0 stam regen while blocking and shifts in power vs straight up nerf

Wing · August 2015

I actually hate the term nerf and have had discussions with other game developers over the interesting fact that the mere act of reducing anything within a game even if it is for the sake of balance has a derogatory term associated with it.

this time however it deserves it so I will do my best to explain why this is an ill thought out change and inept balancing tactic. to the best of my ability anyway, ZoS never gave specific reasons for the change, has avoided any and all topics on the subject, and only ever presented the change with vague and unspecific terminology that is personal in nature rather mechanical / statistical such as "not fun" and "problem".

-first I would like to point out that this change is not targeting and does nothing to stop block casting, you will still have more then enough capability to block cast when you need to and continue to do full damage, that was not the intent of this change as its specifically going after *long term* blocking. there are many ways to attack blocking and this change specifically targets its longevity, nothing else.

-second is that this change is specifically because of PvP, anyone that says otherwise is just trying to kid you or themselves. this entire update is overall very PvP centric and that's obvious, if it was as much of a problem as people claim they would have done anything in the past oh I don't know, half a year, to change it. but with the reduced damage in PvP blocking would reduce the damage too far below acceptable levels.

-third is that anyone in support of this idea does not actually support this idea and has ulterior motives behind supporting it. why can I say this? because it was not a power shift, power shifts take power from one source and add it somewhere else to better support intended gameplay. this was simply gutting, nothing but removal of a mechanic with no compensation, and I can tell you for a fact no human being likes to simply loose something without gaining anything in return, its just the way people are.

so why is this such garbage and so inept?

-well for one ZoS is sending mixed messages on the subject, the claim blocking is such a problem and that this particular tactic is not fun, then add in a new set in the from of black rose that tries to maintain said tactic that is apparently such a problem. . .BWAH? this is at best confusing and at worst a money grab (remove essential mechanic and put means to get said mechanic back behind a pay wall.

-next we have that for some reason stamina regen is now pretty useless on tanks. magicka users get more out of pumping stamina regen then tanks do. because if a tank ever blocks (even on accident) they loose all stamina regen for 2 seconds, meaning you get nothing from any bonuses you added to your stamina regen, be that racial bonuses, set bonuses, armor bonuses, passives, drinks, etc. all if it does nothing and has no benefit at all.

-and finally the fact that players are clever and people are like water, we will always find the path of least resistance and if something is made to hard we will break it or simply go around it, humans are clever like that. already we are seeing builds pop up that simply ignore stamina regen and use other skills or concepts to bypass or negate the gutting of stamina regen altogether. people are not working with the new mechanic, they are simply going around it (as they should cause its stupid)

a proper shift in power would have caused people to WANT to use whatever new mechanics were in place and be happy about it, it would have given something back somewhere else that changed the way you play for the better and made the overall experience more enjoyable for everyone.

a garbage straight up gutting of a mechanic that gives nothing back and comes only with the response of "deal with it" is simply bad and a sign of an inept balance team.

Personofsecrets · August 2015

Thank you Wing.

Armitas · August 2015

Well said.

I run 5light. I already have to break free every 5 seconds, roll/dodge out of someones dedicated bombard spam between each break free and eat the 1.6 block cost increase with no inherent stamina management. Now I have to worry about roll dodge costing more and block being a fatal choice. Formerly I could have chosen to bash instead of block, but now so many things are not interruptible. So instead I'm stuck with the choice of blocking to stop the damage or eating it and healing to save the stamina for the inevitable CC break that if I fail to perform will kill me.

They should stick to the roll dodge nerf for this update, see how that goes then mess with block next time. Doing both and hitting stamina twice on the same update is inadvisable and reckless.

I forgot to mention talons, get ready cause its coming back hard after 1.7 because of the power lash synergy and roll nerf. You are going to need every drop of stamina.

HungryHobo · August 2015

What if they halved/quartered/ or multiplied by some fraction of 1 and reduce stamina regen while blocking? What about an exponential growth in stamina cost per attack blocked while you block that stacks.. for 2 seconds.. or 4 seconds...?

While I do not disagree with you, you bring up this idea of power "shifting". They are shifting a lot of power away from blocking. They aren't adding it anywhere else, but they are shifting it none the less.

A reason I am in support of the change is simply because of this fact: It is a change that is in the direction of where it needs to go (more skill based). There have been a lot of posts about perma blockers in the past, and it hasn't changed much has it? They are changing it now... Drastically!

A reason I'm NOT in favor of this change: The iterative process ZOS (and most large game designers have these days are guilty of this) is far too slow for us players. This change will shift the power pendulum far away from blocking... It should swing back though, and back again until a fairly stable balance is achieved.

