Surprise Attack and Concealed Weapon hits too hard

BugCollector · August 2015

It's an instant ability with insane damage.

ScruffyWhiskers · August 2015

Concealed? On pts? I've got 2k spell damage and 29k magicka and my concealed weapon is a shadow of itself compared to live. Maybe I've just been running into hard core types with lots of spell resistance but I'm lucky if I crit for 4k on pts.....a normal hit is like 2.5 to 3k. Without the apprentice mundus spell penetration bonus and the ability to hit roll dodgers, concealed weapon is a little lack luster. I still slot if for the stealth speed bonus but it could really use an offensive base damage boost if the damage reduction is going to stay 50% in cyrodiil.

Edit: And I was all happy thinking the change to nirn was going to be a big boost for concealed weapon. The damage I get now feels like a super nirn boost playing on live.

OGLezard · August 2015

@ScruffyWhiskers you shush sir!!

Seriously though, I have seen some insane damage numbers from people on pts, and I have even been killed stupid quick. Most of these are coming from NBs and Templars. No I am not screaming nerf them. Just putting my two cents in ^_^

SturgeHammer · August 2015

Never really had much a problem with concealed weapon, but surprise attack does hit annoyingly hard. I think the Burst damage potential on these abilities should stay high but be tied more closely to the "attacks from cloak or stealth matter" theme. I would propose that the base damage be dramatically reduced (Half), but hits from stealth or cloak would deal about 25% more damage than the current base damage on live server. I think this would keep the burst damage high, but add some work to spamming it for any real value.

eliisra · August 2015

Reality check? Concealed Weapon on live does like 2-3k dmg max on nirn stacked targets (that's 90% of all PvP'ers). You cant kill anything with that alone.

Surprise Attack, on the other hand, is out of out control. Normal instant spam skills should not do 10-12k dmg. But the issue is not Surprise Attacks base dmg. Many instant or close to instant stamina based abilities will take half your health or more in one go.

Issue is being unable to mitigate physical dmg, neither with armor or or with CP, on live. It's a massive design flaw combined with ZoS inability to fix bugs.

You cant even mitigate the crit dmg effectively(another reason Surprise Attack hits so hard with NB passives), since the CP passive that reduces critical dmg taken, is bugged as well lol.

Ezareth · August 2015

I can't stand surprise attack, I've tried several times last night on PTS to use it as well as on live and compared to wrecking blow it's pretty weak. The primary advantage other than the Fracture is the fact that it is instant cast. Wrecking blow is cheaper, does more damage, adds empower, and has a CC mechanic built in that is useful against both players and NPCs, plus it benefits from executioner.

OGLezard · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

I can't stand surprise attack, I've tried several times last night on PTS to use it as well as on live and compared to wrecking blow it's pretty weak. The primary advantage other than the Fracture is the fact that it is instant cast. Wrecking blow is cheaper, does more damage, adds empower, and has a CC mechanic built in that is useful against both players and NPCs, plus it benefits from executioner.

A lot of their design choices confuse me lol

Alcast · August 2015

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

Concealed? On pts? I've got 2k spell damage and 29k magicka and my concealed weapon is a shadow of itself compared to live. Maybe I've just been running into hard core types with lots of spell resistance but I'm lucky if I crit for 4k on pts.....a normal hit is like 2.5 to 3k. Without the apprentice mundus spell penetration bonus and the ability to hit roll dodgers, concealed weapon is a little lack luster. I still slot if for the stealth speed bonus but it could really use an offensive base damage boost if the damage reduction is going to stay 50% in cyrodiil.

Edit: And I was all happy thinking the change to nirn was going to be a big boost for concealed weapon. The damage I get now feels like a super nirn boost playing on live.

good troll man, good troll xD

MCMancub · August 2015

They realistically cannot touch Surprise Attack (which is in a fine position, I'll add) without destroying stamina NB DPS in PvE.

pmn100b16_ESO · August 2015

Alcast wrote: »

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

Concealed? On pts? I've got 2k spell damage and 29k magicka and my concealed weapon is a shadow of itself compared to live. Maybe I've just been running into hard core types with lots of spell resistance but I'm lucky if I crit for 4k on pts.....a normal hit is like 2.5 to 3k. Without the apprentice mundus spell penetration bonus and the ability to hit roll dodgers, concealed weapon is a little lack luster. I still slot if for the stealth speed bonus but it could really use an offensive base damage boost if the damage reduction is going to stay 50% in cyrodiil.

