Make sorcerers more viable in PvE

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · August 2015

Sorcerers need more viability in PvE, as of writing this PvE leaderboards for vDSA on the northamerican server only has 10 sorc characters out of 400 available slots, that should say something as to how bad they are for PvE. I know they are apparently gods in pvp, but that shouldn't have to make them next to worthless for PvE endgame. Sorcerers need some better sustained dps or group healing/buffs to make them viable for PvE, and something needs to happen there if sorcs are to not die out completely in PvE.

Dracane · August 2015

I agree.
Zenimax was looking for ways to help Sorcerers pve dps without really changing anything about their pvp performance.
Lightning splash was an intelligent step. But this still didn't really help Sorcs to be on par with other classes dps.

My dream is, that each class pulls the same dps numbers. Might sound a bit stupid, but that's what I want.
I don't want to feel bad for playing 1 class, because other classes perform better.

An easy way to improve our dps performance, is to improve pets, espcially the Twilight and the Atronach. They must increase her damage and her attack speed (mainly her attack speed though, her slow attack speed is what's keeping her low). This can be achieved by changing the Master Summoner passive to give her like 15% more damage instead of 5% and increase her attack speed by 50% on Rank II . Then she would do 1 attack every 1,2 seconds, which would help more than you might expect. This is the easiest ways to improve pve, without changing pvp a lot.

Also the Atronach is not really worth it at the moment. We spam Overload and Overload is the only thing, bringing Sorcerer dps somewhere near other classes dps for a limited time frame. We need to save up our Ultimate for bosses, which is depressing and doesn't help our overall dps.
Suggestion here is to make the Atronach more viable by decreasing his cost to ensure a longer uptime.

This way we could drop him in regular dungeon fights to improve our overall dps and also to give an option besides Overload.

I usually don't do that, but @ZOS_GinaBruno I know you guys want to improve pet gameplay and I appreciate that, as they are the solution to solve the whole pve problem. Only tiny improvements are needed to achieve that and you wouldn't hurt pvp at all.

Merlin13KAGL · August 2015

Overload shouldn't be the be-all-end-all to obtain decent numbers, by any means, and there should be multiple ways for every class to get at least within the same range.

Shouldn't have to resort to bugs where melee weapons magically increase your Spell Damage.

Same with set gear and weapon choices (and elemental choices on those weapons).

Each class should have upsides and downsides, each allowing for a different playstyle without huge variances.

With the present implementation, there are probably less than 4 viable gear combinations per class (and I'm probably being generous) and fewer still weapon / skill combinations.

Everyone should have the option to be competitive in a reasonably well designed character. Not talking play (sloppy) as you want, but there should be more than what amounts to a handful of template builds.

They're fixing/adjusting some of this in the major, but there is still a long way to go.

actosh · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

I don't want to feel bad for playing 1 class, because other classes perform better.

Same feeling u get when playin Stam dk and compare it to some other classes ^^

ragespell · August 2015

+1 but i won't hold my breath. There is nothing on the pts patch notes that could make us think they're looking into it

dRudE · August 2015

Sorcs do fine at AoE PVE, I can hit over 100k dps regularly. It's single target boss fights that I struggle to hit over 15k sustained dps.

ragespell · August 2015

dRudE wrote: »

Sorcs do fine at AoE PVE, I can hit over 100k dps regularly. It's single target boss fights that I struggle to hit over 15k sustained dps.

Really? That would means 10 mobs hit with a 10k AOE skill. I don't see any skill that can do that much damage.

dRudE · August 2015

Prox det works in PVE too

ragespell · August 2015

dRudE wrote: »

Prox det works in PVE too

Damn, I don't have it yet

But every class has access to that skill, so it is not something that sorc do better than the rest.
Or am I missing something again?

SorataArisugawa · August 2015

Sadly I doubt, that we will se a increase of the Sorc PVE DMG, because we are mostly range and very bursty.

Because we are bursty Eric wont increase the DMG of our best spells.
Because we are range we "have" to do less DMG because, it is "harder" to play melee.
(thats the essence of what he said in several life streams)

So we wont see good sustained DMG for Sorc, especially if you don't want to play with pets.

As long Eric doesn't change his mind, this is the sad truth.

maxlacab16_ESO · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

An easy way to improve our dps performance, is to improve pets, espcially the Twilight and the Atronach.

Pets are mute in PVP IMO, and barely useful in PVE. I haven't slottet any during the entire year! And for the Atronach see below. I rather slot the Bound Armor along with Mage Light, which both need to be on all bars to stay active.

