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Regeneration vs. Cost Reduction
I'm currently planning out a magicka-based nightblade and am debating between a Breton and an Altmer. One gives a boost to magicka regen while the other gives cost reduction to magicka abilities. Which gives me the most bang for my buck? This would also apply to enchantment/set bonus effects as well. Thanks.
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MrGrimey✭✭✭✭✭2 of Breton's passives are very weak, 3% cost reduction is negligible compared to 9% regen. The spell resist passive is nearly useless as well. Unless Breton gets a much needed buff, Altmer is the clear choice2
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That's my thing. Even if I go Altmer, should I seek regen or reduction when it comes to gear/enchants?
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thunderwell✭✭✭Stack whichever to cap, then stack the other?
I prefer recovery, because it's always a solid x% of my magicka vs y% of different magicka costs.
But, that's my playstyle.
My impression is: More reduction = more casts per point; faster recovery = next cast comes sooner.
Maybe ask: How much Magicka will I save with reductions vs how fast is my magicka recovering?
Which one is better sustainable over a longer battle?
I'm actually curious now, which is better for long, drawn out battles?NA, PC Megaserver
Zhaani, Female Khajiit, Nightblade, AD (current main)
(Unless otherwise put in my sig, all characters are below level 50)0 -
Brantleyx✭✭We actually discussed this in a previous thread, Check this link
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/204709/brenton-or-high-elf-magicka-dps-nb-which-one#latest1 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭2 of Breton's passives are very weak, 3% cost reduction is negligible compared to 9% regen. The spell resist passive is nearly useless as well. Unless Breton gets a much needed buff, Altmer is the clear choice
The Bretons cost reduction is superior. As long as you spam abilities (which everyone does all the time in combat) cost reduction is much better for your. Regeneration only gets better with every second where you don't do anything
I think this is perfectly valid and therefore balanced. Both have benefits.
Cost redcution gets better with each ability you cast.
Regeneration gets better with each second where you run around and don't use abilities.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.0 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Whatever magicka cost is reduced from spells never has to be recovered, that how I see it.
The effectiveness of cost reduction varies with the spell cost if you have percentage based reduction, like the CP passives or seducer 5-set. This is where it gets somewhat interesting, jewelry cost reduction glyphs are value based. Low cost spells get reduced with a bigger percentage than high cost spells. There's said to be cap on reduction though, coming closer to that cap will decrease the effectiveness of the cost reduction. Im not sure at what percentage/value this cap had been said but I used to get a ton of cost reduction with arch-mage seducer combo.
Now when it comes to regen its less complicated, your normal rotation (pve) cost a certain amount of magicka over the time it take to go out. With enough regen you're depleting you're resource as fast as its getting regenerated, this is the break even point. Usually your resources will drain quicker than they are regenerated so your resource pool needs to act like a buffer. Once your get closer to the break even point you will notice its really easy to sustain, even without potions. This gets easy once people start applying elemental drain, siphon spirit etc.
With pvp its a gets a lot more complicated because players can be forced to spend a lot of resources or they die. For this I personally feel cost reduction is more effective because it ignores the aspect of time. Still, you'll need a decent amount of regen to recover quickly after you survive a burst.
For magicka builds (usually Altmer or Breton) I use the following guide line:
3x cost reduction on jewerly (this is all you need for pve)
Atronach mundus stone
First 5 CPs in reduction, next 5 in regen etc
Add regen set bonus from gear if needed (for my sorc 1 is enough)
Of course, Engine Guardian is useful but random in his help. Some classes/builds are less demaning of high regen and cost reduction than others. This also depends on the players skill (resource management) and the amount of CPs one has aquired. For me 1.4k magicka regen is just enough with 7/7 LA, 3x cost reduction glyphs and 230 CPs.
PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer0 -
Skiserony✭✭✭Shortly said, depends on what build you want to use. High dps build or high regen build.
High dps => you will use high mag/stam and spell/ weapon damage, which means your regen will be quite low. A 9% increase in regen won't be very effective and not very helpfull. Reduced cost however will be much more effective for sustain. (This is the case for most dps builds)
High regen => a tank or many builds in PvP use high regen builds, because it's necessary to stay alive, no resources = dead. They do this with drinks, CP and certain sets. Which means a 9% increased regen will increase it with a big deal, which makes it more effective than reduced cost because once you're out of resources (with red cost and no regen) you won't be able to regen resources.
