[PvP] I'm not v14 yet. Do champion points mean I'll never be competitive?

Huggalump · August 2015

I posted this in another thread on the PTS, but it wasn't the point of the thread and it's not the point of the PTS, so I'll migrate my post here.

At the moment, there's no reason for me to pvp because I don't have many champion points. When I go into cyrodiil, I'm significantly weaker than other people using the same gear and skills.

That's fine. Most games have an advantage for long term players. The problem is that there's no catch up mechanic. In WoW, people are geared, but with one lucky drop you can catch up. Or you can just catch up in the next pvp season. In LoL, long term players know the game better, but you can catch up if you learn fast. In ESO, every champion point is 400,000. So now I have 80 cp and you have 300. When I get to 300, you'll have 600. When I get to 600, you'll have 900.... Etc. You'll always be the same distance ahead and I'll always be the wet noodle in a pvp fight.

Is this accurate or am I missing something?

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2015

There working on a catch up mechanic along with a cap but that isn't gonna solve the long term problem since some players have 600, 700, 800+ CP already and with them announcing that there gonna cap it there just gonna grind hard to reach 1000+ and by the time they implement the catch up and cap those players will have way over 1000+. So yes the catch up mechanic will help say the 3rd place guy catch up but only tot he 2nd place guy that has 300+ and not those 1st place with 700+ were the problem lays cause when/if the cap goes live the 3rd and 2nd place guy can only use so much getting that boost while the 1st place guy not only already has those points but have already spent them and is still at that higher advantage and will remain there till a few months even years down the road when the DLC catches up to there level and the cap raises to there level.

So yes there's a catch up mechanic int he work but IDK if putting a cap on Champion will solve the problem.

Zuuman · August 2015

IMHO Champion Points requirement should scale up the more you get same way a lvl require more XP than the last one. It would obviously push away the End but it would give lower players a chance to catch up to those with incredible amount without taking away the feeling of progression of the high CP.

Personofsecrets · August 2015

Short answer. Yes

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO · August 2015

Yes, you will NOT be competitive in PvP without a lot of champion points. You wont even be competitive in PvE either.

They are bringing in a seasonal cap as well as a catch up mechanic. Who knows how long it will take them to implement it tho. It could be 6 months or more away.

Huggalump · August 2015

Man this is depressing. I really want to like this game, but they make it so difficult. And I have a bunch of friends that are thinking about getting the game, but they're all hard core pvpers and there's no way I can recommend they start a game where they'll never have a chance at being competitive.

Dru1076 · August 2015

They are looking into how to introduce cp free campaigns, which means that there is still hope. Brian Wheeler stated in another thread they are working on introducing these, but it will take time. Champion point free campaigns will be optional, and as I understand it there will be a non-vet and a veteran campaign players will able to join if they so choose. I believe they will be very popular.

Huggalump · August 2015

Dru1076 wrote: »

They are looking in how to introduce cp free campaigns, which means that there is still hope. Brian Wheeler stated in another thread they are working on introducing these, but it will take tine. Champion point free campaigns will be optional, and as I understand it there will be a non-vet and a veteran campaign players will able to join if they so choose. I believe they will be very popular.

that would actually be a pretty solid solution

Baconfat79 · August 2015

This is getting blown out of proportion. Will someone with a lot more CP than you own you in PvP? Yeah, they probably will. Will they put up higher DPS than you in endgame PvE? Yeah, they will. Does that mean you can't still play the game and enjoy the hell out of it? Absolutely not. Can you still conplete all endgame content without 1000 CP? Absolutely. Tons of us cleared all of the hardest content in the game BEFORE CP EVEN EXISTED. Sure, it's easier if your whole group has tons of CP, but it doesn't mean that you can't still do it all with minimal or even no CP. Yes, people who have put in more time and effort have an advantage over you, but that's life. Don't let it discourage you. Play the game. Enjoy the game. It'll all be okay. I promise.

Sausage · August 2015

Most tank builds are extremely strong, even some VR1 DK tank is strong as hell.

Mr_Nobody · August 2015

CPs surely dont give that much of advantage that everyone is complaining. Most of the best bonuses sit at 30 and 75 points into a tree. Just because you will die to a person 0 to 100 while he was doing 5% more damage doesnt mean much and it is your own problem.

Huggalump · August 2015

Baconfat79 wrote: »

This is getting blown out of proportion. Will someone with a lot more CP than you own you in PvP? Yeah, they probably will. Will they put up higher DPS than you in endgame PvE? Yeah, they will. Does that mean you can't still play the game and enjoy the hell out of it? Absolutely not. Can you still conplete all endgame content without 1000 CP? Absolutely. Tons of us cleared all of the hardest content in the game BEFORE CP EVEN EXISTED. Sure, it's easier if your whole group has tons of CP, but it doesn't mean that you can't still do it all with minimal or even no CP. Yes, people who have put in more time and effort have an advantage over you, but that's life. Don't let it discourage you. Play the game. Enjoy the game. It'll all be okay. I promise.