Add the coming requirement to slot a Vampire active to gain the passives, Sorc Vamps are left with two slots for DPS.
Sure, you could put the Vamp active on your Ult slot, but the Guild Ults Dawnbreaker and Meteor are both cheaper (100 and 200 vs. 275 Ult) and more effective IMO. And Sorc without Overload is just not smart.

Sorc DPS only shines in encounters with loads of mobs when our AoE hits (thankfully un-capped) numbers of mobs. But single target? Lame! Embarrassing! Nobody cares for Sorcs in those encounters!

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

I know they are apparently gods in pvp, but that shouldn't have to make them next to worthless for PvE endgame. Sorcerers need some better sustained dps or group healing/buffs to make them viable for PvE, and something needs to happen there if sorcs are to not die out completely in PvE.

I don't know about gods in PVP. My vr14 Sorc has 7x legendary gear, no masters and about 200 CPs. I believe I'm an OK player and can hold my own in a 1v1. But beyond that, getting pummeled by 2 or more equally lvld and outfitted enemies, survival is a toss-up. I have learned to live with my current strengths and weaknesses, including the Vamp penalties, and I do enjoy both PVP and PVE atm.

My experience in PST and PVP, with even better gear than I have on Live, with the new and additional nerfs to shields and damage, is totally disappointing. When Sorcs were glass cannons at some point in the past, they will be glass duds after the next patch.

Nerfed into the Ground!

I am lvling all my alts now on mostly heavy armor with one piece med and light for a chance of survival in PVP.
My Sorc will just quit PVP. No DPS, no survivability, no useful group buffs...just no fun to play anymore.

Oh_Skrivva · August 2015

Sorcs in pve are not out classed in the dps race. My sorcerer pulls 19-23k single target dps consistently. But the downfall to sorcerers Imo, is that to achieve that type of parse. I have to have both bars be setup for only single target only. I' have v14s of all classes. I don't have to change my entire bars completely with them when I run a dungeon. Maybe I would have to change a skill or 2 on them depending on what boss and it's mechanics are for the particular fight. But not entire bars. So what I have to do is set a macro to change my skills before my group initiates the boss fight, and than change it to aoe after for the trash mobs in between the boss fights. It is inconvenient to have to make my group wait for me to swap skills over and over.even though I set a macro with a add on to change my skills with a hit of a button. But sometimes the add on macro would bug out and not change all my skills correctly. So I still have to stop and double check bars before the battle. Also, I would like for the devs to come up with a way to not force sorcerers to use pets to achieve good dps. I currently don't use them on my bars. I do wish that Sorcs would get their own skill that can be spammable like the other classes do, so we can have a option to use that instead of force pulse spam until frag procs. Dks have flame lash, Temps has biting jabs, and news has strife. I feel that alot of the sorcerers abilities are useful for pvp and not enough abilities are viable for pve. But that's just my opinion. Everyone has a diff play style. What works for he/she may not work for another.

Dracane · August 2015

@maxlacab16_ESO True. I never said, pets are really usefull at the moment, they are fun abilities but nothing you would be using for serious builds. You always have to consider, that 1 pet requires 2 or even 3 slots in my case. Not only that the pet itself is too weak, I loose at least 2 valueable slots that I could use with other abilities to increase my damage or efficience.
And at the same time, it's extremely easy to make pets usefull, it doesn't take much effort.

@dRudE Aoe damage is not an argument actually

I was talking about sustained single target dps against bosses. Everyone can get astronomic numbers by using AoEs against monsters, as everyone can stack quite a few AoEs. But cute argument anyway

made me smile

@SorataArisugawa I would give away all my money for having a short chat with Eric. You don't even have to improve popular Sorcerer spells. Pets have to be usefull for something and since they are rather weak in pvp, they must be good for pve. They are the solution to help our DPS. Increasing the Twilights attack speed would make a huuuge difference, even though it might seem boring.

Dracane · August 2015

Oh_Skrivva wrote: »

Sorcs in pve are not out classed in the dps race. My sorcerer pulls 19-23k single target dps consistently. But the downfall to sorcerers Imo, is that to achieve that type of parse. I have to have both bars be setup for only single target only. I' have v14s of all classes. I don't have to change my entire bars completely with them when I run a dungeon. Maybe I would have to change a skill or 2 on them depending on what boss and it's mechanics are for the particular fight. But not entire bars. So what I have to do is set a macro to change my skills before my group initiates the boss fight, and than change it to aoe after for the trash mobs in between the boss fights. It is inconvenient to have to make my group wait for me to swap skills over and over.even though I set a macro with a add on to change my skills with a hit of a button. But sometimes the add on macro would bug out and not change all my skills correctly. So I still have to stop and double check bars before the battle. Also, I would like for the devs to come up with a way to not force sorcerers to use pets to achieve good dps. I currently don't use them on my bars. I do wish that Sorcs would get their own skill that can be spammable like the other classes do, so we can have a option to use that instead of force pulse spam until frag procs. Dks have flame lash, Temps has biting jabs, and news has strife. I feel that alot of the sorcerers abilities are useful for pvp and not enough abilities are viable for pve. But that's just my opinion. Everyone has a diff play style. What works for he/she may not work for another.

