If you scale conjured ward and morphs off health with sufficient extra scaling to allow for magicka build survival, then you just make stamina builds shields op (sorcerers that is). The problem is a fundamental sorcerer build issue as sorcerers have limited means of healing, much reduced mobility (bolt escape can no longer be called great mobility and everyone can get expedition buff) and have no credible reason in their passives to stack anything but magicka (and this is comming from a stamina sorcerer btw). If surge was more reliable, clannfear heal did not have as long a cast time, bolt escape did not cost the earth, and there were some passives that encouraged or required anything other than light armour / high magicka and spell power, then maybe shields could be health based...

Of course there are other options... like having surge repair shields on the power surge morph. But tbh they would be tricky to implement for mediocre benefit.

Best to see changes, test them and report.

andypappb16_ESO wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Thats why we are asking to scale it from health. It can still scale better than blazing and ignious but it would be good for stam sorcs and there would be no mages running around with 14 k life in pvp still doing fine thanks to their shields

@Springt-Über-Zwerge

As I suggested 2 people before, you also should read my Post on Page 3 (The HUGE one, cant miss it).
It answers many questions, including why Scaling on Health just CANT work for a sorc.

And I have to agree with you, scaling on Health benefits Stam Sorc BUT!
People dont understand its a little more than just changing the way a shield for sorc works and how it affects many other things.

Well if I had your shield as a templar I would run around with 14k life and 40k magicka in pvp just because I wouldnt need the life but since I dont have it I need 20k+ life without having any benefit from it other than surviving massive burst damage so why should it be different for sorcs?
What I suggest: if sorcs have 20k+ life too they have the same amount of shields the average sorc in pvp has atm that would be no nerf for your shield you would just have to decide between damage and surviveability like every other class has to

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Well if I had your shield as a templar I would run around with 14k life and 40k magicka in pvp just because I wouldnt need the life but since I dont have it I need 20k+ life without having any benefit from it other than surviving massive burst damage so why should it be different for sorcs?
What I suggest: if sorcs have 20k+ life too they have the same amount of shields the average sorc in pvp has atm that would be no nerf for your shield you would just have to decide between damage and surviveability like every other class has to

To the above...

You couldn't even have only 14k HP in PvP if your tried. Certainly not with anything like >30k Magicka.

With Undaunted Mettle passive (5l/1m/1h) and food (not drinks) you get a minimum of 20k HP. That is without any attributes to HP, or any HP enchants, or any HP set-bonuses, or any HP racial/class passives.

If you used drinks instead of food, or didn't have Undaunted Mettle you probably wouldn't even make 30k magicka, let alone 40k on a templar.

35k Magicka is probably the most you could aim for with 300-400 CPs, unless you exploited double mundus and overload bug on a sorc.

Anyhow. My opinion has always been that all wards should scale off Magicka and nothing else. Cause Wards are the primary defense mechanic of magicka builds (like resto heals also scale with max magicka, not HP).

In my opinion survivability should be:
- Heavy Armor: High mitigation, increased heals received and low cost block
- Medium Armor: Medium mitigation and dodge
- Light Armor: Almost nothing mitigation, but Wards.

Ironically ward-spamming, infini-dodge and permablock were not that much of a thing in 1.5 because of soft-caps. Now, now I don't even understand the direction they are taking with all the changes.

Absolutely amazing that these nerf Sorc NB skilless macro one-shoters are still trying to fabricate this ridiculous argument to get more free kills set up for IC.

I would suggest they get off the forums and practice in-game more, because once you have a moderate amount of skill, the counters to BE spamming Sorcs become self-evident.

'Shields from health for Sorcs'?... what laughably transparent self-interest from these FOTM playing 'nerf-herders'...

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Well if I had your shield as a templar I would run around with 14k life and 40k magicka in pvp just because I wouldnt need the life but since I dont have it I need 20k+ life without having any benefit from it other than surviving massive burst damage so why should it be different for sorcs?

Sorry to disappoint. But even with a 14k shield as a templar you would die way faster than a sorc.

You dont have the mobility and escape of a sorc to disengage at will and re-cast the shield

You get locked down soon enough and than that shield is gone and you're dead.

That's also why templars + DK cant go full magicka. Not because of how Sun Shield stacks. They need extra stamina, stamina recovery and block, dodge and cc break reduction, since they cant get the *** out.