You open up saying "I actually hate the term nerf..." and I think to myself, "Okay, we have a reasonable post here," yet it really was a spew of talking points. I don't think blocking should be a thing you can keep up 100%, but I don't think it should stop your stam regen 100% for 2 seconds if you press it for 1 second.

I know you're probably frustrated. Just I feel constructive criticism on ideas such as this will have a better chance of being reviewed than a stream of negativity without any real changes proposed... that is all I see on the forum anymore too.

Wing · August 2015

i actually don't thing blocking should be up 100% either, and i can understand exactly what they are *trying* to do but they are not doing a good job of it.

some constructive points then.

obviously they want to shift power from constant blocking, and make blocking situational for specific attacks such as charged abilities like uppercut and what not. fine, we can design around that.

first I would not touch regen, we can build around the above idea through the mechanics of blocking rather then secondary effects such as regen, as nerfing regen screws over a lot more then just blocking.

so blocking stopping secondary effects is just fine, however I think the damage reduction is something we could look at. perhaps the flat 50% needs adjusting. something to the effect of keeping the aprox 50% for channeled attacks (such as uppercut and certain boss attacks) but reducing down to more around 25% for flat blocking.

next, as all we have done is in fact reduce its power, we are going to shift that power somewhere else.

this can be done a few ways, but my personal choice would be to put that power into mitigating slightly more damage while we are not blocking, this could be done through heavy armor or sword and board passives, but here are some ideas.

-change the heavy armor passive that reduces the cost of blocking to provide flat damage reduction such as the nord passive from anywhere from 5-10% to 10-20% this also further shifts power from blocking.

-add in a block mechanic that increase your flat damage reduction or increases your armor / spell resist after you block an attack for a duration.

etc. etc.

things can be done, stamina to 0 was lazy and un fun.

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2015

I support the idea of 0 stamina when blocking it means you have to know how to tank now but yes this will NOT solve the block casting problem which is the real root of this problem and even why ZoS is doing this change.

ZoS the community has spoken and most of them do not like block casting please grey out skills when blocking or do you really only listen to the streamers and youtubers and what they say cause if that's the case I'll gladly take up streaming and youtubeing if it mean you listen to what the community says instead of what a few streamers say.

Tannus15 · August 2015

I agree, mostly with the lack of balance in this change.

There is no effort in compensation. There is no increase of stamona regen in heavy armour or 1h shield passives to balance the fact that an entire stat has become basically useless for a tank.

There is no 'heavy attacks with 1h/sheild have +40% stamina return' similar to restoration staffs.
There is no stamina cost reduction in 1h/shield line to balance the fact that tanks will have less stamina.

This whole effort feels very heavy handed and unfair to the laymen like myself and the dev reassurances that 'it's more fun' have a ring of 'daddy knows best'. What, I'm not having enough fun on live at the moment? Sorry, I didn't realise the game was so unenjoyable to play.

Personofsecrets · August 2015

Wing wrote: »

-change the heavy armor passive that reduces the cost of blocking to provide flat damage reduction such as the nord passive from anywhere from 5-10% to 10-20% this also further shifts power from blocking.

Damage mitigation is really bad in this game due to the diminished returns of that mitigation after blocking with a shield.

Changing that specific heavy armor passive in that way would be crippling toward tanks sustain and not give them much in return.

sabresandiego_ESO · August 2015

No stamina regeneration while blocking is the best change in the entire patch. Nothing was more *** than holding down the right mouse button forever and then taunting every few seconds. This change single handedly makes tanking more exciting in PVE, and removes permablock from PVP.

Is tanking harder now? Yes, ofcourse it is but it is also significantly more fun and more rewarding. Get over it and adapt.

Personofsecrets · August 2015

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

No stamina regeneration while blocking is the best change in the entire patch.

Then why do so many people not want it? Usually people want the best for themselves.

Ezareth · August 2015

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

No stamina regeneration while blocking is the best change in the entire patch. Nothing was more *** than holding down the right mouse button forever and then taunting every few seconds. This change single handedly makes tanking more exciting in PVE, and removes permablock from PVP.

Is tanking harder now? Yes, ofcourse it is but it is also significantly more fun and more rewarding. Get over it and adapt.

I don't think you understand how the mechanic works now Sabre.

You get hit with the penalty for a single block.

You get hit with the penalty for bash.

Any time you block for even a split second you reset the timer on your regen tick and lose thousands of stam.

It basically took the fun out of all the block mechnics as it rarely is worth it to block now.