Of course you could use soul trap and each laughable DoT in the game to achieve such numbers

But as you said, this is highly unefficient and hard to manage. other classes only need to spam 1 ability to get over 15k dps or far more, Sorcerer needs so many abilities and he never even reaches the dps of other classes.

Sorcerers in pvp are the easiest class to predict, but somehow we still succeed. Don't even want to think about it

it works, that's all I need to know.
But all these abilities are bad for dps especially in dungeons. Force Shock is way too weak and we rely so much on it for our dps. It's sad

But well.... there is an opportunity to give Sorcerer a spamable class ability that is on par with other classes

*looks at Mage's Fury*

maxlacab16_ESO · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

. Increasing...attack speed would make a huuuge difference, even though it might seem boring.

I agree with a pet attack speed increase. Maybe even add a proc to the pets? Like the heal of the Twilight, but in addition to that, something random? Buff, debuff, heal, magica, anything to make them worthwhile occupying a slot!

Tallowby · August 2015

My Soc/Vamp managed to complete the 'Lost City of Na-Totambu" Public Dungeon (VR9) taking on groups of 6-7 solo and she is only VR 4 using VR1 gear and only Dual Wielding primal clubs.

Cleared all mobs...

Give us some time more sorc's will make leaderboard.

Dracane · August 2015

maxlacab16_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

. Increasing...attack speed would make a huuuge difference, even though it might seem boring.

I agree with a pet attack speed increase. Maybe even add a proc to the pets? Like the heal of the Twilight, but in addition to that, something random? Buff, debuff, heal, magica, anything to make them worthwhile occupying a slot!

Great idea. But that would only be really usefull in pvp I suppose. I think it's pretty much impossible to change anything about their pvp performance.

The Twilight must become a solution, to improve Sorcerers possible dps to be attractive and on par with other classes.
Not going to talk about the heal of the Matriarch.... it's not good

SorataArisugawa · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

[...]
@SorataArisugawa I would give away all my money for having a short chat with Eric. You don't even have to improve popular Sorcerer spells. Pets have to be usefull for something and since they are rather weak in pvp, they must be good for pve. They are the solution to help our DPS. Increasing the Twilights attack speed would make a huuuge difference, even though it might seem boring.

Yeah but changes in the direction of making pets strong enough to summon them are not made aswell with not buffing our other DMG spells. I would like to play a lightning sorc without pets. This does not enough DMG. But even with pets you don't do enough.

Eric doesn't want to change sorc much. That is what I can see so far. And with this little steps he makes, we wont be competitive for a long time. If we'll ever be competitive in PVE is highly doubtful too...

SorataArisugawa · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

[...]

Force Shock is way too weak and we rely so much on it for our dps. It's sad But well.... there is an opportunity to give Sorcerer a spamable class ability that is on par with other classes *looks at Mage's Fury*

We could dream about it. That would be soooo great.

...But I think we have to wait for spellcrafting befor we get an spamable and effective cast as a mage. I don't get, why Eric really thought we could use Crystal Fragment for this... If I see, what other classes could do with there class abilitys. And we got this, which got low DMG compared because it stuns...

Dracane · August 2015

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

[...]
@SorataArisugawa I would give away all my money for having a short chat with Eric. You don't even have to improve popular Sorcerer spells. Pets have to be usefull for something and since they are rather weak in pvp, they must be good for pve. They are the solution to help our DPS. Increasing the Twilights attack speed would make a huuuge difference, even though it might seem boring.

Yeah but changes in the direction of making pets strong enough to summon them are not made aswell with not buffing our other DMG spells. I would like to play a lightning sorc without pets. This does not enough DMG. But even with pets you don't do enough.

Eric doesn't want to change sorc much. That is what I can see so far. And with this little steps he makes, we wont be competitive for a long time. If we'll ever be competitive in PVE is highly doubtful too...

I don't understand why he doesn't want to do that though.

I appreciate his attempts so far, but you know...