Soris wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

andypappb16_ESO wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Thats why we are asking to scale it from health. It can still scale better than blazing and ignious but it would be good for stam sorcs and there would be no mages running around with 14 k life in pvp still doing fine thanks to their shields

@Springt-Über-Zwerge

As I suggested 2 people before, you also should read my Post on Page 3 (The HUGE one, cant miss it).
It answers many questions, including why Scaling on Health just CANT work for a sorc.

And I have to agree with you, scaling on Health benefits Stam Sorc BUT!
People dont understand its a little more than just changing the way a shield for sorc works and how it affects many other things.

Well if I had your shield as a templar I would run around with 14k life and 40k magicka in pvp just because I wouldnt need the life but since I dont have it I need 20k+ life without having any benefit from it other than surviving massive burst damage so why should it be different for sorcs?
What I suggest: if sorcs have 20k+ life too they have the same amount of shields the average sorc in pvp has atm that would be no nerf for your shield you would just have to decide between damage and surviveability like every other class has to

No. You Templar can put everything into Magicka or Spell damage and would deal more damage and would have stronger and more heals, Therefore you have damage AND surviveability, Same goes to other classes.
There are so many survivial tools in this game that become more efficient the more points you put into your damage stats.

The Sorcerers tool is his shield. Could you please stop pretending that Sorc is the only class being capable of having more damage and survivieability by increasing damage stats ? Each class does.

Umm heals are only one part of templar defence that is no different for others as a self heal such as healing ward and other heals.
Go ahaed, put all points into magicka, bump it to the moon without any health enchantments for shield. No matter if your flash heal heals for 5k or 50k, any timed cc and burst will kill you if you don't have any active shield as a light armor build.

With 20k health, you have 3k point blazing shield in Cyrodiil. This will not help you to stand ground.
So a templar have to sacrifice his damage and invest into health and/or stamina regen for survivability.

And yes Sorc is the only(best) class being capable of having more damage and survivability by increasing damage stats. And now block and dodge has been nerfed. Sorc stays supreme on this subject

Thank you!

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Absolutely amazing that these nerf Sorc NB skilless macro one-shoters are still trying to fabricate this ridiculous argument to get more free kills set up for IC.

I would suggest they get off the forums and practice in-game more, because once you have a moderate amount of skill, the counters to BE spamming Sorcs become self-evident.

'Shields from health for Sorcs'?... what laughably transparent self-interest from these FOTM playing 'nerf-herders'...

You realize that you are mostly not talking to nb macro 1 shoters here?

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

And yes Sorc is the only(best) class being capable of having more damage and survivability by increasing damage stats. And now block and dodge has been nerfed. Sorc stays supreme on this subject

One day, one day.... you guys will see the facts and accept it's not the case. But it is not this day!

Please explain to me if you play a stamina build that relies on Rally & Vigor for heals and dodge for avoiding damage, why you would stack HP beyond 20k?

Isn't this same for every stamina build, that more stamina increases both survivability and damage? More stamina, more rolls, bigger heals through vigor + rally.

But let's keep saying how only sorc benefits from it XD.

Ofc, if wards prove OP in PTS (as I hear people saying, don't have access to PTS myself) they will need to be nerfed until they are balanced with other mechanics. But, nerfing them is one thing and making them scale off HP is quite another.

I never saw a nb running around with 14-16 k life and surviving vs 5 ppl sorcs on the other hand... I played one myself on pts with 16 k also I had close to no experience to sorc gameplay I performed surprisingly well vs all enemies I encountered let it be single pve mobs pve mob groups district bosses which I just kited around refreshing my shield from time to time or enemy players

Dracane wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

andypappb16_ESO wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Thats why we are asking to scale it from health. It can still scale better than blazing and ignious but it would be good for stam sorcs and there would be no mages running around with 14 k life in pvp still doing fine thanks to their shields

@Springt-Über-Zwerge

As I suggested 2 people before, you also should read my Post on Page 3 (The HUGE one, cant miss it).
It answers many questions, including why Scaling on Health just CANT work for a sorc.

And I have to agree with you, scaling on Health benefits Stam Sorc BUT!
People dont understand its a little more than just changing the way a shield for sorc works and how it affects many other things.

Well if I had your shield as a templar I would run around with 14k life and 40k magicka in pvp just because I wouldnt need the life but since I dont have it I need 20k+ life without having any benefit from it other than surviving massive burst damage so why should it be different for sorcs?
What I suggest: if sorcs have 20k+ life too they have the same amount of shields the average sorc in pvp has atm that would be no nerf for your shield you would just have to decide between damage and surviveability like every other class has to

No. You Templar can put everything into Magicka or Spell damage and would deal more damage and would have stronger and more heals, Therefore you have damage AND surviveability, Same goes to other classes.
There are so many survivial tools in this game that become more efficient the more points you put into your damage stats.