I hated the right mouse button permablockers as well but their solution is worse than the problem.

vortexman11 · August 2015

You can still perma block, you've just gotta be a bit more creative with your builds. As for doing DPS while perma blocking, I have yet to figure that out again, but still I can confirm that if you really wanted to...you can still perma block.

Wing · August 2015

vortexman11 wrote: »

You can still perma block, you've just gotta be a bit more creative with your builds. As for doing DPS while perma blocking, I have yet to figure that out again, but still I can confirm that if you really wanted to...you can still perma block.

I sort of hinted at this in my first post.

they did not fix blocking at all, they nerfed stamina. until they actually fix the mechanics behind blocking we will always find a way.

Wing · August 2015

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

No stamina regeneration while blocking is the best change in the entire patch. Nothing was more *** than holding down the right mouse button forever and then taunting every few seconds. This change single handedly makes tanking more exciting in PVE, and removes permablock from PVP.

Is tanking harder now? Yes, ofcourse it is but it is also significantly more fun and more rewarding. Get over it and adapt.

post dissection:

your two characters listed in your bio are:
-sorcerer
-nightblade

neither of those are known for tanking (nb siphon tank was good but just got gutted as well) and are widely considered to be the most over performing dps classes in pvp for magicka and stamina respectively.

what can I gleam from this?
-you don't tank
-you dps in PvP

you also specifically mention perma blocking in pvp, further evidence that you PvP and obvious evidence that perma blocking annoys you.

end hypotheses?

what your getting out of this is being able to deal with, or no longer see tanks in PvP, and you really don't care about PvE tanking because that is someone else's problem, you win.

asteldian · August 2015

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

No stamina regeneration while blocking is the best change in the entire patch. Nothing was more *** than holding down the right mouse button forever and then taunting every few seconds. This change single handedly makes tanking more exciting in PVE, and removes permablock from PVP.

Is tanking harder now? Yes, ofcourse it is but it is also significantly more fun and more rewarding. Get over it and adapt.

Except DK can still perma block, NB can perma block, Sorc needs to time when to cast Dark Deal but can mostly block all the time (casting Dark deal is better than waiting for 4s for 2 regen ticks or trying to pull off heavy attacks) Templar has to have bodies to keep stam up. Basically this change hit Templar hardest and is not overly favorable for Sorcs. All it has done is create a power gap, not resolve perma blocking.

manny254 · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

No stamina regeneration while blocking is the best change in the entire patch. Nothing was more *** than holding down the right mouse button forever and then taunting every few seconds. This change single handedly makes tanking more exciting in PVE, and removes permablock from PVP.

Is tanking harder now? Yes, ofcourse it is but it is also significantly more fun and more rewarding. Get over it and adapt.

I don't think you understand how the mechanic works now Sabre.

You get hit with the penalty for a single block.

You get hit with the penalty for bash.

Any time you block for even a split second you reset the timer on your regen tick and lose thousands of stam.

It basically took the fun out of all the block mechnics as it rarely is worth it to block now.

I hated the right mouse button permablockers as well but their solution is worse than the problem.

Are you sure this is how it works? I have not tested this my self, but this is what someone has told me they tested.

Regen ticks every two seconds. If you are blocking when the regen tick happens you get no stamina. In theory if you had a very precise macro or add on you could release block the millisecond the tick happens to get regen.

Wisler89 · August 2015

Reading the forum since PTS-release I came to the following conclusions:

People who play PvP are largely in favor of 0 stam regen. Sure some are annoyed about it but most like this change.

The (I guess) top 10-20% PvE players don't really care. I'm on the EU server, so I couldn't really try out very much with my guild, but we already have several ideas how to work around this change and will test these ideas once we get our chars copied to the pts. I'm guessing many of the better PvE players are of a similar mindset.

Fortunately there are a few of these PvE players who think of the vast majority of players: I'm calling them "the average player" here. A group consisting of an average tank, an average healer and 2 average dds won't have any chance to clear about half of the vet dungeons with this change. If you have 2 (or 3, tank/healer hybrid is thing these days) dds who each deal 20k+ damage, most fights are over in 30 secs top. I don't think the tank has to behave differently in 2.1 in this case. But what if the dds only deal 6-8k dps? And I'm quite sure most players don't get much higher dps.

I honestly don't want to think about trials.

But the people I like the most (do you feel the sarcasm?) are those who say: "You have to know when to block". I have a question for them: Have you ever tanked in trials? Manticore, Serpent, Axes in Archives, Warrior, these bosses can kill you through block if you are not careful. And now you have to release block? Manticore for example hits with about 9k light attack, if I block. The heavy attack for more then twice that. With 0 stam regen while blocking, I will have to release block and use heavy attacks (maybe shards from templar will be enough but I don't hold my breath). One mistake from the tank or the healer and the group wipes. I honestly don't see the fun in this.