So, very short: Reduced cost for high dps, regen for survivability.
(There are builds with both, and some builds will work fine without this reasoning, but that's the general idea)Edited by Skiserony on August 12, 2015 10:51AM0 -
Sykis✭I generally stick to more regen until VET level as magic pool is low and all abilities are not unlocked. Lower cost helps but I wouldn't try and focus on one or thee other until you have over 10K mana. Healers tend to benefit more from regen then cost reduction but again I never max one and disregard the other. I get better results for DPS with more cost reduction as when I run out of resources I still have light/heavy attacks for DPS and resource gaining. As a healer the with more focus in cost reduction you will need the resto staff passive for magic return after heavy attack. Just my thoughts.0
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lolzbuckets✭✭✭So I'd appreciate if someone who's better at statistics than I am and who maybe isn't doing on-the-back-of-a-napkin calculations would check my logic here, and also, let me know if any of my numbers are just flat-out wrong.
First off, this is based on two numbers that I'm not sure I remember correctly: a 1.3 second global cooldown, and resource regeneration ticking every 2 seconds.
If you can get your magicka regen high enough, you will never run out.
Example: if you have 2000 magicka regen and 0% spell cost reduction and spam a spell that costs 1000 magicka, you will expend 2000 magicka every 2.6 seconds and regenerate 2000 magicka every 2 seconds. Boom. Winning.
Issues: most good spells aren't that cheap, and getting that much magicka regen is difficult anyway.
Obviously, if you can get your magicka regen high enough to pull this off, it's the clear winner. But every 1% of spell cost reduction more than doubles the effective value of every point of magicka regeneration.
If you have 0% spell cost reduction, 0 magicka regen, and a 20k magicka pool, spamming a 2000 magicka spell every 1.3 seconds will run you out of mana in 13 seconds flat.
If you have 0% spell cost reduction, 1000 magicka regen, and a 20k magicka pool, spamming a 2000 magicka spell every 1.3 seconds will burn you out of mana in 18.2 seconds.
If you add a 10% spell cost reduction to that, that number goes up to 20.8 seconds. And unlike either of the previous examples, the next time your 2 second regen tick procs, you will have enough mana to immediately cast again.
Add to that the flat cost reduction enchantments available for jewelry, and it gets even better. Reducing the cost of a 2000 mana spell by 10% is nice, but then additionally reducing it by a flat 600 nearly halves its cost. And bear in mind that those 10% and 1000 numbers are...crap. If you can hit 1500 regen and 25% reduction, which yes, you easily can, then a magicka pool of 25000 will effectively be a pool of 31250 magicka, meaning that your 1500 magicka regeneration will proc several more times before you run out, assuming continuous cast spam.
The only situation I can see in which regen is flatly better than cost reduction is when your only job is to never put down your shield. If you have to do something besides block, cost reduction wins.4 -
lolzbuckets✭✭✭Of course, if we're talking PvP, you need to get your regen above a certain amount regardless of how much cost reduction you have, because no matter how long it takes you to run out, if you DO run out, you're shafted.
That said, once your regen is above a certain amount, cost reduction will still make your regen work better. So for PvP, it's kind of six of one, half a dozen of the other, but with a minimum safe range to start from.3 -
Skiserony✭✭✭lolzbuckets wrote: »So I'd appreciate if someone who's better at statistics than I am and who maybe isn't doing on-the-back-of-a-napkin calculations would check my logic here, and also, let me know if any of my numbers are just flat-out wrong.
First off, this is based on two numbers that I'm not sure I remember correctly: a 1.3 second global cooldown, and resource regeneration ticking every 2 seconds.
If you can get your magicka regen high enough, you will never run out.
Example: if you have 2000 magicka regen and 0% spell cost reduction and spam a spell that costs 1000 magicka, you will expend 2000 magicka every 2.6 seconds and regenerate 2000 magicka every 2 seconds. Boom. Winning.
Issues: most good spells aren't that cheap, and getting that much magicka regen is difficult anyway.
Obviously, if you can get your magicka regen high enough to pull this off, it's the clear winner. But every 1% of spell cost reduction more than doubles the effective value of every point of magicka regeneration.