Edit: And I was all happy thinking the change to nirn was going to be a big boost for concealed weapon. The damage I get now feels like a super nirn boost playing on live.

good troll man, good troll xD

With 1950 spell damage and 30k magicka, my concealed weapons hit for 2-2.5k. Whats the troll?

FENGRUSH · August 2015

MCMancub wrote: »

They realistically cannot touch Surprise Attack (which is in a fine position, I'll add) without destroying stamina NB DPS in PvE.

I wish sorcs had a stam skill we could argue about not nerfing as to not mess up the DPS that doesnt exist for them.

actosh · August 2015

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

Concealed? On pts? I've got 2k spell damage and 29k magicka and my concealed weapon is a shadow of itself compared to live. Maybe I've just been running into hard core types with lots of spell resistance but I'm lucky if I crit for 4k on pts.....a normal hit is like 2.5 to 3k. Without the apprentice mundus spell penetration bonus and the ability to hit roll dodgers, concealed weapon is a little lack luster. I still slot if for the stealth speed bonus but it could really use an offensive base damage boost if the damage reduction is going to stay 50% in cyrodiil.

Edit: And I was all happy thinking the change to nirn was going to be a big boost for concealed weapon. The damage I get now feels like a super nirn boost playing on live.

good troll man, good troll xD

With 1950 spell damage and 30k magicka, my concealed weapons hit for 2-2.5k. Whats the troll?

Cant be true at all. Thats what he was tryin to say ^^

pmn100b16_ESO · August 2015

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

Concealed? On pts? I've got 2k spell damage and 29k magicka and my concealed weapon is a shadow of itself compared to live. Maybe I've just been running into hard core types with lots of spell resistance but I'm lucky if I crit for 4k on pts.....a normal hit is like 2.5 to 3k. Without the apprentice mundus spell penetration bonus and the ability to hit roll dodgers, concealed weapon is a little lack luster. I still slot if for the stealth speed bonus but it could really use an offensive base damage boost if the damage reduction is going to stay 50% in cyrodiil.

Edit: And I was all happy thinking the change to nirn was going to be a big boost for concealed weapon. The damage I get now feels like a super nirn boost playing on live.

good troll man, good troll xD

With 1950 spell damage and 30k magicka, my concealed weapons hit for 2-2.5k. Whats the troll?

Edit, I just got one for 3.5k. Hardly OP.

Master_Kas · August 2015

Most damage on PTS from concealed/surprise attack is pathetic, even buffed from stealth (both real "sneak" and invis)

Tough will do more testing when EU char copy is done with proper gear .

Seems like someone is jelly of nbs instant-dps skills :O "Insane damage".. Not on PTS atleast

MCMancub · August 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

They realistically cannot touch Surprise Attack (which is in a fine position, I'll add) without destroying stamina NB DPS in PvE.

I wish sorcs had a stam skill we could argue about not nerfing as to not mess up the DPS that doesnt exist for them.

I agree, but that doesn't mean NB deserves a nerf. Nothing about Surprise Attack is overpowered at the moment. It's right where it should be. It does moderate damage in PvP while being a staple for PvE. Stam Sorcs need an ability like that as well.

actosh · August 2015

MCMancub wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

They realistically cannot touch Surprise Attack (which is in a fine position, I'll add) without destroying stamina NB DPS in PvE.

I wish sorcs had a stam skill we could argue about not nerfing as to not mess up the DPS that doesnt exist for them.

I agree, but that doesn't mean NB deserves a nerf. Nothing about Surprise Attack is overpowered at the moment. It's right where it should be. It does moderate damage in PvP while being a staple for PvE. Stam Sorcs need an ability like that as well.