On another note, did they really have to gut my NB-Tank? But, since they changed dark exchange, maybe I can tank on my sorc from now on? We will see :P

Bashev · August 2015

manny254 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

No stamina regeneration while blocking is the best change in the entire patch. Nothing was more *** than holding down the right mouse button forever and then taunting every few seconds. This change single handedly makes tanking more exciting in PVE, and removes permablock from PVP.

Is tanking harder now? Yes, ofcourse it is but it is also significantly more fun and more rewarding. Get over it and adapt.

I don't think you understand how the mechanic works now Sabre.

You get hit with the penalty for a single block.

You get hit with the penalty for bash.

Any time you block for even a split second you reset the timer on your regen tick and lose thousands of stam.

It basically took the fun out of all the block mechnics as it rarely is worth it to block now.

I hated the right mouse button permablockers as well but their solution is worse than the problem.

Are you sure this is how it works? I have not tested this my self, but this is what someone has told me they tested.

Regen ticks every two seconds. If you are blocking when the regen tick happens you get no stamina. In theory if you had a very precise macro or add on you could release block the millisecond the tick happens to get regen.

It doesn't work how your friend told you. It works exactly as @Ezareth described.

Wing · August 2015

as others above me have stated, it is indeed true that anytime anyone with any weapon goes to block any attack for a mere second or bash to counter an attack, you reset your stamina timer, this can be a loss of hundreds to thousands of stamina on top of the cost of blocking and the cost of the bash.

but what do you expect from an ill thought and poorly implemented change *shrug* you act like they give a s**t. I feel especially sorry for the noobs who wont know how to adapt or read the forums, get rekt.

Armitas · August 2015

I never really saw permablocking as a real issue, more of an annoyance. I have run into my share of permablockers that I could not kill in my current build. However those same permablockers got to watch me massacre everyone in their group and there isn't a thing they could do about it. They are useless to their group, they are useless to their alliance, they are useless to themselves. They are in this build because they can't survive any other way, it's a crutch. (Those who forward tank for their alliance are an asset)

Conceptually an unkillable build is bad, conceptually permablocking a tank role in PvE is uninteresting. So something should be done, but it's by no means a pressing issue that demands change. Certainly not one this drastic, and certainly not 2 stamina nerfs in the same patch when you have 3 different build types (H/M/L) one of which has nothing to help buffer against either of these stamina hits.

As Vort pointed out you can still permablock, so those same players that can't get along in cyrodiil are going to just move into that build and still be useless to their alliance while not dying. Why do we always have to destroy an entire forest in this game to cut down a single tree?

DDuke · August 2015

Is this the 4th or 5th QQ thread you create about this?

Some people don't like the change, some people do.

The game is now balanced around the concept of no infinite resources, no matter what your playstyle is.
I suggest you deal with it.

Tankqull · August 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

No stamina regeneration while blocking is the best change in the entire patch.

Then why do so many people not want it? Usually people want the best for themselves.

why do you not like putting your puppy to sleep even though it has a severe form of cancer?
because noone like to lose sth s/he was customed to or in worst case loved - even when it is for the better...

Artheiron · August 2015

0 stamina regen while blocking indeed helped dks to become ineffective
but (imo) there was another way
Can it be done technically? I don't know. just an idea.

instead of making stam regen 0 while blocking why not make block only work for frontal attacks? so people who hits you behind bypasses your block. you keep 1v1s alive. pve alive. 1vX history.

same thing for the shields. instead of nerfing bolt escape cost, you'd be likely hitting the sorc that spams bolt escape from behind anyway.

Darnathian · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

No stamina regeneration while blocking is the best change in the entire patch. Nothing was more *** than holding down the right mouse button forever and then taunting every few seconds. This change single handedly makes tanking more exciting in PVE, and removes permablock from PVP.

Is tanking harder now? Yes, ofcourse it is but it is also significantly more fun and more rewarding. Get over it and adapt.

I don't think you understand how the mechanic works now Sabre.

You get hit with the penalty for a single block.

You get hit with the penalty for bash.

Any time you block for even a split second you reset the timer on your regen tick and lose thousands of stam.

It basically took the fun out of all the block mechnics as it rarely is worth it to block now.

I hated the right mouse button permablockers as well but their solution is worse than the problem.

Thank you for that. Honesty from the other side of the fence.