If you have 0% spell cost reduction, 0 magicka regen, and a 20k magicka pool, spamming a 2000 magicka spell every 1.3 seconds will run you out of mana in 13 seconds flat.
If you have 0% spell cost reduction, 1000 magicka regen, and a 20k magicka pool, spamming a 2000 magicka spell every 1.3 seconds will burn you out of mana in 18.2 seconds.
If you add a 10% spell cost reduction to that, that number goes up to 20.8 seconds. And unlike either of the previous examples, the next time your 2 second regen tick procs, you will have enough mana to immediately cast again.
Add to that the flat cost reduction enchantments available for jewelry, and it gets even better. Reducing the cost of a 2000 mana spell by 10% is nice, but then additionally reducing it by a flat 600 nearly halves its cost. And bear in mind that those 10% and 1000 numbers are...crap. If you can hit 1500 regen and 25% reduction, which yes, you easily can, then a magicka pool of 25000 will effectively be a pool of 31250 magicka, meaning that your 1500 magicka regeneration will proc several more times before you run out, assuming continuous cast spam.
The only situation I can see in which regen is flatly better than cost reduction is when your only job is to never put down your shield. If you have to do something besides block, cost reduction wins.
And this is effective for all builds, except for high dps builds. A dps build with 2000 regen loses a lot of dps. You always have a small amount of regen even if you don' invest anything in it. So realistically it's up to the player how the sustain is. You can dump everything into one skill, or do such a rotation and tactic that with a really low regen you still never run out. That just requires some skill but it's the most effective way to dps.
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lolzbuckets✭✭✭lolzbuckets wrote: »So I'd appreciate if someone who's better at statistics than I am and who maybe isn't doing on-the-back-of-a-napkin calculations would check my logic here, and also, let me know if any of my numbers are just flat-out wrong.
First off, this is based on two numbers that I'm not sure I remember correctly: a 1.3 second global cooldown, and resource regeneration ticking every 2 seconds.
If you can get your magicka regen high enough, you will never run out.
Example: if you have 2000 magicka regen and 0% spell cost reduction and spam a spell that costs 1000 magicka, you will expend 2000 magicka every 2.6 seconds and regenerate 2000 magicka every 2 seconds. Boom. Winning.
Issues: most good spells aren't that cheap, and getting that much magicka regen is difficult anyway.
Obviously, if you can get your magicka regen high enough to pull this off, it's the clear winner. But every 1% of spell cost reduction more than doubles the effective value of every point of magicka regeneration.
If you have 0% spell cost reduction, 0 magicka regen, and a 20k magicka pool, spamming a 2000 magicka spell every 1.3 seconds will run you out of mana in 13 seconds flat.
If you have 0% spell cost reduction, 1000 magicka regen, and a 20k magicka pool, spamming a 2000 magicka spell every 1.3 seconds will burn you out of mana in 18.2 seconds.
If you add a 10% spell cost reduction to that, that number goes up to 20.8 seconds. And unlike either of the previous examples, the next time your 2 second regen tick procs, you will have enough mana to immediately cast again.
Add to that the flat cost reduction enchantments available for jewelry, and it gets even better. Reducing the cost of a 2000 mana spell by 10% is nice, but then additionally reducing it by a flat 600 nearly halves its cost. And bear in mind that those 10% and 1000 numbers are...crap. If you can hit 1500 regen and 25% reduction, which yes, you easily can, then a magicka pool of 25000 will effectively be a pool of 31250 magicka, meaning that your 1500 magicka regeneration will proc several more times before you run out, assuming continuous cast spam.
The only situation I can see in which regen is flatly better than cost reduction is when your only job is to never put down your shield. If you have to do something besides block, cost reduction wins.
And this is effective for all builds, except for high dps builds. A dps build with 2000 regen loses a lot of dps. You always have a small amount of regen even if you don' invest anything in it. So realistically it's up to the player how the sustain is. You can dump everything into one skill, or do such a rotation and tactic that with a really low regen you still never run out. That just requires some skill but it's the most effective way to dps.
I take issue with saying it's "the most effective" way, the same as I take issue with the concept of there being a "most effective" way to do any role. However, I also take issue with it because it's a flawed assertion. If you have ~500 stamina regen, which is about what you have without any increase to stamina regen, then you're going to run out of stamina after about 15-16 seconds of fighting.
How is that the best build in a fight that lasts for 30 seconds or more?0