This is why I'm trying to make reasonable suggestions for how to improve Sorcerer without being afraid they could become stronger in pvp. If we tell them to improve the normal Sorcerer skills, they're not going to like it.
Improving pets is easy and efficient. And saying you don't want to use pets even if they help your dps (which is not the case as it stands now) then it's like a dk saying he refuses to use Whip for his dps. You have to use what your class offers. Right now however, Sorcerer doesn't offer that much.

Dracane · August 2015

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

[...]

Force Shock is way too weak and we rely so much on it for our dps. It's sad But well.... there is an opportunity to give Sorcerer a spamable class ability that is on par with other classes *looks at Mage's Fury*

We could dream about it. That would be soooo great.

...But I think we have to wait for spellcrafting befor we get an spamable and effective cast as a mage. I don't get, why Eric really thought we could use Crystal Fragment for this... If I see, what other classes could do with there class abilitys. And we got this, which got low DMG compared because it stunes...

Haha I remember that crystal shard thing. And even with spellcrafting, this is available for all classes and they can profit from it as well and might become even stronger.

Btw, I tested it yesterday. Someone told me, crystal shard spam with light attack is better than force shock and light attack. (was thinking the same) Not true though, crystal shard spam is bad, force shock less worse to say it this way

Tested it in a 40 second fight to have a limit and see, what both do in a 40 seconds fight
I know he wasn't talking about crystal shard spam, but I thought it's interesting to know.

SorataArisugawa · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

[...]
@SorataArisugawa I would give away all my money for having a short chat with Eric. You don't even have to improve popular Sorcerer spells. Pets have to be usefull for something and since they are rather weak in pvp, they must be good for pve. They are the solution to help our DPS. Increasing the Twilights attack speed would make a huuuge difference, even though it might seem boring.

Yeah but changes in the direction of making pets strong enough to summon them are not made aswell with not buffing our other DMG spells. I would like to play a lightning sorc without pets. This does not enough DMG. But even with pets you don't do enough.

Eric doesn't want to change sorc much. That is what I can see so far. And with this little steps he makes, we wont be competitive for a long time. If we'll ever be competitive in PVE is highly doubtful too...

I don't understand why he doesn't want to do that though. I appreciate his attempts so far, but you know...

This is why I'm trying to make reasonable suggestions for how to improve Sorcerer without being afraid they could become stronger in pvp. If we tell them to improve the normal Sorcerer skills, they're not going to like it.
Improving pets is easy and efficient. And saying you don't want to use pets even if they help your dps (which is not the case as it stands now) then it's like a dk saying he refuses to use Whip for his dps. You have to use what your class offers. Right now however, Sorcerer doesn't offer that much.

Yeah I know. I would use anything, if it helps me (except for bound armor. I hate hate hate the skin xD) with my DPS.
But if I could wish something it would be a sorc without pets and good sustained DPS (I would take the Atronach, I like him a a little^^)

Carter_DC · August 2015

On EU, we actually got 14 Sorcs in the VDSA leaderboard.
But i'm not saying EU players are better sorc, just that we're slower at figuring out you got to play a Templar if you want to be in the leaderboard. (except for Senaxu of course)

BTW Sorc have the best burst dps in this game. Downside is it's just ultimate burst and doesn't last for long. but still.
(i can pull 20k easily on bosses)

Maybe Indeed boosting liquid lighting. That's already a pretty decent spell, but could be a bit better.

SorataArisugawa · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

[...]

Force Shock is way too weak and we rely so much on it for our dps. It's sad But well.... there is an opportunity to give Sorcerer a spamable class ability that is on par with other classes *looks at Mage's Fury*

We could dream about it. That would be soooo great.

...But I think we have to wait for spellcrafting befor we get an spamable and effective cast as a mage. I don't get, why Eric really thought we could use Crystal Fragment for this... If I see, what other classes could do with there class abilitys. And we got this, which got low DMG compared because it stunes...

Haha I remember that crystal shard thing. And even with spellcrafting, this is available for all classes and they can profit from it as well and might become even stronger.

Btw, I tested it yesterday. Someone told me, crystal shard spam with light attack is better than force shock and light attack. (was thinking the same) Not true though, crystal shard spam is bad, force shock less worse to say it this way Tested it in a 40 second fight to have a limit and see, what both do in a 40 seconds fight
I know he wasn't talking about crystal shard spam, but I thought it's interesting to know.

Yeah this skill is a all in one. Stun, proc and DMG. It is clear that it can't do much DMG when you spam it.Would be insane.