Maybe Sorcs will have more luck with it than we Dks have

. I would hope so that u sorcs get one ^^

SturgeHammer · August 2015

MCMancub wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

They realistically cannot touch Surprise Attack (which is in a fine position, I'll add) without destroying stamina NB DPS in PvE.

I wish sorcs had a stam skill we could argue about not nerfing as to not mess up the DPS that doesnt exist for them.

I agree, but that doesn't mean NB deserves a nerf. Nothing about Surprise Attack is overpowered at the moment. It's right where it should be. It does moderate damage in PvP while being a staple for PvE. Stam Sorcs need an ability like that as well.

I've always thought the easiest way for ZOS to add a Stam Sorc melee attack would be to add a re-activation to Crit Surge similar to grim focus but simply triggered by being in melee range. This re-activation would have a Stam cost and consume the Surge Buffs to unleash a powerful instant cast melee attack that scales with stamina and weapon damage.

ScruffyWhiskers · August 2015

Alcast wrote: »

good troll man, good troll xD

Come up with a magicka nb build that can get 6k hits on an average target with concealed weapon and I will be really grateful. Maybe I'm just missing it. I'm not a great theory crafter or anything. Lord knows I got owned by a level 37 the first day 1.6 came out and I was running around with my beloved stygian still trying to play a hybrid lol.

If you are a magicka MELEE nb what have you got. Lotus Fan got a nice front end buff. But you spamming a gap closer isn't really good form unless your are riding a bolting sorc. Impale is tricky...the timing that is. Stam nb's have all those weapon lines to pull from with some pretty nice melee skills. Magicka nb has to use a lot more finesse. Having a sub par main skill like concealed weapon is going to hurt.

Strider_Roshin · August 2015

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

Concealed? On pts? I've got 2k spell damage and 29k magicka and my concealed weapon is a shadow of itself compared to live. Maybe I've just been running into hard core types with lots of spell resistance but I'm lucky if I crit for 4k on pts.....a normal hit is like 2.5 to 3k. Without the apprentice mundus spell penetration bonus and the ability to hit roll dodgers, concealed weapon is a little lack luster. I still slot if for the stealth speed bonus but it could really use an offensive base damage boost if the damage reduction is going to stay 50% in cyrodiil.

Edit: And I was all happy thinking the change to nirn was going to be a big boost for concealed weapon. The damage I get now feels like a super nirn boost playing on live.

good troll man, good troll xD

With 1950 spell damage and 30k magicka, my concealed weapons hit for 2-2.5k. Whats the troll?

He's probably calling you a troll because I have 9k magicka, and 1400 spell power, and even I can hit the numbers you're throwing out there.

rb2001 · August 2015

I personally found the pairing utterly useless, but I understand that it all depends on what you build around.

Spend a lot of Magicka to cloak, which takes time, and thus loses DPS, spend another lot of magicka to do a 3700 damage attack.

Vs.

Spam-weave Strife morph that does near the same amount of damage as Concealed (relative damage for me is Concealed 3700 vs. Strife 3400) for way less magicka cost (909 for Strife vs. 1800 x2 for cloak - Concealed combo).

pmn100b16_ESO · August 2015

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

Concealed? On pts? I've got 2k spell damage and 29k magicka and my concealed weapon is a shadow of itself compared to live. Maybe I've just been running into hard core types with lots of spell resistance but I'm lucky if I crit for 4k on pts.....a normal hit is like 2.5 to 3k. Without the apprentice mundus spell penetration bonus and the ability to hit roll dodgers, concealed weapon is a little lack luster. I still slot if for the stealth speed bonus but it could really use an offensive base damage boost if the damage reduction is going to stay 50% in cyrodiil.

Edit: And I was all happy thinking the change to nirn was going to be a big boost for concealed weapon. The damage I get now feels like a super nirn boost playing on live.

good troll man, good troll xD

With 1950 spell damage and 30k magicka, my concealed weapons hit for 2-2.5k. Whats the troll?

He's probably calling you a troll because I have 9k magicka, and 1400 spell power, and even I can hit the numbers you're throwing out there.