The Sorcerers tool is his shield. Could you please stop pretending that Sorc is the only class being capable of having more damage and survivieability by increasing damage stats ? Each class does.

Umm heals are only one part of templar defence that is no different for others as a self heal such as healing ward and other heals.
Go ahaed, put all points into magicka, bump it to the moon without any health enchantments for shield. No matter if your flash heal heals for 5k or 50k, any timed cc and burst will kill you if you don't have any active shield as a light armor build.

With 20k health, you have 3k point blazing shield in Cyrodiil. This will not help you to stand ground.
So a templar have to sacrifice his damage and invest into health and/or stamina regen for survivability.

And yes Sorc is the only(best) class being capable of having more damage and survivability by increasing damage stats. And now block and dodge has been nerfed. Sorc stays supreme on this subject

Then you totally misunderstand the meaning of your own class shield. It is not supposed to be used by Magicka Builds, at least not as a full protection. This shield is for Max or high Health Templar tanks, not for Caster tanks, as they have their strong and enduring self heals.

And no again, EACH class can get defense by increasing offensive stats and this is still the case and won't change anytime soon. Yes, Sorcerer have a strong class shield in exchange for having no real self heal or tactic to avoid direct damage.
And this alone doesn't make Sorcs OP. Noooo
And all the other shields are available for everyone. You can use Harness Magicka or/and Steadfast Ward but refuse to do so. Is this the developers fault ? Is it Sorcerer fault ? Nope, your own decision.

To quote you" and no again, EACH class can do this to a specific degree just sorcs can ignore their health and stack max magicka into nirvana. That is what is our problem with sorcs. You can keep you shield strength as it is if it scales from health its just not good to just stack magicka and spellpower anymore like all the other classes. They all have to find their way in between damage and defense only sorcs can stack 1 and gain both
Btw I use ward over bol because bol if not reliable in group pvp I died too many times because my heal hit someone else thanks to intelligent heals

And now guys I'm going on a festival happy argu

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

I never saw a nb running around with 14-16 k life and surviving vs 5 ppl sorcs on the other hand... I played one myself on pts with 16 k also I had close to no experience to sorc gameplay I performed surprisingly well vs all enemies I encountered let it be single pve mobs pve mob groups district bosses which I just kited around refreshing my shield from time to time or enemy players

I never saw a 14k HP Sorc either, because as I explained above 20k HP is pretty much the minimum you can get (Read dem posts). 18k is the lowest i have seen from people who haven't got Undaunted Mettle farmed. And yes I have seen people on live with 18k hp that aren't sorcs, it happens.

On PTS both Hardened Ward and Healing Ward are bugged and ofc damage is reduced. So yeah lower HP builds might be survivable for NBs and Sorcs alike. Until they fix the wards what you really are telling me is:

"I played with a bughed mechanic and found it OP". Duh!

Well the look closely. I saw sorcs running regen bufffood with low life and massive shields.
Its the same issue on life and there they are not bugged.

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

andypappb16_ESO wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Thats why we are asking to scale it from health. It can still scale better than blazing and ignious but it would be good for stam sorcs and there would be no mages running around with 14 k life in pvp still doing fine thanks to their shields

@Springt-Über-Zwerge

As I suggested 2 people before, you also should read my Post on Page 3 (The HUGE one, cant miss it).
It answers many questions, including why Scaling on Health just CANT work for a sorc.

And I have to agree with you, scaling on Health benefits Stam Sorc BUT!
People dont understand its a little more than just changing the way a shield for sorc works and how it affects many other things.

Well if I had your shield as a templar I would run around with 14k life and 40k magicka in pvp just because I wouldnt need the life but since I dont have it I need 20k+ life without having any benefit from it other than surviving massive burst damage so why should it be different for sorcs?
What I suggest: if sorcs have 20k+ life too they have the same amount of shields the average sorc in pvp has atm that would be no nerf for your shield you would just have to decide between damage and surviveability like every other class has to

No. You Templar can put everything into Magicka or Spell damage and would deal more damage and would have stronger and more heals, Therefore you have damage AND surviveability, Same goes to other classes.
There are so many survivial tools in this game that become more efficient the more points you put into your damage stats.

The Sorcerers tool is his shield. Could you please stop pretending that Sorc is the only class being capable of having more damage and survivieability by increasing damage stats ? Each class does.