SorataArisugawa · August 2015

Carter_DC wrote: »

On EU, we actually got 14 Sorcs in the VDSA leaderboard.
But i'm not saying EU players are better sorc, just that we're slower at figuring out you got to play a Templar if you want to be in the leaderboard. (except for Senaxu of course)

BTW Sorc have the best burst dps in this game. Downside is it's just ultimate burst and doesn't last for long. but still.
(i can pull 20k easily on bosses)

Maybe Indeed boosting liquid lighting. That's already a pretty decent spell, but could be a bit better.

Yeah because of the burst we can't have nice things. That is the short form of what Eric said

Dracane · August 2015

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

[...]
@SorataArisugawa I would give away all my money for having a short chat with Eric. You don't even have to improve popular Sorcerer spells. Pets have to be usefull for something and since they are rather weak in pvp, they must be good for pve. They are the solution to help our DPS. Increasing the Twilights attack speed would make a huuuge difference, even though it might seem boring.

Yeah but changes in the direction of making pets strong enough to summon them are not made aswell with not buffing our other DMG spells. I would like to play a lightning sorc without pets. This does not enough DMG. But even with pets you don't do enough.

Eric doesn't want to change sorc much. That is what I can see so far. And with this little steps he makes, we wont be competitive for a long time. If we'll ever be competitive in PVE is highly doubtful too...

I don't understand why he doesn't want to do that though. I appreciate his attempts so far, but you know...

This is why I'm trying to make reasonable suggestions for how to improve Sorcerer without being afraid they could become stronger in pvp. If we tell them to improve the normal Sorcerer skills, they're not going to like it.
Improving pets is easy and efficient. And saying you don't want to use pets even if they help your dps (which is not the case as it stands now) then it's like a dk saying he refuses to use Whip for his dps. You have to use what your class offers. Right now however, Sorcerer doesn't offer that much.

Yeah I know. I would use anything, if it helps me (except for bound armor. I hate hate hate the skin xD) with my DPS.
But if I could wish something it would be a sorc without pets and good sustained DPS (I would take the Atronach, I like him a a little^^)

No need for bound armor, Magelight is better. Only 1% less Magicka, but 10% more crit chance. And when using both, you sacrifise too many skillslots. It's possible to have both, but this would never work for me. Even now, I have to sacrifise too much.

As long as Bound armor doesn't give a significant amount of Magicka, it's not worth to be slotted. Considering Nightblades get 8% magicka for free for only slotting one Ultimate.

Rescorla_ESO · August 2015

How much more DPS are non-sorcs achieving in PVE due to the sharpened mace bug? Once that is fixed, what is a disparity now on live may not be as much of an issue anymore.

SorataArisugawa · August 2015

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

How much more DPS are non-sorcs achieving in PVE due to the sharpened mace bug? Once that is fixed, what is a disparity now on live may not be as much of an issue anymore.

I am interested in this changes, but I doubt, that this will change our position. The guys I know, don't use this bug and are way above all what I can do with my sorc.

Dracane · August 2015

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

How much more DPS are non-sorcs achieving in PVE due to the sharpened mace bug? Once that is fixed, what is a disparity now on live may not be as much of an issue anymore.

I am interested in this changes, but I doubt, that this will change our position. The guys I know, don't use this bug and are way above all what I can do with my sorc.

Yea this bug doesn't matter, even less for pve (what we were talking about)
Stamina attacks hit really really hard at the moment. With the mace bug removed, they will be lower, yes. But still higher than magical damage because weapon damage is so easy to raise compared to spell damage and they are supposed to hit that hard I think.

ragespell · August 2015

Oh_Skrivva wrote: »

Sorcs in pve are not out classed in the dps race. My sorcerer pulls 19-23k single target dps consistently.

Do you mean during a overload spam? If not may I ask you your setup?

Thank you in advance

Septimus_Magna · August 2015

Tallowby wrote: »

My Soc/Vamp managed to complete the 'Lost City of Na-Totambu" Public Dungeon (VR9) taking on groups of 6-7 solo and she is only VR 4 using VR1 gear and only Dual Wielding primal clubs. Cleared all mobs...

Give us some time more sorc's will make leaderboard.

How does this improve single target dps for sorcs?

This only proves that most pve is terribly easy and that the public dungeon 'group challenges' can be completed under-leveled, solo and even without using potions if you have a decent build and some player skill.

I think there should be better/longer DoTs (deadric prey should be changed), instant damage skills (one mages fury morph) and powerful ultimates (makes negates useful again). Sorcs supposed to be lighting wizards by they only have 2 damage skills, a louzy execute (which doesnt even increases dps) and small lightning aoe (which is only useful on stationary targets). There should be at least a chain lightning attack which leaves a DoT on the enemy, just something different than force pulse to use constantly.