[pvp] is in the thread title. I don't care about pve. It's not a problem in pve. The boss still dies, no one really cares. In pvp, balance is important.

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

CPs surely dont give that much of advantage that everyone is complaining. Most of the best bonuses sit at 30 and 75 points into a tree. Just because you will die to a person 0 to 100 while he was doing 5% more damage doesnt mean much and it is your own problem.

But it's not 5%, it's 25%. In damage, regeneration, damage reduction... so many things. These are significant advantages.

Sausage · August 2015

CP itself isnt the problem, in the future theres gonna be IC-gears too with VR and CP advantages. VR1 with green gears vs VR14 legendary gears, thats huge advantage too. Theres no easy fix now, all people need is to wait 8+ month for catch-up system and VR removal, so things turn into good. I think Zen is quite stupid now if they introduce non-CP campaign, unless its non-vet campaign.

Huggalump · August 2015

Sausage wrote: »

CP itself isnt the problem, in the future theres gonna be IC-gears too with VR and CP advantages. VR1 with green gears vs VR14 legendary gears, thats huge advantage too. Theres no easy fix now, all people need is to wait 8+ month for catch-up system and VR removal, so things turn into good. I think Zen is quite stupid now if they introduce non-CP campaign, unless its non-vet campaign.

Gear isn't a problem. You can level up and get that same gear. A never ending CP grind is a problem. You will never catch up to players ahead of you because they're increasing at the same speed you are.

ItsMeToo · August 2015

Yes, you will be competitive in PvP without a lot of champion points. You will even be competitive in PvE.

Just like in Real Life, there are people better than you and there are people worse off.

If you have fun, keep playing. If not, then find something else to have fun with.

rager82b14_ESO · August 2015

Ya you can do fine, and last I heard they are THINKING about a cap. I hope with all the feedback that they won't do it.

F7sus4 · August 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Short answer. Yes

Long answer: Perhaps, but not necessarily - depending on your skill, fluency with your rotation, theorycrafting knowledge etc. For example people playing the same build as I do push 6-8k DPS less on average. Champion Points didn't save them.

d8rmir · August 2015

Alternative answer. Yes. You are missing something.

CP requirements do not scale up the more you get, but CP effectiveness do. You do not need more XP to get one, but it gives a smaller bonus. The first point you spend on a given perk is more effective than, say, the thirtieth.
So the gap between 600 and 900 is actually closer than your current gap.

sadownik · August 2015

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

CPs surely dont give that much of advantage that everyone is complaining. Most of the best bonuses sit at 30 and 75 points into a tree. Just because you will die to a person 0 to 100 while he was doing 5% more damage doesnt mean much and it is your own problem.

You surley know not much about cp system, or perhaps you are one of the fabled gridners yourself?

Leandor · August 2015

CP have a huge influence in equal opportunity 1v1 encounters (a.k.a. duels). Their impact on group vs. group engagements is less, except for a situation where you are in a low CP group versus an equal or higher number of high CP opponents. Since the game is based more on group emcounters, skill and coordination have a much more significant influence.

That is not to say that there is no power creep, only that the doomsayers may exaggerate a bit. Also, the purported changes (cap, catch-up mechanism, low CP campaigns) are all in the "we think about it" phase, which means that there is not only no date given, it is even questionable if they get implemented at all.

Adhere to the advice to just enjoy the game and improve yourself. That way, you will be only stronger if anything of the above mentioned measures will get implemented.

Gidorick · August 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

There working on a catch up mechanic along with a cap but that isn't gonna solve the long term problem since some players have 600, 700, 800+ CP already and with them announcing that there gonna cap it there just gonna grind hard to reach 1000+ and by the time they implement the catch up and cap those players will have way over 1000+. So yes the catch up mechanic will help say the 3rd place guy catch up but only tot he 2nd place guy that has 300+ and not those 1st place with 700+ were the problem lays cause when/if the cap goes live the 3rd and 2nd place guy can only use so much getting that boost while the 1st place guy not only already has those points but have already spent them and is still at that higher advantage and will remain there till a few months even years down the road when the DLC catches up to there level and the cap raises to there level.

So yes there's a catch up mechanic int he work but IDK if putting a cap on Champion will solve the problem.

This is why I really hope they implement something like my catch-up suggestion @Forestd16b14_ESO. With my suggestion, if the top players grind to 1000CP to try to "stay ahead", the lower players will earn CPs even faster than they were when the top players were at 800CP.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/184576/champion-points-catch-up-mechanic-concept/p1

Leandor · August 2015

@Gidorick still missing the slow-down for those far ahead of the average

Imagine the next "horizontal improvement mechanic" they will come up with after the CP are finished... better to extend this system for as long as possible.

