that they didn't have to be stuck to the healers behind and, unfortunately, we have come full circle.

Now we just bide our time until we can finally stop asking for shards and until the developers decide that tanking isn't fun again and nerf something else.

Sensesfail13 · August 2015

DDuke wrote: »

EvilEmpire wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ThyIronFist wrote: »

It's not only PvE. Take PvP for example, Templars and Dragonknights have no mobility compared to their Sorc and NB overlords. If I want to survive I NEED to block. But since ZOS is nerfing everything in the ground playing my DK I feel super weak.

I'm running stamina 2h and sword and shield. A lot of our skills and passives have been overnerfed and if I can't block, heal, or do any damage anymore then I might as well run around naked and try and punch people to death with my bare hands.

You can still block for a looong time (I have tested this on the PTS), you just won't be able to block infinitely.
And this is good, because if you were able to permablock forever, no one could ever kill you with the new higher TTK.

Oh, and for the people still complaining about this affecting PvE...

All PvE content is still easily doable after this change.

For things like AA axes, you might want to consider not blocking 24/7 if you think there's going to be too many axes draining your stamina down before boss is dead. Even on live, you can easily take hits from those axes even as a DPS. The damage dealt to my medium armour NB is around 5-7k/axe swing.

Now, someone in heavy armour & 30k+ health should have absolutely no problem.

You can also try blocking until you have your ultimate up (NBs: Bolstering Darkness, Templars: Empowering Sweep, DKs: Standard or Magma Shell, Sorcs: Suppression Field), during which you regen resources by not blocking & heavy attacking instead.

So you play a med armor NB tank then? No?
And so if I'm tanking 4-5 axes, I can just not hold block and weave in hvy attacks...got it. I'm so glab a NB dps was able to come in here and let us all know how to tank better.

The context is lost on you it seems.

Point was that someone at 50% mitigation (heavy armour) & 30k health should have zero problems tanking 4-5 axes if he so decided and doesn't even need to block during a dmg reducing ultimate.
Another point you may be able to derive from my post is that those axes don't really even require tanking, just have the person they're hitting hold block when that axe is slowly swinging for 5-10k dmg, or perhaps even CC them if they're too much trouble (they are not CC immune afaik).

And hey, you're welcome. I'm sorry it takes a NB DPS to tell you how to do your job better

Alternatively, you could go to PTS & witness it yourself how easy tanking still is.

You have obviously never tanked in this game

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

WillS · August 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

I am an end game tank. Ive tested this and I gave the following feedback.

Nerf is managable in all the dungeons ive tested includng the new ones and gives a good challenge for tanks in pve. So I guess they didnt ignore my feedback.

Here is my personnal opinion: tanking is ridiculously easy on live that anyone can do it. The change will help weed out those who should roll dps instead.

'Those who should role dps' are you implying that one playstyle is superior to other?

Cause if so, then how is the game balanced? It should be about your preferred style, and not which one is easier.

And in all fairness, it might be nice for PVE but for PVP which apparently you don't engage in, is bad

IC would have been a place for tanks and other styles both cause of the PVE in there. And why no tanks in PVP in the first place? If the servers are located way away from me and i see for a build that doesn't deal with 1 shot kills or similar, or for my liking of a type of play style if a person says, why should it be a so called 'thing that doesn't happen'? You just wanna deal with block casters that ruined pvp in first place, deal with them, and leave Sword and Board alone or atleast sword and boards with all heavy armor.

If someone thinks they don't like perma block or that it is boring, you aren't playing it right. Cause i rarely stand in one place, rather i debuff, and make enemy vulnerable by many means, while creating disturbance enough that i am a target of concern.

ToRelax · August 2015

DDuke wrote: »

ThyIronFist wrote: »

It's not only PvE. Take PvP for example, Templars and Dragonknights have no mobility compared to their Sorc and NB overlords. If I want to survive I NEED to block. But since ZOS is nerfing everything in the ground playing my DK I feel super weak.

I'm running stamina 2h and sword and shield. A lot of our skills and passives have been overnerfed and if I can't block, heal, or do any damage anymore then I might as well run around naked and try and punch people to death with my bare hands.

You can still block for a looong time (I have tested this on the PTS), you just won't be able to block infinitely.
And this is good, because if you were able to permablock forever, no one could ever kill you with the new higher TTK.

Oh, and for the people still complaining about this affecting PvE...

All PvE content is still easily doable after this change.

For things like AA axes, you might want to consider not blocking 24/7 if you think there's going to be too many axes draining your stamina down before boss is dead. Even on live, you can easily take hits from those axes even as a DPS. The damage dealt to my medium armour NB is around 5-7k/axe swing.

Now, someone in heavy armour & 30k+ health should have absolutely no problem.

You can also try blocking until you have your ultimate up (NBs: Bolstering Darkness, Templars: Empowering Sweep, DKs: Standard or Magma Shell, Sorcs: Suppression Field), during which you regen resources by not blocking & heavy attacking instead.

This topic is not about 1v1 though. Every decent player can be unkillable in 1v1 if he really wants to, and that will not change with this patch I'm sure.
But look at outnumbered gameplay, and compare the defensive mechanics with each other. There are shields, block, dodge, cloak, mobility like bolt escape and shadow image, healing, reflects, mitigation and some cc/zoning like defensive rune, mines or the fear trap morph.
Without going further into this, blocking builds simply don't work anymore against multiple targets like they used to, but things like Bolt Escape, Cloak, Dodge, Mistform still work fine. Ok, BE and Dodge got nerfed as well and Cloak will be actually less reliable against detection pots. But they are still allowing you to make some decisions with ich you might escape or recover a bit. Block makes you move slow and stops your recovery and becomes more expensive the more enemies are attacking you. I don't quite see how this is even comparable anymore.
And shouldn't a "tank" require more players to kill than a "damage dealer"? Now it's the other way around, just doesn't make any sense.

Rinmaethodain · August 2015

Patch notes 2.1.2.

Zos continues to ignore feedback on "0 stamina regen while blocking".

Its seems that its new policy of ZOS, to ignore feedback, from players who are actually the ones that are going to be struck the most by a nerf. I guess its in their long term plan to "keep game in good health".