Just jumped on pts for 5 mins and attacked 3 people. Here is the results.

My stats (template NB pts)

http://i57.tinypic.com/21jc5xv.png

Concealed weapon hit:

http://i59.tinypic.com/4v2tuf.png

All the Harness Magicka/Hardened Ward Absorbs are concealed weapon hits:

http://i58.tinypic.com/ejczeb.png

Conceled weapon hits and crits:

http://i58.tinypic.com/50go5z.png

Conclusion: Concealed weapon so OP, pls nerf.

ApeXiTT · August 2015

They don't hit any where near as hard as they do on the live server so not sure what you are talking about.

ScruffyWhiskers · August 2015

You know it irks me to be called a troll and a liar. So I just hopped on to the pts to test out my trusty concealed weapon.

Scruffy Whiskers, Magicka Melee NB Extraordinaire

29.8k Magicka
2089 Spell Damage
2 Nirnhoned Magus Swords
10 Points in Spell Erosion - 5%
61 Points in Thauma = roughly 19% can't remember exactly

I went and hit guys with concealed weapon and then politely inquired about their spell resistance

Test 1
Spell Resistance 33,460
Concealed Weapon non crit 2,433

Test 2
Spell Resistance 11,214
Concealed Weapon non crit 2,996

Test 3
Spell Resistance 13,764
Concealed Weapon non crit 2,553

Test 4 - A sorc whose name basically said that I can't go through his shields.....and he was right lol
Spell Resistance 11k
Concealed Weapon non crit 2,492 + shield absorbed 401

Edit for Thauma CP data

Second Edit: I was wearing 5 Light, 1 Heavy, 1 Medium so I had the light armor Concentration II bonus

ScruffyWhiskers · August 2015

Nice job pmn! That Trappur guy was the one who had the 33k resistance for me lol

pmn100b16_ESO · August 2015

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

Nice job pmn! That Trappur guy was the one who had the 33k resistance for me lol

Yeah you went the whole hog and got some hard stats. It obviously easier to call someone a troll and a liar in a 5 second forum post than it is to actually go and test on pts for 5 minutes and get a clue.

omfgitsbatman · August 2015

Yeah, I have similar stats to @pmn100b16_ESO and @ScruffyWhiskers. I can confirm that I am getting very similar numbers from my concealed weapon. There is no trolling going on there.

Most of my attacks on pts are hitting like wet noodles. If I get kills, it's because I am wearing down the opponent's stam and getting a good combo of skills to hit very close to each other while they are feared... Like proxy det going off at the same time I heavy attack right before using a merciless resolve proc along with an ultimate. It's incredibly hard to pull off, but when I do, it's a lot of damage. Either that, or I'm using the NPC's to do most of my dirty work

You might think that concealed weapon hurts more than it does if people open on you like I do. I typically open from stealth with a fully charged heavy attack and a concealed weapon that hit at almost exactly the same time.

xylena · August 2015

ScruffyWhiskers · August 2015

I want that! LOL

Soul Harvest buffed all those follow up SA by 20% and it already hits harder than CW.

xylena · August 2015

i've been playing magicka nb a fair amount on PTS and concealed hits nowhere nearly as hard as surprise... same thing with DK lava whip, i'm lucky to crit a player for 5k on a power lash even with 30k magicka and 3k spell dmg

part of the problem is still the insane amount of physical armor penetration everyone has from bad math on sharpened

Domander · August 2015

xylena wrote: »

Soul harvest bonus + crit + super high weapon damage I'd guess.

Yeah surprise attack will generally do more because of the debuff and the ability to get higher weapon damage.

The way things are being calculated seems to make damage increases more effective relative to live.

I think this might be changed in the next patch. If not, damage buffs ftw.

All that said, the OP is ridiculous.

Dracane · August 2015

Funny how people bump out arguments like 'Surprise attack doesn't hit as hard as on live'
No attack hits as hard as on live, this affects every single ability. But the proportions are the same as on live.
Suprise attack hits as hard as before compared to other abilities.

Only wanted to add that.