Gidorick · August 2015

lol. Indeed I am @Leandor. I would like to add that portion to my thread, can you link us to it here so I can quote your concept?

TheShadowScout · August 2015

Huggalump wrote: »

In ESO, every champion point is 400,000. So now I have 80 cp and you have 300. When I get to 300, you'll have 600. When I get to 600, you'll have 900.... Etc. You'll always be the same distance ahead and I'll always be the wet noodle in a pvp fight.
Is this accurate or am I missing something?

It -is- accurate, and you -are- missing something.
Diminishing returns...
The gap in effect between 80 cp and 300 cp is wide. The gap between 300 cp and 600 cp is much, much narrower. at 600 and 900, narrower still. Yes, the older player will always have some advantage... but at some point, that advantage will be insignificant.

So what if you can kill him in 4.875 blows, and he can kill you in 4.25 blows - whoever first gets that fifth blow in, wins. And accomplishing that requires skill, not c-points.

Just... until you get to the high cp values where the difference becomes insignificant, expect to respawn a lot. Or remember that PvP in ESO is not fixed-group vs. fixed-group, but free for all - just beat their quality with quantity! Bring more friends. Join large war parties, contribute from the sidelines.

Also... while there is no catchup mechanic -now- once the cp gap becomes wider, ZOS will certainly add some. All games eventually do, if only to lure in new players. And it'd be easy enough to do...
"Catchup week, unlimited enlightment for players below 200 cp! Double enlightment for players below 400 cp! No extra gain for players above 400 cp!"
...or go even further then tweaking the enlightment mechanic, and lower cp XP for people... "base 100K expees per c-point for players below 200, base 200K per cp for players below 400, enlightment still counds ×4!"
Heck, at some point they could even give out chunks of c-points wholesale. Finish main story for the first time on a new account? Here, have 50 cp! Finish cadwells silvber for the first time? Here, another 50 cp. et cetera...
If the game progresses, these things will eventually be considered, and something will be implemented, exactly to give new players an option by which they can get within reasonable range of the "old guard".

Leandor · August 2015

@Gidorick Hah, found it. Not as easy as it sounds with my post rate...

Here you go.

Also don't forget @Kas comment on dynamic brackets, that is a serous improvement to the static ranges given in my write up.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · August 2015

I just don't get it. I was competitive at PVP at level 10 with 0 champion points. I'm now a VR4 ... not 14 but 4 ... with a whopping 31 champion points and it's the same way. A good bit of armor, a few points into health (I'm 35 health, and 17 magic at the moment) and PVP is fine.

Not doing things like running face first into a group of people matters way more than your champion points. This is the most blown out of proportion nonsense imaginable. Avoiding something because it's difficult will never make you better.

Huggalump · August 2015

some really insightful posts, especially @Leandor and @TheShadowScout

thanks for the posts guys. Again, I really want to like this game because I'm a massive Elder scrolls fanboy, a pvp addict, and this game has some mechanics that I think are rad as hell. I just hit V13 and I have a decent idea of how to get geared when I'm v14. We'll see how it goes!

Leandor · August 2015

Remember to not spend too much on V14 equipment. With Imperial City scheduled to be released in a month, the cap will be raised to V16 and the stuff need upgraded again.

skillastat · August 2015

200CP PRO > 1000 CP NOOB

markt84 · August 2015

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I just don't get it. I was competitive at PVP at level 10 with 0 champion points. I'm now a VR4 ... not 14 but 4 ... with a whopping 31 champion points and it's the same way. A good bit of armor, a few points into health (I'm 35 health, and 17 magic at the moment) and PVP is fine.

Not doing things like running face first into a group of people matters way more than your champion points. This is the most blown out of proportion nonsense imaginable. Avoiding something because it's difficult will never make you better.

It's not blown out of proportion, and no one is saying to avoid PvP. Champion points makes a HUGE difference. I've played PvP from level 10-v1 straight through, came back after the beat the game and hit v2. I love PvP and have no plans of leaving PvP until the Orc city dlc drops, but to say champion point don't matter is just false. If you don't think they do, you just haven't fought anyone with enough of them yet. Those PC transfers are crazy powerful, and the sorcs are the worst. That shield maxed with champion points is crazy op. Takes 8 dudes with a constant attack to even break through it let alone kill him.

But to the guys post. Yes champion points are a HUGE advantage, but on consoles there isn't a ton of dudes with an insane amount of them to kill the fun of PvP. If you do run into one of the v14 crazy CPs dudes, just don't be alone. I couldn't imagine trying to be a new player and play PvP on PC. Must be miserable for them

washlov · August 2015

CP farmers will dominate easy the leaderboards and PVP
new players will never have a chance and will leave
tha gap is huge
sad that a boring chinafarmer system dominate the game