However, maybe you can answer why it is even a problem. There are no dk YouTube videos anymore. I don't get the issue. I haven't heard anyone give a reason why it's bad to Permablocking. Just helps us stay alive a little longer. Still lose most fights one on one against nb and sorc right now.

WolfingHour · August 2015

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

No stamina regeneration while blocking is the best change in the entire patch. Nothing was more *** than holding down the right mouse button forever and then taunting every few seconds. This change single handedly makes tanking more exciting in PVE, and removes permablock from PVP.

Is tanking harder now? Yes, ofcourse it is but it is also significantly more fun and more rewarding. Get over it and adapt.

That is your gameplay choice. You actively chose not do anything while blocking and taunting and there is a whole lot more that you could be doing with your resources - heal, DPS, cc or all of the above.

What you get now is an just micromanaging a single resource with little room to do anything else.

How is that an improvement?

Wing · August 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Is this the 4th or 5th QQ thread you create about this?

Some people don't like the change, some people do.

The game is now balanced around the concept of no infinite resources, no matter what your playstyle is.
I suggest you deal with it.

I think its my third, I was hoping one of these or maybe one of the countless others would have provoked a response from ZoS but I don't think they want to T-bag this beehive.

a few do, and most don't, and that's before they wave of threads when this does his live and all the average players and noobs that don't read the forums or even know about the change and are getting bent over come and post threads.

actually no its not, resources have been out of control since 1.6 and the only thing ZoS has done is gut specific skills / actions that are most "problematic" given infinite resources, such as but not restricted to:

-bolt escape
-roll dodge
-ward
-blocking
-etc.

none of these were a problem in 1.5, ZoS made them a problem then gutted them.

AhPook_Is_Here · August 2015

Don't know why they never put a combo breaker in this game. If bash stunned blocking targets then you wouldn't need this PVE nerf. I can't say I care too much either way, my NB will be locked and loaded come live and I am long done with all the PVE in this game anyway.

Xsorus · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

No stamina regeneration while blocking is the best change in the entire patch. Nothing was more *** than holding down the right mouse button forever and then taunting every few seconds. This change single handedly makes tanking more exciting in PVE, and removes permablock from PVP.

Is tanking harder now? Yes, ofcourse it is but it is also significantly more fun and more rewarding. Get over it and adapt.

I don't think you understand how the mechanic works now Sabre.

You get hit with the penalty for a single block.

You get hit with the penalty for bash.

Any time you block for even a split second you reset the timer on your regen tick and lose thousands of stam.

It basically took the fun out of all the block mechnics as it rarely is worth it to block now.

I hated the right mouse button permablockers as well but their solution is worse than the problem.

Not to mention it basically gimped Stamina Block Builds vs Magicka ones.

While Magicka ones get the block penalty they're not losing DPS by the fact their Magicka regen isn't stopping like Stamina is while Blocking.

Stalwart385 · August 2015

I say keep posting these no matter what the haters say. I never was a fan of the change and would be happy to see a compromise.

- Stam regen being useless to tanks makes no sense
- The stam loss in pvp for tapping a timed block is broken in large fights (loss from blocking multiple hits and loosing the regen ticks). Your better off not blocking at all in pvp, the mechanic is broken. 1x1 its still viable though. At least remove the anti blocking skills that are unneeded now.
- DK tanks rellying on mana resources to stricly tank makes no sense (the more you spam shields the more you perma block). Gimpy tank builds will be the new meta. Seducer is one of the better tank sets =/. And not for utility or dps.
- Templar tanks are screwed.

I've adapted to the change and have tanked the new content. Ive read and watched other tanks do the content. I can't say its more fun. I think its limiting and an annoyance.

The best fix Ive seen out there is giving full heavy armor a 50% regen while blocking passive. It stops stam builds from perma blocking while block casting big dps. It cuts the ability to perma block in half. It eliminates the regen tick issue by tapping block (since its still counting). And it still gives tanks a reason to have stam regen.

redspecter23 · August 2015

I have to agree with the OP. I've already been toying around with a number of tanking ideas that just completely ignore blocking now. You've explained very clearly the reasons why people may just simply abandon block based tanks completely and find a new path of least resistance. This change may cause a PVE metagame shift completely away from tank blocking because of the huge penalty associated with it. Players might just find new interesting ways to mitigate damage and blocking could be a thing of the past.

In their effort to nerf block based tanks, ZOS might just have some other flavor of the month tank they'll have to deal with while effecitvely removing all desire to want to block even for dps toons, especially stamina dps toons.

Wing · August 2015

also lets all bow our heads in silence for a moment, RIP twin sisters, you were an interesting niche set once upon a time.