Umm heals are only one part of templar defence that is no different for others as a self heal such as healing ward and other heals.
Go ahaed, put all points into magicka, bump it to the moon without any health enchantments for shield. No matter if your flash heal heals for 5k or 50k, any timed cc and burst will kill you if you don't have any active shield as a light armor build.

With 20k health, you have 3k point blazing shield in Cyrodiil. This will not help you to stand ground.
So a templar have to sacrifice his damage and invest into health and/or stamina regen for survivability.

And yes Sorc is the only(best) class being capable of having more damage and survivability by increasing damage stats. And now block and dodge has been nerfed. Sorc stays supreme on this subject

Then you totally misunderstand the meaning of your own class shield. It is not supposed to be used by Magicka Builds, at least not as a full protection. This shield is for Max or high Health Templar tanks, not for Caster tanks, as they have their strong and enduring self heals.

And no again, EACH class can get defense by increasing offensive stats and this is still the case and won't change anytime soon. Yes, Sorcerer have a strong class shield in exchange for having no real self heal or tactic to avoid direct damage.
And this alone doesn't make Sorcs OP. Noooo
And all the other shields are available for everyone. You can use Harness Magicka or/and Steadfast Ward but refuse to do so. Is this the developers fault ? Is it Sorcerer fault ? Nope, your own decision.

To quote you" and no again, EACH class can do this to a specific degree just sorcs can ignore their health and stack max magicka into nirvana. That is what is our problem with sorcs. You can keep you shield strength as it is if it scales from health its just not good to just stack magicka and spellpower anymore like all the other classes. They all have to find their way in between damage and defense only sorcs can stack 1 and gain both
Btw I use ward over bol because bol if not reliable in group pvp I died too many times because my heal hit someone else thanks to intelligent heals

2 things:

a) Healing Ward is also an intelligent heal. Are you playing a different game?
b) Stamina builds also stack stamina only. They never move HP past 20k, exactly like Sorcs

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

I never saw a nb running around with 14-16 k life and surviving vs 5 ppl sorcs on the other hand... I played one myself on pts with 16 k also I had close to no experience to sorc gameplay I performed surprisingly well vs all enemies I encountered let it be single pve mobs pve mob groups district bosses which I just kited around refreshing my shield from time to time or enemy players

I never saw a 14k HP Sorc either, because as I explained above 20k HP is pretty much the minimum you can get (Read dem posts). 18k is the lowest i have seen from people who haven't got Undaunted Mettle farmed. And yes I have seen people on live with 18k hp that aren't sorcs, it happens.

On PTS both Hardened Ward and Healing Ward are bugged and ofc damage is reduced. So yeah lower HP builds might be survivable for NBs and Sorcs alike. Until they fix the wards what you really are telling me is:

"I played with a bughed mechanic and found it OP". Duh!

Isnt it that bug only for the bonus value? I mean the 30% one for hardened.
I just made a sorc couple days ago, standart build, nothing special. In Cyro, I have ~7.5k ward tooltip and 30% more on top of that.
When it fixed, it will be like 7.5k plus 70% of that bonus 30% value. So around 9k i suppose.
While blazing shield is maximum 5k shield with 30k health and cp.

Actually problem is blazing shield imo. If someone want to be a tanky while gimping his damage and stack health, then he should have. I mean there is no logic having 30k health and freaking 5k shield in return. Double that value and let there be festival in every corner

Nah I wouldn't want blazing scale from magicka. Templar has(had) unique synergy for stamina builds with blazing shield. Maybe you remember stamplars in 1.5? It was the only good templar build. Though update 6 ruined this build with lowering health values and shield nerfs thanks to the hardened ward.
Anyways, some of you guys asking for a good synergy for stamina sorc builds. This might also fit you. With dodge and block nerfs, this may be the life saver for many stamina builds.
It also allows hybrid builds as well. And 1.7 has its potential for hybrid builds imo, at least for templars I guess.

So it would be best for making all shields scale from health but with 1.5:1:1 health ratio like 1.5 and without battle spirit shield nerf. Also maybe some buffs if one become weaker.

To answer your direct heal argument, Healing Ward is also a direct heal and way better than BoL for self healing. I am currently using it over BoL and I have much better result with it. BoL is just a filler heal currently in pts. Because 10k shield and heal is waaay better than 6k spammable heal. Though it's buggy as well like sorc shield. But I don't think it will be trash when they fix it. It's still a very strong heal and you should not underestimate it.